What I dont understand....

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

is why big time wrestling bookers struggle so much with making a basic product? I'm talking both TNA and WWE.

It really doesn't make sense to me. Even booking a show without long term planning, with the talent these two companies have, it's not hard to book a run of the mill wrestling program.

in a two hour show, you could have 3-5, 6-10 minute matches, and the main event can be 15 minutes. The finishes don't even matter, give the people something in the ring and they will enjoy it. You can then have 10-20 minutes of segments. I don't really know how to consider commercial time, but honestly it's not THAT fucking hard. Politics and bullshit aside... I mean it's like that in any job.

It's not like I could book some ground breaking wrestling product, but I'd know how to NOT patronize my audience and I bet you if I were the head booker of the WWE the ratings wouldn't drop... prolly not raise but like really? I can think of better shit then Bret Hart getting hit by a fucking car.

I don't understand how these guys make it so hard for themselves. Fans don't want to watch 10 minutes of wrestling and 110 minutes of lame segments. Even casual fans. People think it is stupid and trashy. How is this so fucking hard to get?


I mean I realize it is pretty sweet armchair booking on my part, but honestly, I bet you I could appeal to the masses better than these fuckwits. Christ, I've been a wrestling fan for 20 years, and the McMahons have full control of how this shit turns out. Give me an hour and I could book a better product than most RAWs. I just don't understand how such supposedly smart people can suck so bad at this, especially when they've had success and they KNOW what works and what doesn't.

What reason would Vince McMahon not have to hire me (or YOU) as a "writer"? I know at least as much about a good wrestling product as these current RAW fuckwits do. At worst he would maintain status quo. Not like I'd even try cross the boss.

[Xero]

I don't understand how these guys make it so hard for themselves. Fans don't want to watch 10 minutes of wrestling and 110 minutes of lame segments. Even casual fans. People think it is stupid and trashy. How is this so fucking hard to get?


Have to disagree here. While yes, the current product, in and of itself, sucks, saying that the major audience wants wrestling is very debatable. I point you to the Attitude era, where it wasn't the quality of the wrestling but the stories that lured the people in.

If you have 10 minutes of decent wrestling and 110 minutes of amazing storyline advancements, people will watch.

I'm not saying this is what I want, and I know the majority of people here wouldn't want it, but to a casual fans, it's about the characters and stories. The in-ring product is secondary.

And besides, wrestling is now an entertainment business more on par with Hollywood. WWE's making money, TNA's ratings are rising. Isn't that all that matters in the business world? Success?

[Road Warrior]

I agree, it's not that hard. What I didn't understand this past week on Raw is why Your WWE Champion is in the opening match on the show ? Not only that he's wrestling a MEr who you just booked him against at your second biggest PPV of the year. Not only that but the whole time the match is going on the announcers are talking about the ME that evening between Cena and HHH instead of calling a match that features YOUR WWE CHAMPION ???? If you don't give a fuck about him why should I ????

[Jordan]

Well Vince Russo has reavealed in recent interviews and blogs that he has to appeal to the masses. And the masses don't want long wrestling matches, they want variety. Maybe that is true. I don't know. I would assume WWE's view point isn't far from that.

I think actual better booking of matches is needed. Why must we constantly see mismatches and rematches that we don't care about?

They could just match up the wrestlers better to have better matches. They don't need to be 20 minutes always, but 7-10 minute matches between hell like Evan Bourne and The Miz, or Big Show and Triple H, or HBK and Legacy, Kofi and Sheamus etc... those can all work just match up the styles better, and allow them to have a good match.

It's very frustrating.

[Jordan]

Have to disagree here. While yes, the current product, in and of itself, sucks, saying that the major audience wants wrestling is very debatable. I point you to the Attitude era, where it wasn't the quality of the wrestling but the stories that lured the people in.



