Yes, because MVP = Best player in the league. :shifty:

I can name 15 players that are better than Joey Votto right now in the MLB.

And that includes pitchers. FYI.

Bags was never one of the top 5 players in his era.

Griffey, Bonds, Johnson, Clemens, Gwynn, etc etc

Name a year in his career and I can tell you at least 5 better players at that point in time.

Joey Votto oozes class and sex appeal. That makes him better than everyone in the league.

Right, except that's not what you said initially at all.

1994 was a point in Bagwell's career. It could be rationally argued that Greg Maddux was better in 1994 than Jeff Bagwell, though since that was an unusually strong pitching season, Bagwell's numbers produce a higher WAR and WARP. Aside from Maddux, no one else came close. That's it.

1997 was a point in Bagwell's career. In that year, he was by all overall statistial measures the fifth best player in all of baseball. In 1999, only Pedro, Pudge and Chipper beat out Bagwell, and Pudge only does once his position is factored in. 2000-1 are another two years where most statistical measures place him in the top 5.

Again, by quite literally every reputable source and account, the ONLY more productive offensive player than Bagwell over the course of Bagwell's entire career was Barry Bonds. I'd go so far as to add Greg Maddux to the list on the pitching side, effectively making Jeff Bagwell the third best player in all of baseball from 1991 to 2005. Other than that, you're looking at a ton of pitchers who had peaks and valleys during Jeff's career, and a bunch of offensive players whose offensive output he simply dwarfed from '91-'05. Thomas would be his only other real competition in that regard had his peak and subsequent decline not occurred so early on.

World Series Hero Edgar Renteria ends up with the Reds. Looking like a 1-year, $3 mil. deal loaded with incentives.

come on guys, Koko B Ware is in the Hall for god sakes

Raul Mongedesi

It's not about being one of the best players in the game, or all that.

The letters MVP stand for MOST VALUABLE PLAYER.

Valuable to who?

To the team that player plays for.

So in terms of MVP, Joey Votto was the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to the Cincinnati Reds, a team that had been a losing franchise for some time, until last year.

Just because you win the MVP, doesn't necessarily mean you are one of the Top 5 players in the game...and just because you are one of the Top 5 players in the game, doesn't necessarily mean you should be MVP.

How many MVP awards did Hank Aaron win? One. Yet he was the first guy to break Babe Ruth's all time Home Run mark (Ruth also won one MVP award).

Yet guys like Jimmy Rollins, Terry Pendleton, Jeff Kent and Willie McGee have also won MVP awards, yet they never were "Top 5 players" when they won the award. They just were the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to their team.

I think that's what Hanso is saying though.

Looks like the Cubs are gonna get Big Game Garza from the Rays. Cubs are probably gonna send Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee, Brandon Guyer, and Robinson Chirinos. Not finalized yet, but it looks like it's gonna happen.

Brian Bannister is taking his talents to Japan. Signed a deal with the Tokyo Giants.

Finally, Carl Pavano might be going back to Minnesota for 2 more years.

<font color=goldenrod>Really don't understand what the Rays are doing. They knew they would lose Crawford, and losing Pena and his sub-Mendoza line BA isn't that big of a deal. But then they traded Bartlett and Garza and don't seem to be making any sort of play to get Soriano back, or even a guy like Balfour. They HAVE been interested in Fuentes but it doesn't sound like they'll be willing to spend enough to land him.

It's like they're conceeding that winning the division is going to be too hard now with the Red Sox' acquisitions. I know fans never show up for their games but how can they be so strapped for cash that they need to have a fire sale when they still had a team that could contend?

If anything, keep Garza until the deadline and at least make it look like you care about this season.</font>

Looking at where the Cubs prospects ranked in their system the Rays seem to be getting a solid return for Garza though. Just makes their farm system even more ridiculous.

3 of the guys are in the Cubs top 10 prospects. They're ranked #3, #4, #8 and #15.

Definitely doesn't help their chances for next season but will help them to reload for another run when some of their big guys get to the majors again. Waiting to the deadline would have been smarter I would think though.

