Probably would have transitioned to a Kane-like role after a while. He'd still be an active wrestler but be used more to help other rising stars or be a reliable big name whenever the WWE needed star power quickly.

The DEMON Hart

Think Bret would/would've been a role similar to Triple H where he gets a high profile feud every now and then and appears sporadically.

wonder if fucking Stephanie is also part of that role:naughty:

Perfect, a DQ on the headlining fight of one of the biggest cards of the year.

So any time Hogan refuses to do a JOB he's a "wang"...sorry, a "giant wang", and when Bret does it its cool because he had 50-50 matches with Austin where he won every time.

Awesome.

Also, people are really going out of their way to ignore the fact that Bret didn't wanna lose the belt in Canada because he was "a Canadian hero" and it would hurt him personally. Those words literally came out of his mouth and there's still this attempt to ignore it and justify him not wanting to job by saying HBK was a dick and THAT was the problem. The guy was a ridiculously huge mark for himself.

WOw lots of Hart fag sucking dick in this thread

Also find it funny a bunch of hourly sandwich artists are defending Harts "preofessionalism" and how he handled his career and relationship with his employer.

This is why you make 7 bucks an hour.

OMGZ that makes Vince and idiot? Man Heyman must have been such a fucking tool moron then since he let his champions walk without a deal!

Surely there isnt business reasons to defend both parties right? No they just suck. A hot act catching fire on the way out of town and having a hard time agreeing to a deal makes the owner a fucking moron! Hope he might win out makes him a moron.

Letting Jarrett leave won Vince the Monday night wars. what an AMAZING deal for one nights bonus pay.

You think Anvil had ANY impact on business.

Give his spoit to Brakkus and the same money is made.

Fair to Cena, but no, the booking doesnt let him "lose" enough.

Hes put guys over, but they book around that and wipe it out.

Owens is all you need to see. Owens wins! WHOOO! Then gets booked to go down twice and is shuffled down the deck.

Edge in 2005
Orton
Batista
Nexus
etc

Cena puts them over but then creative buries them

so in short Cena gets blamed for their mistakes.

Bob Backlund running for president was good politicking. He had a bow tie so you knew he meant business.

Mr. Backlund is always SRS BSNSS.

Backlund is incredible

I won't argue that. But him being there didn't hurt business and he played a part in a cool time it wrasslin. Most importantly anvil helped Bret in his younger days get over, nothing wrong with bret paying it back. Like any of us wouldnt?

Lol did I say any time? I brought up one time with bret and half brought up sting. I'd say much of hogans run was better spent with him winning. Kind of woulda killed the Hogan mystique if he did 50/50 booking.

Bbutt u nottice when guys came out if feuds with Bret, tthey seemed crredible buuut when guys came out of feuds with Hogan, they died? Okay ;-) I'm being cheeky now

Met him outside before a local house show a few years back...couldn't believe he was wearing shorts as it was pretty chilly, so I told him so...probably one of my coolest experiences yet with hoing to shows and interacting with some of them was him replying at all, let alone saying something slong the lines of "I'm used to it" or "I wear them all the time, it's no big deal".

Got much love for any wrestler that will go out of their way to talk to/meet/sign autograph(s)/shake hands/generally be nice to their fans.

Hey, I agree, but thats the position Vince put himself in, and its not like he hadnt done a main event DQ in the first full priced In Your House 2 months prior. We can't pretend he isn't guilty of pulling a DQ finish when it suits, so its not exactly being backed into a corner.

What they should have done is have Bret Hart get abducted during the match by either Men in Black or Aliens. That would explain why he is gone and he wouldn't have to drop the belt. Then they hold a tournament for the belt at the December In Ya House ppv.

:y:

I'm happy flair and Bret kissed and made up cuz they are both the biggest marks for themselves

Stop for a minute, put yourself in Brets shoes.

1. You worked over 300 days a year for 14 years.

2. You turned down big money to stay with the WWF twice.

3. You tried to make amends with a drug addict / policking asshole where you offered to
put him over only be told "fuck you, I'll never do the same to you.

