Except the catch is I love the comics and I understand where you guys are coming from. I'm not some casual Batman guy. I absolutely love the character, and felt, as a fan of that character, from the books, that Nolan hit it out of the park as much as one could while being completely creative with it. I agree the Superman should be different in terms of his development but he can be serious but might hearted at the same time. Doesn't have to be either or. Maybe they make that a point in this film. Maybe Clark is now a more content, light hearted hero where Bruce is the darker side of life.

And no, Stark is nowhere near as compelling from a character arc standpoint. There's no loss or consequence for him or his actions. His weapons are sold to bad guys. He stops that. His idea is hijacked by bad guys. Be stops that. A guy be left hanging seeks revenge and tries to punish Pepper only to have Pepper be his demise, and Tony goes on happily ever after without any real loss or consequence to anything he did. They're not the same.

And they don't have to be. When Iron Man and Marvel in general started their run, I was all for it. It was different, it was new, the characters were new and refreshing. Then 2015 happened and it's just not the same. Every movie, imo, looks the same. Feels the same. Sounds the same. They, for the most part, lack compelling, convincing villains. And Marvel has made it a point to do this. And that's all fine and dandy. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do these films and I don't think DC is better for being dark or Marvel is better for consistent and trying to fit everything in their expanded universe.

In fact,Marvel deserves a lot of praise for building what they have seemingly out of nowhere to start and for consistently producing quality movies pretty much year long without hitting one stinker. Their "worst" film might've been Hulk and that's not a bad movie. I'm just feeling burned on them because they've literally dominated the cinemas and at this point my pallet would like something a little different. That still doesn't mean that either one is better than the other.

Here's the flaw in simplifying a story to dismiss an argument:

"So like, his parent get killed like millions of other orphans but he's special so he becomes some vigilante. He has money to make a suit and weapons and a cool car. He beats up crazy people but he doesn't kill, except he let's his mentor die for reasons. Then a clown comes along and ruins any chance of a social life and he retires. Then a terrorists comes along and he comes out of retirement. He gets thrown in a hole, he climbs out, beats the other guy. Fakes his death and gives his stuff to a cop. Eh."

You see, it's disingenuous to the narrative and can be done to literally anything. I can present the best movies ever in such a fashion.

I agree you can. Which is why I outlined why. Like I said, there's no consequence for Stark for any of his actions, nor is there any real feeling of loss. He never hit rock bottom and at the end of the day nothing changes for him outside initial development into Iron Man. In the first one, yes, very compelling in par with, to an extent, what we see in Begins. And even then, it wasn't the same.

It's not knock on the character. Marvel could've gone a similar route buy they chose not to and it really didn't matter at the end of day because the films are still solid and the character is still popular.

When you're telling a series of stories (the MCU is a movie series) you simply do not have the freedom to make the kind of consequences you would with a standalone trilogy. It would be like killing Mulder in X-Files eps. 7.

Also, there's been growth with the MCU characters, but more in the sense of a serialized show (again like X-Files). Stark in 'season one' is not the Stark of 'season two'.

That is true and that's what I meant by going a different direction. Nonetheless, there could still be dire and permanent consequences to Stark but there isn't. And again, nothing wrong with that. It's not like the movies are boring or shit. They're still good. They're just not driven in that sense. Marvel has built their universe in a way completely different and identifiable from D.C., which is great.

Let's get back to the topic, damn it. Wishbone mentioned this seemingly viscous, vile characterizing of Batman. Am I correct I remembering Batman being written to be more mean and menacing after Jason Todd's death, so much to a point that Tim Drake felt Batman needed the balance having a Robin provided? Todd was blown up when I was like, 5 maybe. No way I would've been old to enough or have the means to follow the stories like I do now.

All I hope is that we see at least some of Clark Kent doing the whole secret identity thing. Was an element that Zack Snyder just didn't touch, and part of me thinks this whole thing with putting all these other people into the Superman sequel is just so he can continue to not put any effort into/ignore Superman's secret identity.

Well Clark does seem intent on investigating the Batman and is scolded by Perry White, so maybe we're in luck. Still hate that Lois already knows who he is. Ruins the whole fucking dynamic of their relationship. They could've saved her finding out for some epic moment, like dying. Instead they just blew it an hour into MoS.

Henry Cavill pretty much stated outright that this is more Justice League/Wonder Woman/The Batman prequel than a Superman sequel.

It does seem that we'll see some Clark. He seems to have beef with his boss over a Batman hitpiece, which is kinda hilarious.

