still 3 episodes to go!

Come on, who DIDN'T think he was gonna turn out to be some creepy pervert pedo old man at the beginning of the show?

Having re-watched the episode (I missed a little on the first airing), I'm probably 90% sure Frank's not dead. And that he will come out of nowhere in the finale to fly the plane home.

Franks death ios on par with as shitty an exit as Ilana.

Plus, a water tight hatch like that weights a few hundred pounds, and the pressure it takes to rip it off is enough to kill a man 10 times. I think they killed him off, but didnt want his death to be such a big event that it took away from the season 1 characters.

They really should've at least mentioned him on the beach at the end. For now I am just going to assume he is dead, but will not be even 1% shocked if he turns up alive at some point.

He was there to keep open the possibility of flying the plane home.

I know he had a weak death, but you cant give everyone a heroic death scene, sometimes people are just unfortunate.

Plus, as Hanso said, you didnt want it to overshadow the Jin/Sun/Sayid death scene. Would have been nice if someone asked about him though. He looked so happy when they got to the plane and thought he could fix it too.

He will be missed though.

However, I am glad they have narrowed the field down significantly.

Speaking of people remaining, I love how it breaks down...

People who were born/controlled the Island
Widmore
Ben
Richard
Miles


Survivors of 815
Jack
Kate
Sawyer
Hurley

People with superpowers
Jacob
Desmond
MiB

Nutjobs
Claire

oops, forgot about Claire

Ah, they don't count. Unless they become important all of a sudden

I thought it was obvious that Rose was the oracle off Matrix and she will help combine the two universes.

Im willing to bet that the origins of jacob and the mib are a parallel of the story of Kane and Abel or a type of god vs. the devil in that the island is the gate of hell, and jacob or the candidates are the gatekeepers keeping the mib in.

Now that someone brought it up, it would make sense that sawyer could become the next mib. Now I know he isnt evil and has done heroic things, but in a lot of archetypal stories, a hero can become a villain by going through too much and not dealing with the adversity that has been but on him. I think all he needs is for a few more shitty things to happen to him and jack to be the indirect/direct cause of it and they will be enemies on the level of mib and jacob.

Being responsible for the deaths of 3 major characters should weigh very heavily on his conscience.

Or MIBs mom sacrifices him to the island....Someone has to "eat" the evil to contain it, a la Diablo or Green Mile. MIB never wanted the job, so Jacob has to keep him in line.

MIB is just a man that wants to go home, but was pulled into a role he never watned, keeping evil at bay.

Thats my new theory.

Like thats why he said he had a crazy mom. She threw him to the wolves to become keeper of evil.

Humans for all life have been coming to the island to seal away evil. Evil prevented childbirth so they built a statue of tawaret.

Jacob and MIB were brought aschildren to the island society. MIB is forced to take in theevil, snaps and kills everyone except JAcob whom he cant. He dedicates himself to get off the island, so JAcob spends the rest of his life bringing people to the island to stop him.

Really goin wild with this ancient civilisation/jacob/mib ideas here, its good, but I dunno if such a detailed story can fit and work at this late in the whole story.

The more I have been thinking about how it ends, the more I am leaning to it all being resolved off Island, despite the fact I want a resolution on Island. I have got this feeling when the realities merge, or however this ends, its the new alternate reality that is going to be the time/place/existence where they all end up afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stand

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tand_cover.jpg

Yes on Kane and Abel. This is exactly what I think.

I'm not sure if it will be flat out hell. I don't think they'd commit to a particular religion. The ancient cultures seemed to liken the whole thing to Egyptian theology of an underworld, with MIB being Cerberus and Jacob possibly being Tawaret or Anubis.
It makes sense that modern dwellers would liken it to hell, and God vs Satan.

Wasn't Anubis the god of war? of the dead? I could see Jacob representing the dead more because of the whispers and other religious/mythological elements of the show.