You have Carlos Silva, Carlos Zambrano, Tom Gorzelanny, Randy Wells, Ryan Dempster, and now Matt Garza for a rotation.

Somebody other than Garza is getting bounced out. Either via trade or to the bullpen.

The Rays had plenty of starters as well, so they're dealing from their strength. Price, Shields, Davis, Niemann, and Hellickson is still an impressive rotation.

I think it depends on who performs better in the Spring between Gorze and Silva. They had been trying to trade Gorze, but I don't think it'll happen and he ends up in the pen.

Pretty excited for Garza though.

You also have to factor in Zambrano's yearly temper tantrum so it's good to have another option while he's being a big whiny bitch who doesn't deserve to wear a professional uniform.

I hope his yearly temper tantrum this year involves a 95 mph fastball at the head of Joey Votto.

I love reading Keltner lists during HOF season. Really gives you good perspective on if a guy deserves the HOF.

The Rays are essentially rebuilding. Their GM even says they cannot sustain success on their budget, so their plans are to reload, rebuild, contend, rinse repeat. By Success I mean as a WOrld Series COntender. They lose their big names, now they are rebuilding for another run.

LOL Exactly.

I am saying winning an MVP does not equate to being the best or even a great player - to dispute the claim that Bagwell is a First Ballot player by winning an MVP. So....

Basically Aquakate repeated exactly my point, to counteract my point....

The Rays used to be a $15-$20 million per year payroll team before becoming decent so it sort of makes sense why the GM or owner can't sustain long-term funding. The fanbase isn't strong enough in both revenue and interest to sustain an expensive team which probably means they don't get much in tv revenue either.

The 2010 payroll was $71 million so the team itself jumped a good $40-$50 million the last couple of years just to compete in the AL East and their youth playing great.

It won't take another 12 years to rebuild but at the same time they will be competing with the Orioles as the next team to rebound in the division unlike before when it was just the Rays alone.

It looks like Soriano really wants to play for the Yankees. He is willing to be the 8th inning guy and that's the only team that he wouldn't mind being the 8th inning guy. But, it looks like it won't happen because they don't want to lose a pick for him.

Classic Yankees. Won't go after a big name at the expense of their farm system.

I can kinda understand their reasoning a little bit. If they were saying this for Lee I would be pissed as hell. But, they do have some options for 8th inning guy. And besides with the way our offseason is going I would much rather use whatever farm resources we have for a starter or 2 at the deadline not for a 8th inning guy.

Do you know what type of free agent Andruw Jones is? Is he A or B?

Half the people in Chicago are crying because the Cubs got Matt Garza. Crying in anger because they traded 3 of their top 10 prospects.

As a Cub fan, I'm happy with the trade. Most of the Cubs prospects end up sucking anyway.

Cubs fans like to complain, whether it be something good or bad, we always find something to complain about.

We'll see what they are like once they win a World Series. They have a lot to complain about. I feel kinda sorry for the Cubs and the fans.

We won't see what its like to win a World Series...because they won't.

I'd like to see maybe another move by the Cubs this offseason...a second baseman maybe. Don't know who is available.

Andrew Jones hasn't been a type A free agent for quite a few years now, and if memory serves, he doesn't even qualify as a type B.

EDIT - just checked; he's neither. He'd cost the Yankees (or whomever) no compensation.

Just a valuable roster spot

It's funny because it's true.

Yup,
Problem is people don't know thesse names yet and think the Rays now have no pitching. They have pitching. If the Yankees or Red Sox have an off season the Rays will be a strong wild Card contender.

People wanted Hellickson to get a start last postseason. Kid is good.

I gotta say Tampa really scares me . With all this young pitching Tampa will be good for years to come. That's kinda why I don't want the Yankees to give away a great package for some great guy at the trade deadline. I want the Yankees to be filled with a bunch of young pitchers as well.

Let the record show that Hardkore Kidd J just said he wants the Yankees to be more like the Devil Rays.

I have never thought about that. But, you gotta admit it is sometimes a good strategy to have a lot of young pitchers on your team. It really does depend on how good the young pitcher/player is . Truth be told I think home grown talent is better sometimes.