It's funny to me that, in the trailer, that scene is all epic and dramatic but when we actually see it, it probably won't be anywhere near that heavy.

Agree with wishbone on the branding. Not really batman's style. But the "Do you bleed comment?" is typical Batman bluster that he's had for years.

Doesn't bother me either way, because I'm open to Zack Snyder's interpretations of these characters. We've already seen movies of these characters taken directly from the comics. I'm ready for something different this time, which is why I guess I enjoyed Man of Steel more than most people.

I basically look at these movies like Elseworlds tales.

True, in retrospect I may have exaggerated on the "Do you bleed" line. That one is pretty Batmanish. I think the other stuff just got to me to the point I was reaching for other things to add to my rant lol.

Regardless I can't get behind these movies. Too much wrong, and too much that I just don't like. I suppose that's the beauty of movies though. If you don't want to have to watch it you don't have to buy a ticket. :)

I'm just gonna pretend this period in DC's history never happened. Maybe if I Bo-lieve hard enough it'll come true, or at the very least I'll just go into denial and think in 10 years when they reboot again that we just got out of a massive DC drought or something. :lol:

I thought it was odd when you included that line in your reasoning. Feels like it's spot on. We shall see. I hope it's good, because DC needs it to be. MoS was not as good as any Marvel film except maybe the recent Hulk, and going all in on a universe of mediocre or worse movies isn't gonna do them any good.

http://www.chud.com/wp-content/uploa...vs-300x300.jpg
Official Desert Storm Batman photo released.

Also, there were rumors stating that Affleck and Geoff Johns had signed on to co write a new Batman script that's already near finished with Affleck starring and directing.

That's no rumor. It's happening.

Well excuse me. What's the feeling on Johns as a writer?

Johns has a good handling of getting superheroes to work in other media. His name is attached to good shit and some of the best Smallville events. But for me, the big takeaway is Affleck co-writing and directing. I was on board the second he was announced because I knew we were dealing with a guy who knows his shit, rather than the crash-course most actors need when they take a role. He's as good a draft as Ryan Reynolds is for Deadpool. Or RDJ for Stark. It makes sense the more you think about it.

I can't trust "Zack Snyder".

He's alright.

Barely. He's never had one consensus, great film. Just a few mediocre efforts with some duds sprinkled in.

300 was dumb but fuckin' awesome. His Dawn of the Dead remake was great. I loved his Watchmen movie.

I think he's a solid director.

300 was a decent time waster, and his Dawn of the Dead was pretty good. Hated Watchmen though. Although I hated the Watchmen graphic novel too so that one was pretty much DOA for me anyway.

Loved Watchmen. Could not for the life of me understand the hate it got.

Watchmen is the only superhero movie I've ever seen that I wouldn't describe as "fucking gay"

Meh, too dreary and bleak for me. If I wanted to dwell on how much I hate humanity and how much the world sucks I can just listen to my own thoughts. I like going to the movies and reading comics to escape that sort of thing. :p

Watchmen is dreary and bleak. It is essentially about nuclear war. No time for one-liners.

Watchmen and 300 were decent enough.... lesson being that Zack Snyder is ok when he tries to be very faithful/literal in his adaptations.

If he did a straight adaptation of say, Superman: Birthright, I'm sure it would have been great.

Watchmen is just ok. Nowhere near as good as the comic (but that was going to be near impossible tbh)

300 is good though and I liked MOS.

people sometimes seem 'overly critical' of DC in general for some reason.

Some issues I agree with. I don't like a 'brooding Superman'.

But the MoS destruction thing is pure bitching.

Watchmen is the only Snyder film I actually enjoyed. But that wasn't really his own work. He essentially just filmed a live action motion comic.

300 was the shits. Big, dumb and loud. A bunch of characters I could give two fucks about. Didn't care for it at all.

Dawn of the dead might be the only film he's ever made that most people will agree on in being a very good, thoroughly entertaining movie. Sucker Punch and the Guardians movie were not well received and MoS might be the most debated good/not good comic film ever.

He's been the king of mediocrity. Hopefully getting an actual award winning writer in Terrio will turn things around for BvS and the follow up Justice League.

Oh, I know it was meant to be that way. I have read the comic after all. I just don't much care for "dreary and bleak" in most cases. That's not even really a thing I have for comic book movies either. I just don't like sad movies period honestly.

Also on your comment about MoS I agree completely. I didn't have a problem with the destruction and stuff. My biggest issue was with Superman's characterization, and with the way his parents and other side characters were portrayed. None of it seemed right.

