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Ol Dirty Dastard
07-29-2009, 08:06 PM
And in case people are going to start crying about how this should be in our "little mma sub forum" this is from wrestling observer, and pretty much, mostly wrestling is talked about. So that's my pre-emptive "stop whining" attack on you.


Joe Babinsack on wrestling fans moving to MMA
Are we all becoming MMA fans or what?

I can start dropping names, and having fun with it all, but the reality is, I’m more a MMA guy today than a wrestling guy, and it’s becoming hard to deny. Last month, I got a journalist pass to the UCFC “Rumble on the Rivers” event, the first major MMA card in Pittsburgh PA – and arguably the state, as Pittsburgh trumps Philly once again. (yeah, go Phillies. I’ll take the Steelers and Penguins these days.)

But when was the last pro wrestling card I dragged myself to?

I mean Ric Flair was fifty miles away, with ROH to boot, and I couldn’t bear the traffic, the hassle and the same old same old for that. Sorry to say, but then again, I’m not sure why ROH decides to go to Elizabeth, PA. Just because Norm Connors can work it, doesn’t mean the mainstream Pittsburgh fans are willing to go.

In September, I’ve been trying to line up a trip to Youngstown, OH to cover the WEC event. Quite frankly, I’m not sure who’s headlining a month and a half out, but I know that’s going to be a great night of fights, and a great MMA experience, and a glimpse at the really big time.

Now, if you know Youngstown, and the reputation that town has in Western Pennsylvania, you’d know that it isn’t merely a fifty or so mile trip. It’s heading into Cleveland territory and it’s heading into scenes I’d rather not talk about in public. But there’s a point there, because I’m not hesitating on going if I get the assignment.

PPV’s? yeah, like I’m going to watch the Night of Champions, and don’t make me laugh about any offering by TNA. On the other hand, I’m going to want to see Dragon Gate, so there’s still hope for us all. But UFC 100? Are you kidding? Brock Lesnar?!? Lesnar/Mir, and that awesome build-up?

And isn’t it strange that the most compelling figures are in MMA?

Bobby Lashley, another pro wrestling star with potential to turn MMA megastar.

Fedor Emilianenko, who’s becoming the hardcore superstar that mainstream America is waking up to, sort of in a way that Misawa or Kobashi once did in Japan. Now, it’s not a matter of if he’ll ever fight in the UFC, but almost definitely when. Sure, who’s going to pay the man today, and how can any Japanese promotion pay him anywhere near the all-but-guaranteed money he’d get in the UFC.

Let’s be real. Fedor vs Lesnar tops a million buys (you laugh, I’m sure, at how l lowball it.)

Win or lose, Fedor has fights galore. Win or lose, Lesnar has fights galore. And the rematch does bigger numbers. And Randy Couture gets to fight one or the other or both. And the upstarts, from Velasquez to Cane to Dos Santos get to grow and gain experience, one way or another, while major stars set the table into the next year and a half.

Josh Barnett helps Affliction spiral into oblivion, and we’re more intrigued than whether or not Jeff Hardy is really going, going gone in the WWE (for now) or the realities of the return of Chris Masters to that same company.

Tito Ortiz kinda sneaks back in the UFC, and it’s vastly interesting and adds one more name to the headline elite of MMA, and gives another several months over the next year with a mainstream recognizable name. Yet TNA surprises us all with either the worst taste of a worked backstage gimmick, or an incredibly convoluted drama that will likely do nothing for the creative morass that said company finds itself in.

It’s not about me, it’s about the industries that I find my attention split between. And it’s not just me, but millions.

The fun thing is, the professional wrestling industry had this situation 80 years or so ago.

At that time, and before it, but not much after it, professional wrestling was all about big fights, real fights and larger than life figures. But at that level, real fights become snooze fests, big fights become hard to find, and larger than life figures are ground into short careers.

Enter professional wrestling as it has become today,

But it was a long and slow decline from larger than life characters, more flashy matches, and eventually big fights. Whether those fights were because of a dominant champion, or a touring champion fighting a region’s biggest draw, big fights were redesigned. Styles evolved and realistic moved to muscle-men, and then towards extremes, and then towards athleticism, and now it’s just boring. Cartoonish characters replaced the ethnic heroes and he admired champions, and then reality remade them, and then we’ve seen a mishmash of them all.

Professional wrestling, I’m sure, will be reborn with MMA.

But I’m not going to hold my breath, and at the same time, I’m astonished by the realities of what professional wrestling can do when it wants to.