I never really meant it that I want to be more like the Rays. I just think it's better sometimes to have a bunch of young promising players.

I think the Rays are gonna strike it big with this Chris Archer kid. I see big things from him.

CarGo signed his contract today

:heart:

Cubs fans are funny. They complained when the Cubs traded DeRosa to Cleveland and got nothing in return (Chris Archer). Now they trade Archer for Garza and they treat him like he's the second coming. I doubt any of the other guys (save Lee, maybe) would have had an impact on the Cubs future. IT's not like they dont have a good catcher in Soto and aren't locked up in the outfield with big contracts into eternity.

Brad Penny to the Tigers. 1-year, $3 mil.

Confusing decision there at best. That whole "let's go sign a make-good contract with an American League team" approach didn't exactly go so well for Brad Penny last time around.

Great deal for the Tigers

<font color=goldenrod>So, we're in mid-January. How would you grade your favortie team's offseasons?

Despite the relative lack of moves, I'm actually giving the Mets a solid B so far. They've stuck to the plan in not overpaying for players. If Omar was still in office, he probably would have handed out a regrettable 3 or 4 year deal. They got a new front office, new manager, haven't given out any multiyear deals except a 2-year deal for DJ Carrasco which is for basically no money. All of their acquisitions thus far can fill a need in the Opening Day roster, including both of their Rule 5 picks. I like it.

I'm certain they'll add an extra starter before the season begins (hopefully Chris Young) and possibly a lefty reliever (Beimel?) although Feliciano, Choate, and Ohman's deals kinda fucked up the market. A veteran reserve outfielder is also possible, but really not necessary. Nick Evans and Jason Pridie are probably serviceable enough.

Plus, as far as I'm concerned - the offseason isn't over until that Opening Day roster is set. There's a very good chance that Oliver Perez and Luis Castillo are getting released on cut down day, which automatically adds at least half a letter grade.</font>

I grade the Pirates a Z.

Not only is it the lowest letter in the alphabet, it's what the fans catch when they go to the games.

All-Time Saves leader Trevor Hoffman calls it a career.

601 career saves, a 2.87 ERA and 1133 strikeouts in 1089 1/3 innings for the Marlins, Padres and Brewers. Not bad for 18 seasons of work.

I'll give the Yankees a B-

Not getting Cliff Lee really hurt them. The Hammer is back for another 2 seasons, and Jeter got re-signed for 3 more seasons for a little more than he should have gotten. But I can live with it. Feliciano will do nicely in the bullpen.

News came out today they're making a run a Justin Duchscherer. Missed all of 2009 and started 5 games in '10 before his hip gave out. Cashman had to do something. Either he's tired of waiting for Pettitte's decision, or it finally dawned on him that Nova and Mitre as the 4 and 5 starters would suck. Throw him a low-risk contract and I'll be happy because time is running out.

Yeah, but Nova does deserve to be the fifth starter at least. I think we may be able to tread water until the trade deadline. I give their offseason a C.

Give the Reds a B+. They had little money to work with and they lost Arthur Rhodes, but they kept Arroyo, they upgraded at shortstop, and I love love love the Bruce contract.

I'll give the Red Sox an A-. I'm thrilled with almost all of the moves they've made this off-season from acquiring Gonzalez to signing Crawford, Jenks, and Wheeler. The only negative for me is that Gonzalez hasn't been signed to a contract extension yet, but that may happen in March or at the beginning of the season.

C- for Yankees. I would have given them a D but I approve of keeping Gardner over spending money for Crawford.

I am truly confident that the trade deadline will be A-. The Red Sox by far had the greatest off season.

My favorite team is the Cubs.

They got Carlos Pena...Matt Garza...Quade's the Manager...

...I don't know.

I'll give them a C.

Rockies get an A. Locked up their two best players. Re signed De La Rosa. Signed Wigginton to back Helton up and Jose Lopez is a good pick up. Lindstrom as well. Also they're working on signing Ubaldo Jimenez to a long term contract.