I don't agree with that. Now for me I was always a WWE guy and watched WCW on commercial. But the reason I was a WWE guy was because of the wrestlers, HBK, Foley, Rock, Austin, Undetaker, Triple H, New Age Outlaws, Kane, Farooq, Owen Hart, Jeff Jarrett, their work rate was much better than the upper card of WCW featuring Hogan, Flair, Nash, Hall, Goldberg, Sting, and Piper.

And WCW may have had (for a short period of time) better and more compelling angles to combat WWE's DX, Undertaker/Bret/Shawn, Vince/Austin etc...

For me the wrestling was the point. When Raw would conclude with an interview segment or a beatdown I was very disappointed.

[Xero]

That's for you. Everyone's different, but the vast majority of fans need good characters and storylines first and foremost to pull them in.

[Swiss Ultimate]

GDN, Xero,
My opinion lies somewhere inbetween your opinions in this.

GDN makes a good point that without trying to be "ground-breaking" or "shocking" he could maintain current ratings using very simple writing/storylines and a greater focus on wrestling.

Xero, I agree that the characters and storylines brought people in during the 90s but, let's not rewrite history. For every major star (Rock, Austin, Mankind, Jericho, DDP, Goldberg) there were a dozen unpopular, boring, stupid characters that people complained about even then. And the amount of good storylines was really minimal, it's just that the good ones really caught our imaginations and attention while we let the stupid ones slide. Don't forget the awesome angles lasted seemingly forever.

Example: Austin VS. McMahon, The Rock VS. the audience, Mankind becoming a fan-favorite and his retirement, Triple H actually becoming a legitimate world champion (speaking of which, this is why I can see Miz becoming world champ, Triple H started out at a level far beneath what we see Miz at today).

Still, I love arm-chair booking (since booking is usually done while sitting anyhow).

There are thousands of reasonably competent fans who could book equal to or better than what both TNA and the WWE have now. My only wonder is if they could keep it up on a weekly basis for more than a few years. I imagine it'd take a cabal of dedicated writers who love making up stories. When I was a kid I think I had that desire, however, I don't know if I'd last more than a few months writing for the WWE.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

See, where you mistake what I'm saying is you can develop characters in decent wrestling matches. Stone Cold Steve Austin got over by the way he wrestled. He was a no nonsense hard as nails redneck, and people fucking loved it. He told that story in the ring. The Rock told his story in the ring too.

During the year 2000, the companies best year (not saying business wise, just the product was really at its best), every RAW match (not 100 per cent on this) was about 5-10 minutes, and every main event was 15 minutes... and the company was not exactly void of larger than life characters.


It's super hard to legitimize WRESTLERS when you don't fucking have them wrestle. It's what they fucking do. Russo is a hack if he thinks fans don't want wrestling. How does he know fans dont want wrestling? Yeah fans don't want guys dry humping each other while wearing tights, they don't want wrasslin. They don't wanna watch guys wristlocking and using rest holds, but if you give them ten minutes of two over guys knocking the crap out of one another in a captivating way, they will react. What casual fans don't want is used up lame angles that makes them feel stupid for even trying to watch. Also, casul "not smart" fans are going to like whatever you present.

[Xero]

Agreedf.

[Steveviscious89]

In any case a healthy medium needs to be found. Really when you think about it, TNA has the best shot at doing this if they can get it done. I always said that if they leave the wrestling to the wrestlers and the talking to the talkers, things would go well. So far in TNA since the coming of Hogan, we've had a lot of angles involving people who don't wrestle on a regular basis, or don't wrestle at all. Meanwhile, the usual good ring performers have had the matches. These two ideas must be integrated into each other to find the medium. You can't have one without the other, otherwise you run into GDN's point where the 'over' people are no longer over because they went too long without having a match or some intense power struggle to deal with.

