Do the Red Sox still do the Beckett trade if they know what Hanley Ramirez would be?

[RP]

I think Ramirez is amazing. I love Beckett too. But Beckett tends to be epic in the post season. Infact, i think i'd want Beckett over anyone in a game 7. But Hanley Ramirez is ungodly great and in 2 years, he's going to be talked about amongst the all time greats. And he's young as fuck.

If you're the Red Sox GM. Knowing what you know now. Do you still make this trade?

I'm not sure yet.

[Hardkore Kidd J]

No, I would of definately kept Hanley but I would of tried to get Beckett too using other prospects.

[Jeritron]

They knew Hanley was going to be great. It was a quid pro quo trade. They wouldn't have won the world series in 07 if they hadn't made it, so it worked out.

I don't know if it would happen the same now, because of Hanley's performance. Beckett's one of the best pitchers in the majors when he's on, like in 07 and this year.
He's inconsistent though, and occasionally has a bad stretch.

I think that'd put the nix on things. I think it's a wash either way. It was a win-win situation

[Jeritron]

Also hard to predict the future of how a player will perform in different markets. I'm not saying Hanley wouldn't have been as great here in Boston, but there's the possibility that he wouldn't.
Look at Edgar Renteria, or other players that made the cross over from small market NL teams to the Red Sox or Yankees. Some flourish, and some can't handle it. Maybe Hanley wouldn't be as good as he is.

Either way, shortstop has been a weak spot for the Sox ever since Orlando Cabrera left. I wish they didn't let him go, but there were reasons.
Ever since they've had awful luck at that position. Hanley would fit in nicely there.

[RP]

Ofcourse they knew how talented Hanley was. But noone knew how talented he'd be in the bigs. It was assumed he would be amazing, but there have been huge busts before. This Red Sox team right now sucks imo. No really great players on it. It really misses a guy like Hanley Ramirez. It misses that guy they can build around. Put a Youk and Pedroia and a aging Ortiz around. Beckett will come through in the playoffs. The question is, will they make the playoffs. Also, imagine having Hanley still and not having Beckett, but hacing Lester come along like he has and having Buckholtz smoking people in the minors and ready to be called up. The future would be a lot brighter then it is now.

[Jeritron]

That situation is not to different from the Halladay scenario. What matters more, a world series this year, or a world series 5 years from now?

How good will a prospect be? What if he's an MVP, what if he's a bust? What if things change with the existing team through injury and free agency, and we have the chance to get someone of his caliber through signing anyways?
At some point you can't call the future. In a way, it's foolish to horde prospects when you have no clue how they will factor in 5 years down the line. A lot can change.

Sometimes a prospects only worth their hype. They can either gain value or lose value based on how they actually play. Being able to trade a guy based on predictions for someone of proven value is great, especially if they don't work out for the other team.

I think that's the big question with Bucholz. Do you risk dealing away a potential Cy Young caliber pitcher, or do you pull the trigger and get great value out of a guy who ends up never amounting to anything?

[Jeritron]

Ofcourse they knew how talented Hanley was. But noone knew how talented he'd be in the bigs. It was assumed he would be amazing, but there have been huge busts before. This Red Sox team right now sucks imo. No really great players on it. It really misses a guy like Hanley Ramirez. It misses that guy they can build around. Put a Youk and Pedroia and a aging Ortiz around. Beckett will come through in the playoffs. The question is, will they make the playoffs. Also, imagine having Hanley still and not having Beckett, but hacing Lester come along like he has and having Buckholtz smoking people in the minors and ready to be called up. The future would be a lot brighter then it is now.

They're on a bad stretch but they certainly don't suck. Verdict is still out on Bucholz.
No we have Beckett AND Lester, and a one two punch like that means more in playoff baseball than any hitter.

Youk and Pedroia are definitely great. Bay's on a slump.