4. You have a 20 year contract with the company you love and then they tell you, less than
a full year into the contract, "sorry - we can't pay you, you can go to the opposition".

5. You offer to put the said drug addict over the next night on RAW if he showed you some
respect by putting you over.

6. You offered to lose to anyone else in the company

7. Your lawyer had written a letter to Vince requesting that you job to Steve Austin

8. You had creative control over your last 30 days


You are doing the company a huge favour by letting them out of a legal binding 20year contract. The least they could have done was let you leave without having to job to a drug addict that you have a personal issue with.

That doesn't seem unbiased.

how is it biased when it was putting you in the shoes of Bret? and secondly, are any of the above not documented facts?

What's the story here?

A Tru one

You know what they could've done to solve the issue? Book the screwjob as a work. Tell Bret he's gonna get screwed, go make his three year money in Wcw, and come back for an epic return feud against Vince and co.

Could've been amazing.

Brian Pillman sort of pulled something similar in WCW. Told Bischoff about wanting to do a storyline of him getting "fired" as part of his Loose Cannon gimmick. He would wrestle for a while in ECW to keep up the charade of being "fired" before making his epic return to WCW.

Turns out Pillman fooled everyone at WCW and used it as a legit way to get out of WCW and go to the WWF at the first moment possible.

Lol didn't know that. Seeing as Bret seemingly did not want to leave, I couldn't see him not returning down the line has things went well.

Lol this is so retarded beyond words

Where does it say on that list about Bret Hart refusing to take Nash's powerbomb at the Royal Rumble?

Would Nash job to the sharpshooter?

You mean when Diesel lost clean to Bret at Survivor Series? And then whiny fag Bret wouldn't take Diesel's finish at the Rumble, even though Taker was going to interfere and cost Diesel the match.

Ain't no bigger Bret Hart mark than Bret Hart.

THANK YOU

You have no idea how much respect I lost for Bret after I started reading and hearing him talk about backstage stuff. He was loved in Canada, sure. But the country wasnt going to go into mourning if he lost a fake fight.

Bret and Taker wrestled at Rumble. And Bret essentially jobbed to taker. Took the tombstone, was down for the 3 until Diesel pulled the ref out.

He wanted to look strong going into Mania in that cage match at the following in your house, cuz if he took the jack knife and all but lost, he'd look pretty fucking weak going into the mania main event.

Had my events mixed up.

Lol going strong at the expense of the Diesel vs Taker match.

If you book the cage match 50/50 how does that hurt diesel?

Just watched the finish, Diesel even had the match won, just no powerbomb, he looked plenty strong. I don't think it's much to ask to have your champion going into the main event at mania NOT looking like a complete jobber.

Diesel just came off a long title reign. How would have Bret looked like a jobber? It's not like Bret was against Sparky Plug Holly

So, in conclusion, Bret Hart rules. Diesel is a bitch.

So at the previous rumble in 1995, it woulda been cool if Diesel visually tapped to the sharpshooter after a ref bump? So Bret could look strong going into his match with Backlund. It wouldn't have hurt Diesel going into his match with Michaels, since y'know, Bret had a pretty lengthy title reign himself, in fact his 2nd one.

Yeah that would have been cool. You have HBK coming off a Rumble win who is a clear under dog in terms of size, but against a vulnerable champ.

It would have been fucking stupid. Diesel's run was shit because they spent most of it making him looking vulnerable, and not being a badass.

WWE shoulda given Sid the push that Diesel got. Sid> Diesel.

Oh dear god lol

WOULD YOU STOP

Who would you rather have batting cleanup for your softball team?

Perhaps the most valid question in the history of our sport.

Abe Knuckleball Schwartz would be the first guy you'd pick though. Then Sid.

You're right. Good pitching should always come before good hitting. You could even add Brooklyn Brawler if you want your softball team to have a hint of "MLB SlugFest" to itself.

This is stupid. The question was who do you want batting cleanup. And you are talking about pitching.

Fucking commie

I liked "The Money Pit". That is my response to that.

Also a knuckleball is a type of pitch used in baseball/softball. So kiss my ass.