I think the reason we all take issue with the product is because it's kind of in limbo. The bookers are trying to create a reality show without the use of reality. Even casual fans are different from each other. Some actually like the matches because even though they know it's scripted, they look to see how well it's being performed. I know this because I live with a couple of them. My girlfriend can even be classified in that category. Meanwhile others also appreciate a good promo in between. I actually think that it would be a good idea for either company to go out and do a little research on what the people really want to see. We know that since Hogan came into TNA, promos involving him and then some of the knockouts matches have scored higher ratings than the rest of the show. According to these numbers, our own opinions here don't rank very high. Every time we go on a rant about someone's product, we really have to remember this fact. Also, I agree that good matches are very important, however, they quality of the match is determined by the wrestlers. How the match is arrived at is determined by the bookers. Vince Russo is not responsible for what happens in the ring during a match. When a match sucks, you need to blame the wrestlers who dropped the ball during the match.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol this isn't really about what makes a good wrestling product. It's more... I can book a better product than these guys, with the talent they have and it drives me nuts that they're making money for "writing" absolute shit, when I'm an actual fan, nd I'm pretty sure would be hated because of this.

[Batista03]

I am on the fence with this. Having a match that is about 10 minutes long is great as long as you book then the right way. Storylines could really do better then the shit they have now. One thing is that I am getting sick and tired of the heels climbing out the ring and walking away. Let someone get their ass kick one week and the other the next 2 or something like that; not just running or climb to the apron and get down and leave. Also, it is to much talking about shit that dont matter. Please dont go into your past of how u never do this or that, just get to what u want to do and act on that. With the WWE, you have that boring 15-20 min segment with Jerry Springer was a waste of my time. You see the damn car was sitting in reverse the whole time Cena was talking to Bret so you knew what was going to happen. And i miss the blood and vulger language that the WWE use to have and what TNA has now. On TNA, you see the same storylines that have been done by either WWE, WCW, or ECW in the past and it is not that appealing imo. I only look at TNA every now and then to see certain wrestlers. But anyway, there is alot of improving that could be done, and if they improve or not its up to them but just wanted to voice my thoughts.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Guys can't wrestle a good match when they're given 2 and a half minutes following someone getting hit by a car, it's just fucking ridiculous.

[Indifferent Clox]

if the storylines were as good as bryan danieson wrestling, i wouldn't mind 90 minutes of amazing well thought out stories, i really wouldn't, as long as it built up to a hell of a good 30 min match

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Bryan Danielson isn't the be all and end all of wrestling. You are obviously a purist.

[Mr. Pierre]

I agree that wrestlers have to have sufficient amount of ring-time in order to become a believable, marketable character.

For example, if Orton wasn't a main eventer, and didn't get 10 minutes per RAW and about 20 minutes per PPV, the only thing "badass" or "psycho" about his character would be his monotone promos and the fact that he punts people.

I think a lot of Orton's character is so grasping to the audience because of his mannerisms in the ring and the way he's able to tell a story. If he were never given the time to establish that in the ring, he wouldn't have a shot in hell to get a decent reaction or be interesting. And that brings me back to the point that I agree with, that you can only build a wrestler so much in promos and squash matches, but it comes down to how they stand out in the ring compared to others.

[thedamndest]

Most of the backstage segments feel like their primary purpose is to shill merchandise and anything else is an afterthought. Do you really think The Rock would have gotten over if he had said, "Undertaker, with your Mickey Mouse tattoos, The Rock is gonna relive himself beating your candy ass over and over again on this three disc DVD!" *eyebrow raise*

Could they book better? Sure. Do they have to. No.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I just don't think it'd be that hard to book a better product, I don't understand why they don't even try for the loyal fans... well I guess they don't care.

[Team Sheep]

For a good wrestling show where characters are developed through matches, watch Smackdown. For more of a trashy variety show, watch Raw. That's the way I look at it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

:'( just hate that it has to be like that.

[Team Sheep]

I never watch Raw expecting any good wrestling, which is quite sad really :( I just watch it because it's the flagship show and if anything big happens, it will happen on Raw and on live TV. Smackdown is where I sit back and enjoy some quality wrestling (for the most part).

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Pretty much was just watching RAW for Bret Hart but now they've ruined it.