But yeah, I don't think it's going to be a flat out 'heaven vs hell' kind of scenario. Jacob and MIB been likened to Kane and Abel is not something new I'm afraid to say.

DHARMA called the smoke monster the Cerberus system, Cerberus of course is said to guard the underworld, represented by the Island I guess or where it leads.

The hieroglyphics that appear on the DHARMA countdown timer when the button is not pressed translate as 'Underworld'.

All these ideas and likenesses are all valid and have substance, that is what is so good, it all applies, but at the same time they have not stuck to one specific route/possibility.

I think they should keep the nature of the mythos a mixture of all things, and open to interpretation. If they go specificially with Judeo-Christian ideas it kind of takes away from other things, and takes the mythology out of it's own world.
It should be it's own thing, and conventional religiions are perhaps different cultures ways of trying to understand the real and unique island.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
- Harvey Dent

"(Unintelligible guttural noises)"
- Batman

new podcast is up if anyone is interested

http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/201...#axzz0nHXiCe5t

it doesnt really matter.... every single religion including the ancient ones, have all the same archetypes in them, good/evil, light/dark, sun/moon. Its all really the same it just differentiates by the name given.

every religion has a gaurdian of the underworld and someone who is in it that either wants out or runs it.

Very true. That's sort of the reason why I want it to be it's own mythology. Even if it corresponds to various other religions and myths, I think Lost should have it's own mythology

Maybe Jacob/MiB is what all religion is based on. Just different interpretations by what become all the different religions.

Dunno how they'd represet that though

This was all a dream while they went to mars.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vHgS8WUxkjE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vHgS8WUxkjE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Called it way back in the episode we first saw him, the kid must be Jacob as a young kid, MIB & Jacob: KIDS.

Indiginous people, called it

I am an other.

Shit goin down tonight!!

I can't stay up late enough to catch it but fo sho I'll be back here same time tomorrow to comment. ENJOY GUYS!!!!

Im hoping its a great one and this thread is very busy tomorrow

can't wait for this one

Had a dream about Lost last night, pretty excited for this episode, hoping it delivers. It better answer a lot of fucking questions and not just be boring and average.

Have to be honest...that was a huge letdown

Agree. Pretty much done with Lost. Was super excited for this episode and it wasn't much of anything. Sorry if I don't care about some stupid ass light. Should have quit this when I got fed up during season 3 and stopped for awhile. Only 3 and a half hours of Lost left though, will finish it up. Think it'll take a lot for those episodes to leave me satisfied and glad I stuck with it. Hell last weeks episode with all those deaths I just didn't care. Dunno.

Im not done with Lost by any means, just a little letdown for this episode. I was hoping for a little more Island history.

That was a complete pile of shit.

We get "answers" but not explanation.

Knew this was gonna happen after this ep. People are never happy in this situation.

But goddamn, does the main through line of Lost ever seem to be "Parent's fuck ya up good".

Or perhaps the theme is dont have kids cause they make ya crazy. Seriously though, I cant think of one character who didnt have parent problems. Charlie maybe?

I can see the argument where people might think this episode had nothing in it, but I really liked it. I love how this episode confirms that the person the audience assumed to be the all knowing being of the island throughout the series really doesn't really presume to know all the answers. Jacob took a leap of faith and trusted his "mother" in eventualy taking her spot as the protector. He didn't completly understand what exactly he was protecitng, but in his heart he felt he was doing what was right. Sound familiar?

Then we have the MIB. The person who we thought was the MIB in his original form really wasn't such a bad guy after all. He was just curious and wanted answers. So now we see that Smokey just took his form after he went into the tunnel. And Smokey goes back long before Jacob and his brother. I am assuming the real mother appearing to Jacob's brother was the Smoke Monster and that "It" took out that whole camp.

But my favorite part of the episode was that ending. The whole sequence cutting to Jack, Kate and Locke was amazing. I think that was the 1st or 2nd episode, right? It made me think look how far we've come from back then and where we are right now knowing so much more about the island. Really loved that.