Not to bring up Montreal again (but I'm about to, so meh), but I thought this was interesting. It's the full transcript of the Bret/Vince conversation when Bret was wearing a wire the night of Montreal. Edited bits of this were used on Wrestling With Shadows, but the full thing is a good read:

-

McMahon: Have you given some more thought on what you'd like to do?

Hart: I think what I'd like to do is get through today, and I think tomorrow I should go in and do my speech and forfeit the title. I think everyone on the planet knows, and I think it allows me a chance to leave with my head up and leave in a nice way. If I lose anywhere, everyone knows I'm going to lose. They're waiting for it. And then at the same time for the next few weeks I can have matches where I think people would be kind of sympathetic. I got the feeling last night in Detroit that they, well, they kind of booed me, but I was a heel all the way through the match until the end of the match. Then when I walked around they, everyone was very emotional. People were crying, hugging me. It was like a ten minute walk around the ring. I don't think, they dropped, it was not a work anymore. I think that's the right way to do it.

McMahon: Sensing that, it seems like everybody knows. There does seem to be that sympathy factor, too.

Hart: I think I would feel really good about that. It would make me feel better. Me and Shawn could take the edge off. I don't have to beat Shawn. We could have a shmazz (run-in non-finish) or whatever you want. For me, I don't have any authorization or permission (from Bischoff) to do anything more than what I asked them. I haven't spoken to anybody.

McMahon: That's what Pat (Patterson) told me.

Hart: All I know is that I asked them, can I do a final four match on the 7th? And they said `that's okay.' I don't really know if you want them dictating anything to you or me either. But I don't really have the right to call them back and say, `They changed it. I'm working a single match on the 7th.' They might say, well, that's not what you promised, or not what you said. The same about tomorrow (on Nitro). I haven't got, but I believe I will get some kind of word from them that, because I expect to hear from somebody even today, that I can try to get them to stop, or to not announce that I'm going anywhere. I wonder if it's even worth it now. Everyone knows.

McMahon: It's probably not.

Hart: But I would feel much better doing that. It would give me the right, I'd feel, I'd like to leave and say nice things and leave with.

McMahon: Yeah. I'm all for that. One of the things I want to ask you about is, what exactly did you mean in that TSN interview when you said something to that extent of, that it's not (the situation regarding Hart's decision) what it appears, and that's true. It's not. But I didn't know where you're going with, what the hell was that phrase, the deceitful business practices?

Hart: I don't know. I was kind of scrambling. I have no idea. To be honest, I felt pretty bad. I felt bad about having to sort of.

McMahon: Address it?

Hart: Well, I kind of felt bad that I had to fight as hard all week long to sort of leave with my head up. I thought it wouldn't be such a hard fight.

McMahon: Well, I appreciate that.

Hart: I thought, it's kind of been really hard. I broke out in cold sores and everything. I've been so stressed out on it. Even in Toronto when they asked me to do the job in the six-man. Geez, why would they beat the only Canadian in the match, in Canada, in Toronto? It's like almost like you, if you wanted to aggravate me or really keep pushing my…

McMahon: Stick you with a stick.

Hart: Yeah. It's like jeez, I didn't have a problem last night or anywhere else. But it just seems like, it wasn't, well I didn't think it was a very good call.

McMahon: Well you and I have. . .

Hart: If it's going to start to get nasty, like where it's, well I don't want to get nasty. I never ever wanted to leave here with any kind of bad feelings. But this week has been a bad week for me. I feel it's been really bad for me. I feel kind of betrayed a little bit.

McMahon: Well, I do too a little bit. And it hasn't been a good week for me either. And like I said before, I'm determined this is going to wind up the right way. Because it should. And it should. So let's just make it that way.

Hart: Work backwards.

McMahon: Yeah.

Hart: And go forward again.

McMahon: Yeah.

Hart: Well, that's what I'd like to do.

McMahon: Okay.