Yankees should get a higher grade from you guys for not freaking out and overpaying for an average player after losing out on Lee and Crawford.

I don't think they ever wanted Crawford. Amazing enough from what I read Brett Gardner is their Carl Crawford . I like Gardner a lot so....... But, Lee I was so sure the Yankees would get him. The Free Agent pool was a little shallow so I figured that we'd at least trade for a pitcher.

I doubt Crawford was a top priority but he was on the list of players to get or consider depending on what occurred to the Lee sweepstakes. Yankees definitely wanted Lee as their first major signing (not counting resigning Jeter or Riveria).

Crawford would have been their next priority but they spent too much time going after Lee that all they could do was attempt to drive up the price to retaliate when Red Sox kept driving up the prices on players Yankees wanted. Red Sox managed to make the Yankees spend almost $80 million on just keeping Jeter and Riveria when Yankees kept saying they wanted to spend much less than both of their asking prices.

SAN DIEGO PADRES

Traded Adrian Gonzalez to Boston for RHP Casey Kelly, 1B Anthony Rizzo, OF Raymond Fuentes, and INF/OF Eric Patterson.

Trading you best offensive player hurt, but it was the lesser of two evils when you're market doesn't allow for the type of deal Boston is going to hand him. They got two very, very good pieces in Kelly and Rizzo, who could be apart of the team as early as 2012.

Traded for and extended shortstop Jason Bartlett through the 2012 season with an option for 2013. Big time upgrade. Everth Cabrera showed he is still in dire need of developing, and Bartlett is a massive, steady upgrade over both an inexperienced Cabrera and Jerry Hairston, Jr., who saw a ton of time at short last year with injuries to Cabrera.

Signed 2nd baseman Orlando Hudson to a 2 year, $11mil. deal. Again, another strong upgrade over last year's opening day suitor, David Eckstein. Hudson is not only younger, but is head and shoulder a much better overall player than Eckstein.

Signed RHP Aaron Harang to a one year deal. Welcome home Aaron. He is a good candidate for a bounce back year considering he'll be pitching half his starts in the most pitcher-friendly park and division in baseball.

Signed RHP Dustin Mosley. Mosley will likely be the swingman for the Padres, pitching long relief for the most part but also being available for the spot start if necessary.

Signed 1B/OF Brad Hawpe to a one year, $3mil. deal. Hawpe is the likely the opening day first baseman, and prior to last year, was a very, very solid middle of the order hitter for Colorado. He's only 31, and if healthy, a return to form is not unlikely.

Traded for OF Cameron Maybin. Maybin is still only 24 years old, is projected as 5 tool prospect, and even if he puts together a year similar to CF Mike Cameron's 2 year run with the Padres, it's not only a huge upgrade, but a huge win in the trade seeing as they only dealt two relief pitchers who were not huge role players in last year's 90 win season.

They've also acquired a slew of backup catchers, but none are shoe-ins for the backup role just yet.

Grade: B-

They addressed the glaring holes they had up the middle in with Bartlett, Hudson, and Maybin. They stocked the farm system with 3 of the BoSox's top 10 prospects, 2 of which are going to be good to great players in the near future. They filled out the rotation with a reliable innings eater. And they signed a guy who is coming off one bad year, and is a solid segue into either Anthony Rizzo or Kyle Blanks taking over in 2013 with Brad Hawpe.

The only negative this year has been the loss of Adrian, but they did the best you could hope for, and I'm glad they traded for younger, high ceiling players who are a year or two away rather than risking two draft picks who may or may not pan out.

They would have been better off spending on Crawford. He's ten times the player Garnder is.

The Bruce contract and the Arroyo extension are great, but I'm not seeing Renteria as much of an upgrade of Cabrera. Seems more like a lateral move if Renteria can stay healthy.

How is that a B? They lost out on their on their most desired free agent in Lee, and while Mo and Jeter being brought back are not bad moves, the team itself is not better than it was at the beginning of the off season.

I'd call the Yankees losers this off season. Outside of signing guys, who realistically weren't ever going anywhere, they didn't do anything to significantly upgrade.