Alot of people seem to hate when they flashback like that, but I thought it was cool here. It was such a long ways ago and more of an "innocent" (for lack of a better word there) time in the show

yea, exactly. Innocent, good way to put it. we knew nothing back then and all of us had some many different theories going through our heads.

It was the same way I felt at the end of last week when the four finalists were on the beach and they took a moment to break down finally. It was just a small scene where they were alone and it was like years of what they had been through all came rushing forward. Totally different scenes but they made me feel the same way.

I liked the little flashback scene. Didn't care about the Adam and Eve storyline really, but thought it just flowed well and was a good reflective scene. Will give the eps that.

That was probably the worst episode of Lost I can recall.

I'm not complaining that we didn't get more answers, or more explanations or whatever. The episode was just written in such a way that it moved incredibly slowly and painfully to give the few points that it had to give.

I kept debating myself in my brain about whether or not it was Allison Janney playing the mother. First I was like oh yeah def her but then later I was like no way def not. Shoulda gone with my instincts,

OK well I did stay up in the end and I did watch it.

Mmmmm....

I thought it was a good episode. But I feel as though it's been misplaced this far down the line, I feel as though it should've been in season 5, but it really didn't have a space there, I dunno.

Still didn't explain anything about what the Island is, how 'Mother' came to be and how she knows all about the rules and what needs to be done.

Nothing about the statue which I thought we would see.

I feel as though these holes will be revealed in the finale, maybe.

So the MIB in season 6....I assume it is totally the smoke monster mixed with the memories and nature of Jacob's brother, since his body is now in the caves. Same with Locke, his body is in the ground, but the MIB seems to know Locke's entire existence.

And all the stuff about 'good people' and being flawed and killers doesn't apply as much as I thought since 'Mother' and 'Jacob' are murderers.

One big thing... how in the blue hell did 'Mother' burn the whole village and kill everyone?

Yeah I wasn't overly impressed by this episode in all honesty. And it's not often I would say that about Lost, but I was looking forward to this episode for weeks. I still thought it was a decent episode, but not for the 3rd to last episode ever, and I was definitely expecting more clear cut answers, but ah well.

I'm full of flu though so that could generally be making me think negatively.

Its not that I was really alot of expecting huge answers or reveals, its the episode was done very poorly I felt.

I hope everyone upset about the lack of answers realizes that if they had given a more concrete explanation of what the island "is" or what the statue is you would be just as disappointed, right?

Any technical explanation would just come across as completely absurd. I feel a lot of people have unreasonable expectations.

I thought this episode was just fine, maybe a little slow but still interesting

I don't think so mate. At this point I am just wanting to know what is what. Been watching it for 6 years and with 2 episodes left, it is now at the point where getting some answers, some definition of what has kept us glued for the whole time is required to make the journey complete. Its been great, all the cliffhangers, the slow build ups where things are gradually revealed. But I feel as though ANY answer, as long as it's true to the nature of the show, is what is needed to make the puzzle complete. No one makes a puzzle and destroy it before the final few pieces are in place.

I don't mind if there is a degree of mystery left, but too many corners are being cut I feel at the moment. If you compare the pace of season 1 or 2 to this one - I dunno, they coulda spread this season out by another half at least. And again, fair enough that's the way LOST has gone and I love it, but I also want answers.

Even in that one episode, things are shown and revealed but it doesn't correlate to what we have seen....

who finished the construction of the donkey wheel after the well was filled back in? How come it was frozen in the season 4 finale?

I dunno, we'll see how the finale ends up I guess.

stop being such a buzzkill.... I WANT ANSWERS

I also found it interesting last night that Jacob's brother can see the dead like Hurley can

I kinda figured that Jacob throwing his brother (why did they never mention his name? Did she never give him one?) into the light was what released the black smoke monster.

yea, I just actually thought about that this morning and I think that is correct. I originaly assumed it was the Monster appearing as the original mother to Jacob's brother, but yea, "It" was not released yet. So it must of been the other 'mother'

I don't think the monster took out the camp since it wasn't released at that point, and why would he? the camp were men of greed and badness, it's kind of people.