"You don't owe this world anything" is the new "maybe". His parents are nice but they are certainly not the parents of the Superman I knew pre-New52. I like MoS, I just wouldn't have done those little things that didn't even affect the story a great deal. Pa Kent could contrast Jor-El's message without insinuating letting a bus full of kids die. It was an absurd line.

Although, I like that Ma Kent says he doesn't owe anybody anything, which for me is a veiled jab at critics anyway.

Can't really get excited for a movie they threw together just because the Avengers is spanking them. Right after a great Batman series with a credible Batman who was broken down and could have easily knocked it out of the park again as aged Batman.

His glowing body was pretty fucking gay mang.

Nothing like seeing a 6' glowing dick
Granted in some circles that might have been a good selling point for the movie.

Agreed. Couldn't get enough of Dr. Manhattan's circumcised penis.

He really needs a neck.

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So I mean, Doomsday confirmed right? And since they're referring to Affleck as Bruce Wayne, that debunks the Deathstroke theory?

Wonder Woman looks the best out of everybody.

Either their version of Doomsday or Bizarro

Not sold on Lex Luthor.... I just once want a "serious" Lex Luthor....

I am glad to see Clark Kent in the movie, though....

Jovial quirky luthor is a facade reportedly

Well, yeah, I know he is going to turn out to be sinister.... but I just want to see "serious legitimate businessman/scientist" once....

Look at DC all loosening up and telling jokes. Thank god the ten year gloom train is done with.

Wonder what the winged things are in that one shot of Batman fighting people in the desert....

Parademons?

Yea that caught me offguard

RIP gloomy DC I wil mis your stone-faced presentation.

Though to be fair even TDK had litle jokes in it they were good, It wasn't a constant barrage of one-liners that gets really annoying really fast.

That's what I've seen people calling them. Have to say, the dialogue here, particularly in the Clark interviewing Bruce clip, is miles sharper than anything from the last movie.

I knew it was coming, but I wish they'd have kept Doomsday a secret and kept pushing forward with the idea of Batman v Superman being the central conflict.

Looks like both Superman and Clark have much more material and range going on. One of my biggest gripes with MoS was Clark seeming like a bystander who didn't day a whole lot or express himself. This doesn't seem to have that issue.

We shall see. Still haven't revealed Wonder Woman's lines yet. I think this is likely going to be better than Man of Steel. Just seems to be written a bit tighter.

The neck on that cowl is massive I wonder why, Aflecks a big dude but his neck is not that fucking thick.

holy fuck! looks epic! who cares about the neck! get over the neck!

Shit! Doomsday?!?!?! My interest in this film has suddenly gone up 100%!!!

I agree they should have kept Doomsday secret.

Still marked out, though.

Bad ass, I can't wait for this movie. It would be a worse wait if Star Wars wasn't coming out this month. No signs of Aqua man yet unless I missed it but he is in it isn't he?

Looks shit

If shit was another word for awesome I'd agree. Pretty much been waiting for this movie since the movie poster appeared in I Am Legend. Liked every thing so far, I do think Doomsday should have been more of a secret but it was cool.

I think Doomsday looks shit, but then again I have no idea how they could make his look work in a live action movie.

I will say that the CGI on Doomsday looks a bit naff, but I'm just happy to have him in a movie and not have to endure another showdown with a "human" opponent.

He had an epic fight with multiple Kryptonians in the last one.

Yeah... but they're human in appearance.

Hence why I had the word "human" in quotation marks in the post you were replying to. I wanna see a big, badass motherfucking monster, not another human actor.

Well with any luck they'll clean it up between now and then. Kinda feel like they should add more bone to him.

It's been suggested that the whole desert scene with the parademons, superman army, and superman unmasking batman is all just a dream sequence that bruce is having.

Just speculation, but it would make sense.

Trailer looked pretty cool.


Maybe Batman keeps a snack in there for when he's hungry on the job.

HAd no idea what Parademons were so I googled. This is their wikipedai picture:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Parademon.JPG

It had a weird distortion effect in it so when I saw the scene that was my first thought

Doomsday kinda looks like a troll from LOTR.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20070411221752

He looks like Zod. Obviously, I know, but I think that's why he's not 100% comic Doomsday.

How in the world does he look like Zod?

I honestly don't like this. Doomsday is one of the most important villains in superman lore, and could have been used for a death of superman movie down the line, but instead he's relegated to being a Luthor minion that will get his ass kicked in one fight at the end of the movie and never be seen again.

Just feels like a waste.

I don't agree with showing Doomsday in the trailer. Let's have some surprises.

Are Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman supposed to be in this?

Going to be a huge clusterfuck if they're not a post credit scene or something.

