Legit guys [Archive] - TPWW Forums

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Sixx

10-15-2009, 08:46 AM

Ok, so the guys that are legitly bad-ass are usually only mid-card in the WWE.

So, I was wondering, do you think that it irritates them when they have to lose to some pussy-ass clowns over and over again, when they know for sure they could totally whoop their asses in a real fight?

I know they get paychecks and all that, but I myself would probably be pissed off if I was MMA-trained and had to job to a douche that fights like a girl.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 08:50 AM

This question is so bad, I just want to point out that it is really bad, and then leave.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 08:50 AM

*leaves*

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 08:51 AM

...Slowly.

Mr. Nerfect

10-15-2009, 08:51 AM

I still find it really funny that Santino Marella was an MMA fighter. If Joe Rogan ever hosts RAW...

Sixx

10-15-2009, 08:53 AM

This question is so bad, I just want to point out that it is really bad, and then leave.

You're bad. Off you go.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 09:07 AM

Alright div. Nobody has ever been pissed off about getting paid to PERFORM.

It isn't fighting, and whether you are tough or a pansy, is irrelivent. Everybody in the business is well aware of this and nobody has ever been upset with scripted results of matches based on themselves or their opponents being the better true fighter.

Other reasons, for sure, but never because that.

Didn't Cornette get fired for bullying Santino?

MMA fighter.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 09:09 AM

Seriously, it's like you discovered what kayfabe was, broke away and then tried to tangle the reality line of wrestling all over again.

Sixx

10-15-2009, 09:23 AM

Listen, I know they are performers and all. But take Shamrock for instance. He used to be UFC fighter that was at the top of his game, he was badass. And then he joins WWE and experiences something completely different. Now he has to pretend some fat ass like Mick Foley is tougher than him.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 09:29 AM

And what?

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 09:33 AM

Sean Penn played a retard in I Am Sam. Do you think doing the role infuriated him because in reality, he is much smarter than Michelle Pfeifer, who played his lawyer?

You would have to be borderline vegetable to have the mindset you are questioning here.

Hanso Amore

10-15-2009, 09:47 AM

I think it is an ok question. Some guys have massive egoes and never want to look "weak".

Fuck, look at Hogan and Nash. I imagine there are some legit bag asses that felt this way. At least in the 70s and 80s when people thought this shit was real.

Hanso Amore

10-15-2009, 09:47 AM

Imagine Bad News Brown ever losing to SD Jones.

Never would happen. Brown would murder everyone.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 10:13 AM

But BNB was BILLED as a bad ass. He lost to his fair share of matches to talent he could beat up IRL, but none as low on the card as SD Jones. Which I think nulifies whatever your point was there.

And just because the audience didn't understand kayfabe back then, doesn't mean the talent didn't.

I don't understand your reference to Hogan and Nash. Both guys were huge, and very charasmatic. That is why they got over. They pissed and moaned because they wanted to stay over. They didn't want to appear weak in front of the audience for the effect it has on their character. The higher the on the card, the higher on the payscale.

Absolutey nothing to do being a legitimately better fighter.

Hanso Amore

10-15-2009, 10:25 AM

Right, I am using them as reference that egoes want to look good and keep their character strong.

I dont think a bad ass wouldnt feel the same way.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 10:28 AM

You can't compare celebrity ego with being a genuinely good fighter.

You are saying that the two have the same agenda. You can't be serious?

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 10:32 AM

The notion of 'I could beat him in a bar fight, so it's absurd that I job to him' is stupid.

Rammsteinmad

10-15-2009, 10:49 AM

*Posts for the sake of feeling like I haven't just wasted two minutes of my life.*

Mr. Nerfect

10-15-2009, 11:07 AM

Fabes, I do love you, but I also agree that the question isn't ridiculous. I do get what you are saying -- guys do know that there is more than just being tough to the business, and marketability and entertainment come first and all that.

But didn't Regal rough up Goldberg and get himself fired for working too stiff with him? Why did Regal do this? Sure, Goldberg was probably a jerk or something, but Regal wouldn't have done it if he didn't think he could genuinely beat the shit out of Bill. Hardcore Holly also used to work stiff with guys he felt weren't above him.

It's not exactly what the thread is about, in the case of Holly, as there are a number of factors as to why Holly was bitter. Regal seems case in point, though: Regal felt he was tougher than Goldberg, and went out there to prove exception to his push.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 11:16 AM

I always thought Regal did that because everyone was complaining that Bill was too stiff, and not trying to learn how not to be.

It wasn't because he thought he was the tougher fighter, its because he wanted to teach him a lesson about how much it sucks when someone works stiff. He did it because he was the better fighter, but that wasn't the point he was trying to prove.

Bobcore was all about paying dues and climbing the ladder. He wasn't aggitated at putting over workers who couldn't beat him in a fight, he was just a bit jaded to the evolution of pro-wrestling, in regards to working like that, and felt he was just following tradition.

Plus, he was generally just a bully with who he could get away with it on, but I would still argue that none of this has anything to do with how he perceved the idea of putting over wrestlers who could not beat him in a street fight.

BigDaddyCool

10-15-2009, 11:17 AM

They knew what they signed up for.

Mr. Nerfect

10-15-2009, 11:23 AM

They knew what they signed up for.