OK I wrote that out then went to get a drink and posted it so ignore it.

Still, how did she take out the whole camp?

And there is also something else that is interesting that I have overlooked. The smoke monster as an entity wants to leave the Island, as does the MIB as a person - combined, and it's one determined 'thing'. Yet Jacob has appeared in all of the candidates lives at some point - so how and why is Jacob able to leave willy nilly?

Im not necessarily looking for answers as to how things work, but rather why...For instance...

I know what the Statue of Tawaret is. Its a statue. Fine. I want to know who put it there and who built the temples.

I dont want to know how the circle of ash protects you from the monster, but why is it ash. Why isnt it a circle of carrots?

I am fine with supernatural explanations of things, but I want to know how we got from Jacob kills his brother, fast forward 2,000 years to them sitting on the beach.

That is such a huge timeframe to not see in what has become the focal point of the show.

I am just assuming that the protector of the island has a shit load of powers and can take out an army if they wanted to at any time for a greater cause.

Lot of assuming with this show

dunno about Jacob leaving. Again could be just a thing the protector of the island can do.

Yeah. That's one of the thngs I expected to find out in this last episode (Jacob coming and going). It is odd how they've shown the actual MiB (can we pick a name for him now?) and Smokey to have the same motive in leaving.

If it was Jacob's job to protect the light - and he fucked it up - what's did his job become? Keeping smokey on the island?

Did the light become the Smoke Monster? Or was the light keeping the monster at bay? WTF was the light anyway?

How did the mother destroy the village/kill the people and fill the well in by herself? How did the well get fixed and the wheel positioned if 1) it was filled in and 2) the very people who's idea it was (and everyone that knew about the idea) died shortly thereafter?

And we still don't know who built the temple and statue? Just what is the Black Smoke? What's the deal with dying in child birth. etc, etc.

A lot to cover in these last couple episodes.

Well the guy you see sitting on the beach with Jacob is the SMoke Monster appearing as Jacob's brother.

Also...

And this is an observation into a possible continuity/timeline error...


As Richard's ship is approaching with Jacob and MIB on the beach...MIB asks Jacob if he has any idea how badly he wants to kill him, to which Jacob answers yes. He then states that one day he will find his loop hole, supposedly so he can leave....So from this we know he wants to kill Jacob and that he wants to leave.

Fast forward to some time later when Richard's ship has arrived and all the events of 'Ab Aeterno' have happened and Jacob is sitting with MIB once again...

Jacob: So you tried to kill me?

MIB: You expect an apology?

Jacob: No, I guess I'm just wondering why you did it?


Things like this just seem like they made a mistake, or have I made a mistake?

i think you have the instances reversed... i think when richard got there was the first time he tried to kill jacob

that ship approaching was the french people... there was a huge storm going on when the black rock approached

?? So this is the first time they have seen each other in 2,000 years? It doesnt make any sense.

Im going to assume MiB cant leave the Island because he suffered a fate worse than death, where he is ultimately trapped as this smoke monster.

Did going into the glowing cave release some sort of ancient evil and thats why Jacob is there? The mother made it seem like they were there to protect the energy source while Jacob says he is there to keep the smoke monster from leaving. So which is it?

Yes this is true, but I think part of Jacob's brother still exists. Every scene we have seen him in, esp with Richard, you can tell he is playing the same character, and not just some supernatural smoke entity. I dunno, could be wrong, but when they converse, he comes off as being the guy who really is Jacob's brother. If he was JUST the smoke monster surely his language, gestures would be something alien like?