I dunno, I wouldn't call a five game slide the end of the world. Their pitching is deep. A week ago everyone in the baseball media was picking them to win the world series, now it's panic mode.
I wouldn't worry about them not making the postseason. Even if the Yankees win the division they are still in great shape to win the wildcard, and that's what they won both times they won the world series.

[Hardkore Kidd J]

Also hard to predict the future of how a player will perform in different markets. I'm not saying Hanley wouldn't have been as great here in Boston, but there's the possibility that he wouldn't.
Look at Edgar Renteria, or other players that made the cross over from small market NL teams to the Red Sox or Yankees. Some flourish, and some can't handle it. Maybe Hanley wouldn't be as good as he is.

Either way, shortstop has been a weak spot for the Sox ever since Orlando Cabrera left. I wish they didn't let him go, but there were reasons.
Ever since they've had awful luck at that position. Hanley would fit in nicely there.


I disagree . I think Boston's best shortstop may have been Nomar Garciaparra without a doubt. I really think the short stop position has been weak since he left,

[Jeritron]

I do agree that next offseason the Red Sox should really look at getting a cleanup guy. Youk and Pedroia are amazing all around ballplayers, but they work better when they're surrounding a guy like Manny was, and they see way better pitches.
That's when the Sox lineup is dominant.

Bay will be up for free agency. It really depends on how he does in the next couple months. Last month was great, but this month has been awful for him.
Unless he has a monster run through the postseason I think they might be better off letting his salary go and looking for a new powerhouse.

[Jeritron]

I disagree . I think Boston's best shortstop may have been Nomar Garciaparra without a doubt. I really think the short stop position has been weak since he left,

First of all, I didn't say Cabrera was Boston's best shortstop.

I said the position has had problems ever since he left. Nomar left before Cabrera, in that same trade. Even then Nomar was declining and his injuries were hurting the team.

The fact is, it has been weak since Cabrera left. You can't tell me it was weak while he was there. They won the 2004 world series and Cabrera was hitting like hell, and playing amazing defense. He was a big part of that massive second half charge they made, and their posteason success.

[Jeritron]

They would have kept him too, but Manny Ramirez made a big stink that he be let go because of personal reasons involving his wife.

[Hardkore Kidd J]

First of all, I didn't say Cabrera was Boston's best shortstop.

I said the position has had problems ever since he left. Nomar left before Cabrera, in that same trade. Even then Nomar was declining and his injuries were hurting the team.

The fact is, it has been weak since Cabrera left. You can't tell me it was weak while he was there. They won the 2004 world series and Cabrera was hitting like hell, and playing amazing defense. He was a big part of that massive second half charge they made, and their posteason success.

Ya, see I didn't know that Nomar left before Cabrera did. I can't tell you that Cabrera was weak because he wasn't in 2004 they went all out and won the World Series. There is no denying that Cabrera was their last good shortstop.

Was there any shortstop after him from 2005 -present that wasn't DFA'D /was a really bad shortstop?

[Jeritron]

I gave it some though and I voted yes because....

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x97/soxanddawgs/Red%20Sox%20pics/worldserieschamps.jpg

Nothing's guarunteed. Even if Hanley was as good in Boston as he is in Florida, that doesn't guaruntee team success. It just means theres an amazing hitter in the lineup. We see lots of teams with players of his caliber go without winning. There's no way to tell how the whole team chemistry and success would have worked out.

As far as what actually happened goes, it worked out. I can't dwell on might have beens. I think it's basically a fact that without that deal they wouldn't have won the world series that year.
Lowell was incredible, and the world series MVP.
Beckett had a monster season, and an even more epic postseason. They let us come back from 3-1 against the Indians.

Also, Beckett was robbed out of a Cy Young that year. No way should Sabathia had won.

Obviously the postseason doesn't factor on the voting, but watching Beckett dominate the Indians and Sabathia fall apart against the Red Sox made it even more obvious.

[McLegend]

Yes. You won a World Series because of Josh Beckett.