<font color=goldenrod>Sounds like Pettitte might pull a Clemens. He's informed the Yankees that he hasn't retired, but he won't be ready by Opening Day if he does end up pitching.</font>

Pettitte is great and everything but I don't think the Yankees should sit around and wait on him if he's not going to push himself to be ready for Opening Day. may be time to go a different direction.

The Yankees are not gonna be waiting for him. Pettite has told the Yankees to go a different direction. And Cashman isn't gonna be hounding him about it just get duchscherer and we're all set until the trading deadline at least.

Well actually according to Walt Jocketty, the Reds are going to have Paul Janish as their starting SS heading into spring training with Renteria coming off the bench and subbing every few games. Even though we all know Dusty loves his veterans, I'm inclined to believe Janish is going to get a decent amount of innings since he's the team's best fielder.

And if Janish can hit well enough that he can stay in the lineup, having Renteria as a pinch hitter is going to be huge.

Dodgers: added some Hawksworth pitcher from the Cards, Juan Uribe,and Jon Garland.

I love our rotation. Kershaw, Billingsley, Lilly, Kuroda, Garland. Our hitting is terrible, though. We need a power hitting 3rd baseman or Left Fielder.

Grade: B-

pitching will kill the Yanks this year. there's no way around it. I am not liking this year at all right now. I could just see this year being the kind of year where injuries pile up and shit just happens. I think they will be in the race of course, but right now thier pitching staff is too weak to carry them. I don't trust AJ at all.

Ryan Howard on his bum ankle.

LOL love Ryan Howard.

On the topic, I give the Tigers a B+. We resigned Magglio, signed Victor Martinez, got Benoit. If Zumaya stays healthy, I will totally love the bullpen. Signing Brad Penny was good too.

That divorce is killing the Dodgers right now. And as a Padres fan, I'm all for it.

This year might be Billingsley's last shot to prove whether or not he's going to live up to all the hype he's had as a Dodger.

Left field is a blackhole for them right now.

Divorce killed us more last year than it will this year. Payroll went up 20 mil. We'll be fine. But yeah, definitely need LF help. Jay Gibbons... ugh.

<font color=goldenrod>Yanks sign Rafael Soriano. 3 years, $35 million

Kyle Farsnworth to the Rays

2 good moves for the Yanks</font>

<font color=goldenrod>Actually not really. $35 million is a fuckload for a setup guy, but it the Yanks so its no biggie. I forgot they lose a DRAFT PICK for it. Pretty desparate.</font>

Farnsworth is on a team we'll see 18 times?

YES

Yea...but realistically what else is out there? Free agent crop is pretty barren and I don't know what kind of farm system depth they have and if it would be enough to trade for a younger left fielder.

The fact that Posednik might start scares me.

Soriano is a good closer and I was a little angry that they wouldn't bolster their bullpen just because of a draft pick. All though I'd prefer a starting pitcher. I guess D-Rob and Joba aren't quite the 8th inning guys you had in mind eh Cashman?

Joba, if he isn't packaged for someone, has LONG RELIEF written all over him.

Watch if a NL team signed him he would be a stud there. I think he'd be a great starter elsewhere.

He might be one of those guys who needs to be in a small market without a media and Inno calling for his head when he goes 3.1 IP 8 R 12 H

1 month till pitchers and catchers report :love: :love: :love:

He's not on the team any more.

<font color=goldenrod>I'm kind of surprised Podsednik hasn't found a team yet tbh. I think he's looking for 1 year, $3 million or something like that but the longer he waits until camp the more that number will go down.

I think he'd be the perfect kind of guy for the Mets to grab as their 4th OFer. Speed and defense are crucial for the fill-in guy.</font>

<font color=goldenrod>Jeff Francis signs with the Royals for one year. Not sure of the dollars yet, but I'd guess it's something like $1-2 million guaranteed with an extra million or 2 in incentives.

I think Chris Young may have been waiting for Francis to go off the board, so I hope the Mets throw an offer his way now.</font>

Podsednik has had a good couple of past seasons. I think he'll wind up in Anaheim.