MIB also recites the exact same thing 'Mother' says about people who come to the Island, 'they come they destroy...etc', it could be the monster 'accessing his memories' like it did with Locke.

Also, when he talks to Richard, he says he was robbed of his humanity and his body. Could just be the actual monster using that as a means of manipulation.

But yeah, too much to cover and answer I think. I think the finale will be awesome don't get me wrong, but I can see a degree of disappointment on the horizon with regard to answers. And answers are important now.

No, the ship approaching is the Black Rock. The Statue is still intact during the first MiB/Jacob scene. We know now that it was the Black Rock that crashed into it.

To the point about the conversation...I think Jacob knows MiB wants to kill him, but was sort of saying..."So, you really did try to kill me" as in, you werent just talk, you really tried to do it you SOB.

Na man, not got it wrong...

Them on the beach (The Incident, season 5) was def before when they sat on the log with the bottle of wine (Ab Aeterno, season 6).

It was NOT the french people. They came after.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ncident012.jpg

But yeah, I consider the whole dark and stormy vs daylight and calm thing a big fuck up. I think they decided as they got to that point that they would change it and have the ship destroy the statue - I mean everyone was saying it was 'days away from the Island still' - fuck off it's as clear as daylight how close it is, a mile or two at the most. And a wooden ship up against dense stone statue, and the statue falls? come on!

Yeah here is my current take....

The white light that Mother said needed to be protected is 'the heart of the Island' and what it is, is something that is inside every man - I think it takes the right man or right person to 'have it' or guard it in this case. If the wrong type of soul claims it, the power becomes darkness and evil. Mother thought MIB was special, in a good way. He is the 'Bad Twin' of the two.

what makes you think it's the first time they've seen each other in 2000 years?

Yea, the cave/light thing I am trying to make sense in my head. To me, it's like if someone (a corrupt human) who is not pure went into the cave, it releases the monster. Dunno, it's a reach, but I'm thinking along those lines

I could go with that theory. I would assume thats what is happening, but its a little jumbeled.

I hope we get a little more in depth on this. This episode would have served better earlier in the season I think.

Yeah that is what I think also.


In my pervious post I mentioned the phrase 'Bad Twin'.

Unless you read about it or actually did the Lost Experience game you will not know...

Apparently the guy who got sucked into the turbine engine thingy in the very first episode is a guy called Gary Troupe, who was an author, who wrote a book 'Bad Twin'. A little nod and foreshadowing of things to come

Have a read..

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gary_Troup

this is one I am going to disagree with you on and I hope they answer this fully. I think MIB completely died in last night's time. I think the Smoke Monster took over his looks and everything else about him. Like his character. I think the SMoke Monster has the power to do this.

So you think the Smoke Monster is a completely different entity, sort of the bad twin if you will to the Island's glowing light? Possible, but I still go back to what the mother said about suffering a fate worse than death.

yes, I think the Light and the Smoke are the two higher things, not Jacob and his brother.

Yeah I dunno I got nothing serious to go on other than the fact whenever it's been the MIB or Locke, it's like there are times where as if it seems they are two entities, like Venom, a symbiotic force which takes over, but doesn't completely overtake who it 'claims'. Do you think it's a coincidence that as Locke, the monster yelled out 'Don't tell me what I can't do', or that as Jacob's brother he recites the exact same thing 'Mother' said to him as a child? or that the MIB and the monster both want to leave? MIB to find his home, which he explains as Locke, and the monster to 'end everything'?

I dunno, if I am totally wrong about that, then like I said, the monster at least is able to acess and harness the memories/life of whoever it takes the form of.

Well im wondering if the monster is trying to humanize his wishes by saying he wants to go home as a way to get sympathy. Perhaps he just wants to leave and wreak havoc.

The thing is, why would the darkness, the opposite of 'the light' originate from the light?

And do we even know that that light in the cave is the only one of it's kind? There are pockets of energy/light all over the Island, do we know for sure that is the only one that is truly special and overall more important? - It pretty much seems like the same light/energy as the one in the Swan and the one down the well.