Bobby Lashley gets a big build up by TNA, and one wonders why they can’t do the same with another name on their roster. Suicide tears down the house at ComicCon in San Diego, displaying a style unseen by geeks and hardcores of another inbred industry, and eyes are opened. Of course, TNA will continue to push former WWE stars, and tone down their X Division and pretend like Vince Russo is a genius, but hey, that’s reality.

The WWE pulls in Shaq, and on one thought, a WrestleMania match between the Cleveland Cavalier and the Big Show sounds like a BIG FIGHT beyond all big fights. Like TNA and Lashley challenging big MMA names, it’s likely a match never to happen, but the seeds are planted. Why, a pro wrestling fan may ask, can’t the same involvement, energy or investment be created for other big fights … other than the fact that pro wrestling is trapped in its own insanity.

Others have mentioned it, described it and explained it, but the problem with pro wrestling these days isn’t a lack of understanding, but a seeming indifference. There’s no need to put in an effort when your company is the king of the mountain. There’s no need to put an effort in when management is satisfied with eking out its profits, and big names have their rewards, and of course, who cares about the little guys?

Which is a story in and of itself, since the little guys are busting themselves, abusing themselves and often overdoing it for the attention of … the indifferent.

But the obvious is so incomprehensible to the indifferent, and the obvious is rather obvious to those in MMA, well, those in the UFC above all, and that’s the fans. Whether its tangible or not, the UFC has provided the channels for enjoyment; investment of time, effort and emotion; and most of all, by providing the framework to make it all happen.

Championships matter.

Watching a PPV that has meaning matters.

Paying a fair price for a respectful event matters.

Striving to make matchups that count matters.

Building for the future and establishing the sport matters.

Sure, a lot of that doesn’t completely correlate to the industry we call professional wrestling, but it once did, once upon a time, when the fans were the center of attention, not (as Paul Heyman so gloriously says) when the owners were.

I continue to find it ironic that we watch a 100 year plus industry crumble away, piece by piece, lost fan after lost fan, when both are, to more than nominal degrees, being run by the decisions of daughters of men who were themselves obviously impressive businessmen.

What a couple of Jillasses they are!

We’ve seen two companies hell bent on reinventing all the wrong things about an entertainment that is desperate for reinvention of certain fundamentals.

We’ve seen the UFC take up discarded concepts, names and opportunities and turn them into gold, simply by sticking to the basics of promotion.

I know it’s harsh to say, but one wonders why decision makers are claiming hours upon endless hours of honing, revising and revisiting concepts that are clearly headed in the wrong direction, all the while they are ignoring not just the outside world, but the outside world that offers so much insight into their business that it’s amazing to see how many blind eyes turning themselves silly.

Super V
07-29-2009, 09:51 PM
I hope every wresttling journalist jumps to MMA and analyzes every single MMA match and talk about "bad octagon psychology" and makes MMA negative for you guys too. Seriously I think the wrestling journalists were one of the downfalls of pro wrestling in the long term.

TheFallenOneX
07-29-2009, 10:01 PM
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/7/15/

Theo Dious
07-30-2009, 01:31 AM
MMA sucks. That is all.

thedamndest
07-30-2009, 01:40 AM
I hope every wresttling journalist jumps to MMA and analyzes every single MMA match and talk about "bad octagon psychology" and makes MMA negative for you guys too. Seriously I think the wrestling journalists were one of the downfalls of pro wrestling in the long term.

1) Professional wrestling isn't in the state it's in because of internet reporting.

2) Do you think MMA doesn't already have people analyzing it?

Ol Dirty Dastard
07-30-2009, 02:17 AM
Yeah people didn't stop watching wrestling because of journalists. Most people think they are twats, I just found this article to be good.

Consider in 2000-2001 RAW was drawing 6.0-7.0 ratings and now it pulls 3s all the time. That's a HUGE drop, not because of internet reporters, because really, the only ones who read the dirtsheets are us, the internet fans. And most of us keep watching.

Funky Fly
07-30-2009, 03:15 AM
WWE has no competition. They have no reason to try. Vince McMahon put aside his own fetishes for the sake of keeping the company afloat when there was a risk of WCW taking over. Now that there is none, they could give a fuck about what the core audience (ie. 18 - 35 male) wants and give their target audience (kids) Cena day in and day out.

UFC, despite their general dominance is all about one thing: delivery of the goods. Their competition is relatively small. There are 425673485 promotions out there, but Dream (Japan only), Strikeforce and Bodog Fights (their biggest competitors) are nowhere near on the same level. Also, Affliction (lol Josh Barnett amirite?) is dead. Despite all that, Dana Whit and Joe Silva are commited to making sure people are gonna spend that money every single pay per view and make sure people are watching their offerings on Spike TV all the time because they know that happy consumers pay the bills.