A very good point. However, I do wonder if some guys perhaps feel that they "get" the business, have more credibility than a lot of other guys, and feel frustrated when they don't get the push they think they could use.

Mr. Nerfect

10-15-2009, 11:23 AM

I could have seen Daniel Puder evolving that way, actually.

Sovereigntywillpr

10-15-2009, 11:48 AM

I don't know Fab's, I get your point but it seems like you dug yourself into a whole...

it's obviouse some people do care, Hogan, Nash, Hart/HBK (although I Don't think it's as much about tuff guy status than ego)

But I'm sure some do, but it is scripted, we'd assume they all know this but we don't know how it is in that locker room, I'm sure they start getting frustrated pretty fast, especialy the ones who get told they will be the next big thing and end up working with the company as a mid level guy for a decade or more...

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 12:27 PM

I've dug myself into nothing. You are discussing celebrity ego, the question was whether workers, who in reality are/were good fighters, were ever disgruntled about putting over workers who they felt confident they could beat in a shoot fight. I said no, and explained why... and now I have apprentely dug myself into a 'whole', with that statement being supported by a completely different argument, one which I have already separated from being relevant to this question.

Come on now. I am willing to play if you have an argument, but you can't retort with a DIFFERENT argument...

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-15-2009, 12:34 PM

Just for fun...

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BigDaddyCool

10-15-2009, 12:41 PM

Again, they new what they signed up for, and if they didn't it is their own fault for not looking into it before hand. That is like getting pissed that you though all there was to being a lumber jack was cutting down trees. You also have to get them to the truck.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-15-2009, 12:45 PM

lol I love how Regal totally kicks the shit out of Goldberg all match and Goldberg is like a deer in the headlights.

Hanso Amore

10-15-2009, 12:55 PM

Regal was fucking HUGE there....like 30 pounds more than he is now.

Sixx

10-15-2009, 01:01 PM

Swiss Ultimate

10-15-2009, 02:18 PM

Taz actually said in an interview once that when he first started out he was arrogant and didn't think he should job to guys he was tougher than.

Fignuts

10-15-2009, 02:33 PM

I used to be able to see taz having that mentality, but after becoming a freaking muppet commentator I dunno anymore.

Fabien Barthez

10-15-2009, 03:52 PM

You're kind of trying to persuade us that every wrestler thinks like you, because it's right. Sure, it's right, they probably shouldn't be bitching, but don't forget people have egos.

No I am not. I am saying that most people come into the business and are made to understand the 'code' of being a wrestler. As a result, this archaic notion of alpha-dominance is stamped out in the learning process. I can only base this on shoots and other non-scripted, candid discussion I have seen over the years. Traditions like this are well documented by all sides of the industry. I have never heard of any wrestlers adopting this mindset in question with this thread.

And then a bunch of people began talking about ego/card position.... which we know full well exists, but is a totally separate discussion from the one brought up by this thread. Them arguments are about drawing power, and money. Nothing to do with physical confrontational dominance.

So have some guys had the mindset layed out in the original question asked? Maybe, who knows. Have they ever acted upon it? Hell no, because they know that that isn't at all relevant in the job they do.

I've seen shedloads of shoots and wrestling documentaries, and I have never heard of anyone having this frame of mind. And even if Taz did, I'm sure it didn't last very long.

You are talking about Kayfabe, and understanding Kayfabe is lesson number 1 in Pro Wrestling.

Mr. Nerfect

10-15-2009, 07:38 PM

No I am not. I am saying that most people come into the business and are made to understand the 'code' of being a wrestler. As a result, this archaic notion of alpha-dominance is stamped out in the learning process. I can only base this on shoots and other non-scripted, candid discussion I have seen over the years. Traditions like this are well documented by all sides of the industry. I have never heard of any wrestlers adopting this mindset in question with this thread.

And then a bunch of people began talking about ego/card position.... which we know full well exists, but is a totally separate discussion from the one brought up by this thread. Them arguments are about drawing power, and money. Nothing to do with physical confrontational dominance.

So have some guys had the mindset layed out in the original question asked? Maybe, who knows. Have they ever acted upon it? Hell no, because they know that that isn't at all relevant in the job they do.

I've seen shedloads of shoots and wrestling documentaries, and I have never heard of anyone having this frame of mind. And even if Taz did, I'm sure it didn't last very long.

You are talking about Kayfabe, and understanding Kayfabe is lesson number 1 in Pro Wrestling.

I don't think the question is a matter of kayfabe. I think it actually ties more to the ego thing. Does a tough guy think he should be a bigger star in a tough guy industry? William Regal and Taz are sort of indicative of a "yes." I don't think there is a blanket statement to be made here, but of course it would be possible.

Fabien Barthez

10-16-2009, 05:04 AM

But that isn't the frigging question though!

I give up. Argue all your completely different questions with each other.

Mr. Nerfect

10-16-2009, 06:42 AM

But that isn't the frigging question though!

I give up. Argue all your completely different questions with each other.

No, it is. It's all about the tough guy ego. Do you think it hurts a guy with a legit background to put over a guy with a weaker background. I think it's a case-by-case thing.

Mr. Nerfect

10-16-2009, 06:51 AM