Yeah I think that is the overall goal of the monster. It was released/manifested by a darkened/troubled soul and so its like 'the game is on' from that point on. If it leave the Island, then it becomes defiant and absolute and will end existence.

Yet it was/is also the goal of Jacob's actual brother. And while he is now sentenced to a suffering worse than death, what true benefit would it be to him if HE left if it meant the unmaking of existence?

Jesus, my head is spinning. This is just once aspect of the show, so much more to cover and sort out, I really hope it works.

But then why not give Jacob's brother a name?

This leads me to my next point...Jacob's brother constructed the donkey wheel, but never completed it.

As we have seen, later civilizations seemed to have worshipped the smoke monster. I wonder if he appeared to them as a God, offered them protection, and instructed them to finish the wheel, in hopes of moving the Island and getting off it.

That's a good theory, and one that must be close to being correct.

I just don't know where to go with it, I mean what does it mean if we don't find out? to me it's kinda a bad thing.

They have said they would answer some questions, but not within the context of the show.

What they should do is release some sort of book or something that is written like an archeological journal or something about the history of the Island.

Yeah I guess that would be cool, but nothing compared to seeing it on screen. I expect that not everything will be explained, but this being the last season, I'm thinking maybe instead of the alternate reality, we should've gone back to flashbacks but on-island flashbacks. I dunno, depends how cool, good and significant the ending to the way they have gone turns out.

Agreed...this could all be moot in a week and a half if the ending blows us away. I would have loved a few Island flashbacks or at least one episode devoted to a flashback of the entire Island's history.

Also, young MiB saying his game came from Across the Sea reminded me of that Family Guy sketch of movies where characters on screen say the name of the movie in the movie.

LOL yeah come to think of it that happens a lot in LOST, can already think and remember several:

- Live together, die alone
- three minutes
- Enter 77
- man of science, man of faith
- Every man for himself

Man Behind the Curtain, Incident....Yeah it happens alot but for some reason it just stuck out to me last night, haha. Maybe it was the kid's delivery of the line.

I might of mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again.

I don't think there is a chance in hell they would release it or even make it - but I bet within a certain amount of time, somewhere out there a LOST fanatic who knows his editing and who would dedicate the time and effort will one day make a chronological version of LOST and put it up for torrent download. I would be one of those who download it just for a different viewing experience.

So I dont agree that the brother "Released" the smoke monster and they arent the same.

They Are one in the same.

Jacobs fate worse than death is to be stripped of his mortal body and live forever trapped on the island as a smoke monster.

He still cant harm Jacob even as SMokey as the rules dont let brothers hurt each other. He still is the same guy, with the same crazy mother stories, looking to leave the island and go across the sea.

Anyone notice the Mother said the same line about humans as MIB did in his first appearance about them corrupting and fighting?

Yeah I have mentioned it like twice :D

LOL fuck me

I scanned this thread quick whilst I ate my lunch!

I think the game changed when he went into the water cave though.

'Mother' said to Jacob that she must let him (his brother, the MIB) leave because it is his choice, so even though he doesn't know how, it appears as though he can leave. And the consequences were that one of her chosen guardians, the one she favored up till then, was not up to the job.

Then when Jacob's brother becomes the smoke monster, it became more about 'evil' escaping the Island (the wine bottle/cork/Island analogy) and spreading into the world/universe.

It's like two separate characters, becomming one, who have the same goal.

The more I think about the evidence, the more it does suggest that MIB, Jacob's brother is still very much part of the smoke monster/Locke - all the stuff he said to Richard about 'the devil' taking his body and his humanity. Sure he was the rotter of the two brothers, but he didn't seem totally corrupted - he felt remorse and upset when he killed his mother. And then the speech he gave Sawyer in 'The Substitute' about knowing what it was like to feel pain, and betrayal etc.