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 03:46 AM
So, MMA Noid Post?

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 04:00 AM
UFC has no competition. They have no reason to try. Dana White put aside his own fetishes for the sake of keeping the company afloat when no one cared about UFC. Now that there is none, they could give a fuck about what the core audience (ie. 18 - 35 male) wants and give their target audience (anyone) Mirr day in and day out.

WWE, despite their general dominance is all about one thing: delivery of the goods. Their competition is relatively small. There are 425673485 promotions out there, but AJPW (Japan only), TNA and ROH (their biggest competitors) are nowhere near on the same level. Also, CZW (lol yardtards amirite?) is dead. Despite all that, Vince McMahon and his staff are commited to making sure people are gonna spend that money every single pay per view and make sure people are watching their offerings on USA all the time because they know that happy consumers pay the bills.

Kinda words both ways when you think about it.

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 04:09 AM
http://www.lollibrary.com/gallery/d/1657-1/omg.gif

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 04:11 AM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N9oq_IskRIg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N9oq_IskRIg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 04:12 AM
I'm not trying to sound like a dick towards the Dale, but I have one question...

You've posted a few threads showing your dislike for professional wrestling, and the wrestling forum.
Why should wrestling fans care about what you have to say?

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 04:13 AM
FourFifty, you're missing the point.

THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF AQUARIUS!

Juan
07-30-2009, 04:23 AM
Do you not realize I'm a pro wrestling fan? Like are you all actually retarded?

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 04:24 AM
Damn it St. Jimmy....






























If you're going to spam the wrestling message board (like the first post in this isn't :roll: ) with broadway music, at least make it a relevant song from a relevant show.
<object width="500" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FlMBcTGJ4YM&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FlMBcTGJ4YM&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="405"></embed></object>

Juan
07-30-2009, 04:26 AM
"oh noez someone is badmouthing uncle Vince! let's throw a hissy fit"

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 04:31 AM
"oh noez someone is badmouthing uncle Vince! let's throw a hissy fit"

It's not that, Juan. Wrestling fans will rip into the product on a daily basis because they want to see it succeed. We will say what is wrong but we keep watching because we're fans. It's no different than sticking with your favorite football or baseball team, even if they're not doing that great.
What we have here is some asshat trolling the wrestling forum. If he wants to say this kind of stuff in the casual form, the sports form, or the MMA sub forum, let him say it. However, in the wrestling forum we already know his view points. He's not a fan, so he's just trolling here. I don't want to infringe on his freedom of speech, but you're not going to hand out pro choice flyers at church. There's a place for everything, and this isn't the place for his cut and paste garbage.

Juan
07-30-2009, 04:33 AM
But he is a fan. He stated that a few times in the other thread.

He has said that WWE should take a few pointers from UFC in order to become as successful as it once was, and I agree.

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 04:35 AM
If he's really a fan, then I'm really a Catholic.
He can say it all he wants, but with all of his negative posts towards the industry I don't believe it.

Juan
07-30-2009, 04:44 AM
Well, his shots have been mainly at WWE, and let's be honest, WWE is crap right now.

I enjoy ECW and Smackdown, but their flagship show is an atrocity for the most part. The overall booking is crap and the PPV's usually only have 1 or 2 good matches, whereas on a UFC card, you'll get 4 or 5 great fights.

His points on what WWE needs to improve I pretty much agree with. If he's taking any shots, it's at wrestling fans who can't take any criticism from someone they believe to be is "on the outside"

I get pretty peeved when posters in casual will lump all wrestling fans together as nerds and losers or shit on the wrestling forum as a whole, but nothing Dale has said has that affect on me.

However, I do agree with his thread in casual about some of the "comedy" that comes out of this forum.

Juan
07-30-2009, 04:49 AM
Basically what I'm getting from you guys is that only you're allowed to bad mouth WWE, but when someone else bad mouths WWE and talks about why they don't watch anymore, it's not ok?

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 05:04 AM
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Sports/images/sombrero-straw-mexican-hat.jpg

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 05:08 AM
There's a difference between saying why they don't watch it anymore (which means they're not fans, so if they don't see what's going on how can they come up with a prevalent viewpoint?) and preaching why MMA is better than a company they don't follow.

I'm not going to talk shit about Stephen King's newer books that I haven't read when I used to be a huge fan his work.