It's taken them this long to get a bloody team-up movie done. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any kind of "Death of Superman" storyline-based movie.

Trailers ruin everything now.

Pretty sure they already asaid they have a plan for a whole bunch of movies unless I'm remembering things wrong.

Regardless, making Doomsday luthor's muscle is equivalent to making Bane Poison Ivy's lackey.

Doubt DC would even risk doing that type of storyline again. Either they'd have to end the Superman line of films or deal with the backlash again if he's just brought back to life.

By the end of TDKRises I think many of the general audience had accepted Bruce Wayne had died, seeing as being a symbol and not a man was a theme throughout the franchise. If this second and and Superman film to follow builds up that Supes stands for hope, and that he represents it as a symbol, I'm sure the audience would buy into him dying, only to be brought back.

I mean, shit, it worked for fucking Spock.

One thing I "laughed" at was the line where Bruce Wayne said something about how he must not like Superman because he has bad experiences with people dressed like a clown.

Would have been a "good line" if Superman actually wore bright colours in this thing. Heck, I think the grey/black in Batman's costume is "brighter"/"more vibrant" than Superman's colours.

Interesting to see such a stark contrast in reception between this forum and the only other forum I frequent. Not sure what the general consensus is by "critics" or anything because I've not looked into it.

Mostly praised on here and up to now 100% panned on the other forum. I'm mostly leaning towards the latter. Poor trailer, completely tone deaf, showed pretty much the entire plot, showed off the poor acting of one of it's leads. First trailer was much more interesting, and piqued my interest a bit. Now I know the full plot, it's probably just a download once it's out on blu ray for me now.

Also I don't think they hit home the point that Lex Luther's a bit of a wild card enough. Maybe they could have him get "damaged" tattooed on his face or something. Just throwing ideas out there.

I just watched the trailer, and I liked it. Still look forward to seeing it.

The trailer does give away a lot though.

Sort of torn.

I watched Ant-Man last night and "marked out" when Falcon showed up, which wouldn't have happened if he'd appeared in the trailer, and that's just Falcon in Ant-Man.

Doomsday (if that's who it is) appearing in the trailer hasn't made me want to see the movie more, but it has robbed me of a "mark out" moment when I do see it.

Valid point m not sure why they were so quick to reveal him. Of course unless Luthor went mech suit on Supes you had to expect some kind of big bad, especially when they revealed Lex getting his hands on Zod's body in the comic con trailer.

However, giving the audience a sense that Luthor is the mega mind behind Batman and Superman fighting is the central conflict was a better idea.

We shall see what other surprises are in store.

This, pretty much. I've never been a big superman fan, but I've always loved the Death of Superman story, ever since I was a kid, because it personofies the symbol of hope and the passion of a superhero to never give up, better than any other story I can think of.

That story IS superman.

Never read it, but that idea that Superman dies because he continues to fight and fight and fight until his body cannot withstand it any longer is about as valiant a death as a demi god can receive.

Man of Steel already somewhat established what his insignia stands for. Lois has pointed out that it still means something to people in a trailer for this movie. If Bats jumps on board acknowledging he symbolizes fear but Clark truly represents hope and the good in people, the way Jor-El explained to him, by movie three or four it's plausible to think him dying and the JL trying to find a way to bring him back in another movie could work.

I'd be all for it this universe turns out as good as it has the potential to be.

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Lmao Jesus that skit never gets old.

I watch it from time to time and I always laugh. When I'm drunk I can watch it a few times in a row and burst out laughing constantly.

Zod is Doomsday's model Shannon did the Mo-cap and it looks like Zod

He might have done the motion capture but how does this look like Zod?

Jesus.

Yeah I'm not seeing it. Like, at all.

The nose looks like his nose!

Kind of looks like The Abomination.

I thought there was a resemblance.

https://youtu.be/PRjWvVQz-NI

New and supposedly final trailer for BvS

Pretty rubbish trailer to be honest.

I enjoyed Man of Steel, and am interested to see Doomsday, but this whole DC attempt at a movie universe is just pitiful.

I seem to recall telling you guys years ago this was the most likely way DC was gonna do this.

Not sure what that has to do with anything at this point.

As for the trailer, I'm on the other side of Ram. I didn't enjoy Man of Steel at all and thought it was a pile of mediocre mumbo jumbo. The dialogue they have shown here seems much better. The lines have more heft.

I'm more concerned that it's going to be a cluster fuck but we shall see. I have more faith in what I've seen to this point than I ever thought I would. I'm hoping it's just a solid movie at this point.