There is no guarantee you get a world series with Hanley Ramirez. Boston does that trade every time.

[Jeritron]

Ya, see I didn't know that Nomar left before Cabrera did. I can't tell you that Cabrera was weak because he wasn't in 2004 they went all out and won the World Series. There is no denying that Cabrera was their last good shortstop.

Was there any shortstop after him from 2005 -present that wasn't DFA'D /was a really bad shortstop?

Well, Renteria wasn't awful. He was just dissapointing. He was under a lot of pressure and unhappy. I guess he just wasn't the right type of player. It definitely effected his fielding too.
I think they should have given him another year, but I guess it really just wasn't working out.

Lugo was a HUGE fail. Not even getting into that.

Jed Lowrie and Nick Green, are again, okay. Just mediocre though. They're good by the positions standards basically anywhere else, but on a championship contender team it just doesn't cut it.

Alex Cora pretty much falls into the same boat as Lowrie and Green.

[Jeritron]

Gotta keep Lowell in this conversation. I think most people are forgetting about him. Sure, he's injury plauged now and is at the end of his career, but he was just an afterthough to the deal for Florida.

He was a huge steal, since his 2007 season was great, and his posteason was monstorous. That one year of performance makes him a major factor in how good the deal was, since he was a sweetener that ended up playing at MVP caliber during a title year.

[Jeritron]

Speaking of great Red Sox trades:

Heathcliff Slocumb to the Mariners for Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe.

Ended up being an epic trade for us.

[Hardkore Kidd J]

Well, Renteria wasn't awful. He was just dissapointing. He was under a lot of pressure and unhappy. I guess he just wasn't the right type of player. It definitely effected his fielding too.
I think they should have given him another year, but I guess it really just wasn't working out.

Lugo was a HUGE fail. Not even getting into that.

Jed Lowrie and Nick Green, are again, okay. Just mediocre though. They're good by the positions standards basically anywhere else, but on a championship contender team it just doesn't cut it.

Alex Cora pretty much falls into the same boat as Lowrie and Green.

I wasn't counting Lowrie. I have seen so little of him at Shortstop that I just didn't count him. And Nick Green has been doing ok.

And Mike Lowell is just spectacular. That Mike Lowell/Beckett deal has payed off in the long run.

[Emperor Smeat]

Gotta keep Lowell in this conversation. I think most people are forgetting about him. Sure, he's injury plauged now and is at the end of his career, but he was just an afterthough to the deal for Florida.

He was a huge steal, since his 2007 season was great, and his posteason was monstorous. That one year of performance makes him a major factor in how good the deal was, since he was a sweetener that ended up playing at MVP caliber during a title year.

I've heard so much that the trade was basically one of those rare occassions where both teams ended up benefiting equally in the long run and I agree with that view. The key was the trade had a Beckett equal a Ramirez, so its really the extra stuff in the deal that would be the real "key" parts. Since Lowell basically had a monster season and a huge reason why they were able to win it during a year where both Manny and Ortiz had a slow season production wise , he ended up being the difference maker.

Of course the whole deal was Red Sox were willing to sacrifice the SS position they never had stable since maybe early 2000s while Marlins were willing to sacrifice a good reason they were able to win with pitching in 2003.

[Triple Naitch]

I gave it some though and I voted yes because....

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x97/soxanddawgs/Red%20Sox%20pics/worldserieschamps.jpg



Yes. You won a World Series because of Josh Beckett.

There is no guarantee you get a world series with Hanley Ramirez. Boston does that trade every time.


These 2. :y:

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Great pitcher > great offensive player, just because it seems so much harder to get an ace than all star offensive player. Plus the Red Sox won a World Series with Beckett and it's not like he was that old when they made the trade. Still has a lot of years left

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Not to mention the Red Sox had other prospects they kept and have ended up becoming stars. Most notably Pedoria who already has 1 MVP.