Juan
07-30-2009, 05:11 AM
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Sports/images/sombrero-straw-mexican-hat.jpg


http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/FranklinLutter095UFC83.jpg

EXTREME ORAL COMBAT


I mean, I guess MMA does have a few good things. It was part of the training of the most extreme combatant ever.

http://www.gerweck.net/steveblackman.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_E4nB9I9HSIw/ScwOno2TiaI/AAAAAAAAAmc/x1CKYdJrOpk/s400/Strawman-motivational.jpg

http://www.lollibrary.com/gallery/d/1657-1/omg.gif


You complain about how Dale is spamming the wrestling forum then you go and post "hilarious" pictures...

Riiiiiiiiiight

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 05:12 AM
I have nothing but the most respect for the Xero is right forum DAMMIT.

Juan
07-30-2009, 05:15 AM
There's a difference between saying why they don't watch it anymore (which means they're not fans, so if they don't see what's going on how can they come up with a prevalent viewpoint?) and preaching why MMA is better than a company they don't follow.

I'm not going to talk shit about Stephen King's newer books that I haven't read when I used to be a huge fan his work.

We're going in circles, here 450. He has stated that he is a fan on wrestling and based on some of his posts, it's clear he does watch, at least occasionally.

You can choose not to believe him and argue his points, or you can get all upset and start posting ridiculous pictures like St. Jimmy and make wrestling fans look like retards.

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 05:17 AM
We do what we must because we can.

Juan
07-30-2009, 05:18 AM
Anywho, this thread isn't going anywhere. It's a good article, if you bother to read it.

I'm done speaking for Dale. He can come in here and defend his stand, but for the love of God stop with the bitching.

Juan
07-30-2009, 05:21 AM
Just for reference, threads like these are ones that will be closed..

http://www.tpww.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92678

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 05:22 AM
Juan, Do you have stairs in your house?

Funky Fly
07-30-2009, 06:18 AM
Kinda words both ways when you think about it.

You're half right, except WWE does a lot to shoot themselves in the foot. Their Pay Per Views feel like extended episodes of RAW as opposed to the "big match atmosphere" of the past. Remember that this isn't a case of me shitting on them as much as it is me wanting them to get back to the glory days.

Also Frank Mir is not shoved down our throats. Quite the opposite. Actually, he is the luckiest man in the UFC. If he had lost his first match to Lesnar (which he would have except that Steve Mazzagatti is the worst referee of all time) he would have been cut from the roster. That's the thing about UFC: if you are a jobber, you get cut in a hurry. Also, his next fight was against Antonio Noguiera. A little background info: this guy is Brazilian Superman. He no sold getting run over by a truck at 10 years old. He got Donkey Kong ape spazzed all over by Bob Sapp (giant black Goldberg) for 3 rounds, took it in stride and then whooped his ass.

Yeah, so Nog gets a staph infection and is practically dead. Literally in intensive care 5 days before the fight, but he mans up and fights anyway. Of course he gets destroyed (brings a tear to my eye) by Mir and now Mir thinks he is invincible and will not stop talking shit. Oh, the fight was also for the interim heavyweight title because the champ walked out. Meanwhile Lesnar gets a fight with the champ (he came back randomly) and becomes heavyweight champ. Weird, I know. Anyway, they have a unification match at UFC 100 2 weeks ago for the undisputed heavyweight title. Guess what? This time Mir doesn't have a shitty ref to save his ass and gets straight up raped by Lesnar.

You couldn't write this shit. Also, in a very long round about way (sorry) you can see that they don't shove people down your throats like WWE (except Michael Bisping).

Funky Fly
07-30-2009, 06:19 AM
Also, I'm convinced St. Jimmy is a bunch of 5 year olds in an overcoat. No maturity whatsoever.

Ol Dirty Dastard
07-30-2009, 11:10 AM
I'm not trying to sound like a dick towards the Dale, but I have one question...

You've posted a few threads showing your dislike for professional wrestling, and the wrestling forum.
Why should wrestling fans care about what you have to say?

You fail to understand that I actually like pro wrestling and am a huge fan. I just want it to be better.

Ol Dirty Dastard
07-30-2009, 11:22 AM
If he's really a fan, then I'm really a Catholic.
He can say it all he wants, but with all of his negative posts towards the industry I don't believe it.

Man I'm as much of a fan as you are. You don't think I orgasm a little bit when I watch CM Punk vs. John Morrison, or Chris Jericho cut one of his awesome fucking promos. You don't think I TRY MY HARDEST to sit through RAW? Christ I'd watch Smackdown every week if it wasn't on a Friday. Whenever any stupid fucking MMA fan starts ripping on "teh fake pro wrestling" I rip them an asshole, and tell them how these guys are on the road 300 days a year busting their asses, working through ridiculous injuries, going throug mental struggles noone could understand. I would say pro wrestlers are as tough if not more tough than mma fighters... they just aren't as skilled of fighters.