Man, we didn't need Soriano. And that is way too much money.

And this come like 1 week after Cashman said he wasn't giving up the pick.

There must be a trade in the horizon. Someone must have wanted Joba and or D-rob in a package for a starter. That's the only way you can make sense out of it. Having Feliciano, Joba, D-rob, and Soriano is to many 8th inning guys. There's gotta be some trade.

Soriano has an opt-out clause after this season and the next one, so the Yankees may not even have to pay him all of that ridiculous set-up man money if he decides he wants to actually close on a different team.

<font color=goldenrod>Mets sign Willie Harris to a minor league deal with a Spring Training invite.

Fuck yes. Now he can't kill the Mets by making a ridiculous game-ending catch for the other team. Probably has the inside track for one of the backup outfielder spots.

Second time this week that the Mets have brought in a guy on a minor league deal with a ST invite where I think they will actually be on the Opening Day roster (the other being Taylor Tankersley as a lefty specialist).</font>

I'm all for getting Soriano. Lots of games were lost last year because there wasn't a bridge to Mariano.

Grant Balfour to the A's. 2-years, 8.1 mil with a club option for '13.

Jim Thome goes back to the Twins. 1-year, $3 mil. with incentives based on plate appearances.

Not much left on the market. Pavano is probably going back to the Twins, Manny is still out there, only about a month and a half before pitchers and catchers fly out for spring training.

oh thank god Posednik is not with us anymore. That's how much I didn't give a shit about him.

If Pods isn't signed by opening day, he'll come to the Pirates. They are the last hope for career rehabilitation.

<font color=goldenrod>Was watching a re-run from yesterday of an MLB Network series - "The Top 10 Right Now". Each episode they go over a different position and list the top 10, well, right now.

The episode I watched was on left fielders. Was funny to watch because they never stated the criteria or who was voting.

10. Raul Ibanez
9. Carlos Lee
8. Jason Bay
7. Martin Prado
6. Delmon Young
5. Matt Holliday
4. Carl Crawford
3. Carlos Gonzalez
2. Josh Hamilton
1. Ryan Braun

lol @ it clearly being based 100% on offense. Prado making the list despite a grand total of 3 appearances in left field during his career

Mitch Williams and Kevin Millar agreed with the 8-10 picks despite them having down years. Can't really see how Soriano didn't fit into that discussion. They both agreed that Hamilton should be #2 but argued for like 5 minutes about who should be #1 between CarGo and Braun.

MW: "There is NO WAY that Carlos Gonzalez isn't the best left fielder right now."
KM: "He had a good year, but look at Braun's track record."
MW: "The name of the show is RIGHT NOW!"</font>

that made me love Mitch Williams even more than I already did

Sports fans! I love you all, I am retiring officially from TPWW.

Did we miss something? What's with the retirement?

See you when the Lakers win again. :wave:

So Albert Pujols gave the Cardinals until spring training to work out a new deal with him. If not, he's gonna become a free agent after this season.

Do you believe him?

<font color=goldenrod>No. I can buy that he wants to have a deadline for a new deal before putting it aside and focusing on the season, but after the season he'll re-sign with the Cardinals.

The Cards literally have no choice in the matter. When his career is over he might be a Top 5 player of all time. Gotta keep him even though he may want 10 years and, dare I say, $300 million.</font>

Leverage. That's all that is and nothing more.

I'll give the Os a B-

New and Improved infield of Reynolds/Hardy/Roberts/Lee
New closer in Kevin Gregg, and bullpen help in Accardo

But no veteran starting pitcher and they lost Ty Wigginton who I feel would have been nice as a bench player with his versatility but it was pretty obvious he was leaving.

The offense should be greatly improved and if the pitching is as effective as it was late last year under Showalter then I might be wrong about wanting a veteran SP.

I honestly think Pujols will take a Mauer like deal. I dont see him wanting to go anywhere else. Just seems like the type of guy that wants to stay with one team his whole career.

Reds give their MVP Joey Votto a 3-year, $38 mil. extension.