Part of me is still the same 5 year old watching Summerslam '92 on scrambled tv. crying after Bret lost to Davey Boy.

When I rip pro wrestling, I'm never ripping the wrestlers. Hell I barely talk anything about HHH or Cena, because at the end of the day they're just trying to reep the benefits of their hard work. In fact I'm pretty sure it's mostly you guys who do that. Fuck I remember reading threads making fun of Matt Hardy's "soft gut"... like wtf do you guys want from these guys?

What pisses me off is the horrific product put in front of us, it isn't the work rate of the guys that bust their asses, it's the watered down hollywood writing that we have to watch and insults our intelligence. It's pure white trash fluff and it doesn't need to be. There's no emotion in it anymore, nothing means anything, there's no big match feeling anymore, there's no true animocity b/w wrestlers because the booking is absolutely atrocious. The booking does not allow guys to break the glass ceiling, whenever a guy starts to get momentum they do everything in their power to cut his balls off. In the UFC they make it necessity to have new stars unless the guy is a total bore (see: Yushin Okami) and if someone who's a top guy doesn't deliver in a fight that they win, they're made sure to be put in an exciting fight the next time around.

Ol Dirty Dastard
07-30-2009, 11:23 AM
But yeah, I'm a troll, sry guys.

Inadequacy
07-30-2009, 12:56 PM
He can say it all he wants, but with all of his negative posts towards the industry I don't believe it.

It's not that, Juan. Wrestling fans will rip into the product on a daily basis because they want to see it succeed. .

I know it's been pointed out already, but these two posts kinda jumped out at me. I mean hey, maybe that's what he's doing.

thedamndest
07-30-2009, 01:10 PM
I don't see what Dale's being a fan or not has to do with a discussion of the wrestling industry. Even if you don't believe he is actually a fan he is obviously putting forth some good reads. You don't need to like something to be able to discuss it, provided you understand what you are discussing.

Vastardikai
07-30-2009, 01:49 PM
I'm in the same boat as Dale in many respects. I used to follow pro-wrestling religiously (even during the Wrestlecrap era.), now I can't bring myself to keep up with it as much as I used to. MMA, has so many fights that I look forward to. BJ Penn vs. Kenflo. Maia vs. Marquardt. Forrest vs. Anderson Silva. Gina vs. Cyborg. Couture vs. Big Nog. and that's off the top of my head.

The last Wrestling Match I was hyped for? Edge vs. Undertaker's Wrestlemania match.

FourFifty
07-30-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm just going to back out of any debate when it comes to UFC in the wrestling forum. Yea, the ray of hope that was shining from Pandora's box is starting to dim.


A member of the WWE SmackDown creative team pitched an angle for the Dolph Ziggler and Maria storyline which would have had Ziggler blackmailing Maria with video footage. It would have been heavily implied that the footage was a sex tape, although they never would have come right out and said it.
The proposed angle called for Ziggler threatening that he would show it to her family and friends, but not any of the fans. The angle was apparently rejected.
THat would have been awesome TV....

abec
07-30-2009, 02:22 PM
Why does it have to be so cut and dry, I like baseball and football, white and hispanic chicks, linux and windows, wrestling and mma. I dont get why you're either one or the other like it some kind of epic battle. I watch both for completely different reasons. WWE's current product is only download worthy for me, I'm not in any hurry to see it live on TV, but I'll download and watch it later. UFC doesn't know what the hell they want, they force fighters to give retarded promos of IM GOING TO BEAT THAT GUY UP SO BAD OMG HE SAID THIS WELL ILL KILL HIM. Then when the drama spills out in ring they flip out. Its whatever because watching Dana White flip flop around and curse more than the entire Casino movie in 10 seconds is pretty entertaining even if I do find him to be a hypocrite. Unfortunately UFC is almost as boring as WWE, I only seem to watch when Lesnar, Forrest, Rua, or Mirko is on the card, I never got into the whole ultimate fighter stuff. The guys that weigh less than 180#'s just don't strike me as something I care to watch, I mean they kick the shit out of each other and just stand there like it didnt hurt, and then you have the 6'5" guys that are 170#'s and it looks like Dana is running a concentration camp. I could talk as much shit about the WWE product but everyone here on the forums knows the current issues with the PG crap. I still watch both though, nothings ever perfect.

St. Jimmy
07-30-2009, 05:21 PM
http://www.thebilalian.com/overcoats/coat-hat-large.jpg

Ol Dirty Dastard
07-31-2009, 11:38 AM
St. Jimmy why is it that you are so defensive?