Hart: I think it would be the classy way to go. I think it would be applauded by all sides. I think people would look at it as a nice, nice exit for me. Everyone knows. (They're thinking) How's he gonna exit? How's he gonna leave? I think it's the right way for me to go. I've never had a problem putting somebody over. I don't so much have a problem putting Shawn over, mind you I don't appreciate some of the things he's said, but my biggest thing is I think how this thing has been depicted, like the way it's aimed, it's really hard for me as a hero here to come up short this weekend, or tomorrow or the next day. And I've had nothing to do with the word getting out.

McMahon: I know that.

Hart: All I've tried to do is fend off the.

McMahon: And again, as I mentioned to you when we had these conversations, all we're talking about is really is Ted Turner. That's what's coming between you and me. And that's all. I can't tell you how appreciative I will always be for everything you've done for this company. And like I said in our previous conversations I'd just be damned even though it's Ted Turner's money and Ted Turner's all that kind of shit,that's no reason for two people who have spent as much time as we have spent together through the years and have worked as closely as we have had through the years, it's no reason to have any problems.

Hart: I couldn't agree more. I didn't want to leave with any problems. Actually I didn't want to leave at all. And then it's a point where you just, it seemed like there was no other choice but to go. But I've had a lot of hard feelings through the week I think over just what I thought should have been a fairly easy, I should have been able to leave fairly easy for just for what I've put in. (at this point the discussion breaks from the subject talking about other wrestlers, the fax machine story that is in the
movie, WCW, what he wants to be remembered as a wrestler for, his legacy, and working with Hogan and his hoping the WWF would never erase his history from their history).

Hart: I guess that's kind of why I've been so stubborn about this because for my 15 years here, it's been such a great story. . .

McMahon: Uh, huh.

Hart: Well, it's 14 years, to see 14 years here, to have it end in 20 minutes on a low note or a less than grand note just, I'd rather not have it at all. I'd rather not have any of it. I just take so much pride in everything I've ever done here, my Wembley match, my matches with Shawn (Hart starts going over his WWF career here and says that so many guys had their best matches with him)

McMahon: I think there's no doubt. Not only the guys that are here now, but the guys that were here and left, and haven't had a good one since.

Hart: Well, I'm gonna miss this place a lot. I'm already feeling it. It was really, really hard. It was hard in the (Maple Leaf) Garden and it was hard last night. I'd rather not get into a big head-butting thing over this thing. I'd rather look forward to working the next three or four weeks and leaving with my head up and just telling my story with a nice, I don't know what you want to do with me for the next three weeks. If I go in tomorrow, I'd like to say something really nice. I never intended to have any bad comments to make and leave it on that.

McMahon: Okay.

Hart: It feels better. You never know. You might have me back here anyway.

McMahon: I'd love to.

Hart: What would you want to do today then?

McMahon: I don't know, maybe some sort of a, well we always have DX there to interfere. I'm trying to rack my brain thinking about doing something like this whereby it won't end too, you know, if you had Shawn in the sharpshooter for arguments sake and then DX feeds in, you can have Hunter take a bump and that sort of a thing to not make it too flat. Take a swing at Chyna and let her fall down or I don't know if you want to do that or not. I'm trying to think of something. Rick (Rude) could slip on his ass or something.

Hart: Would I have my guys out there?

McMahon: I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't think DX would be out there either until I think it'd be a run-in type thing. But I'm open to anything. I don't think the WWF would allow with the magnitude of this match, the way we've got this whole thing written, the situation where it goes, the marks out there are thinking this is going to be a shoot. I want to capitalize on that. I'm not going to work as a commentator so that I'm back here to make sure this match gets in the ring. It adds that, in the free-for-all (the pre-game show), that's going to be brought out and so forth. Not that Vince is a big deal. I'm just trying to say that all focus is on this match getting in the ring. We'll get a shot of like, we've got some uniformed, they don't look too menacing, but we've got some uniformed security guys that are going to be hanging around once the show begins. So the idea is we're trying to keep you two away from each other in the locker room because we know that's happened before. We're trying to build that tension all the way through. When you have that in mind, I don't think that the WWF would allow DX to go down with Shawn. That would take away from their classic of a match. You have to ultimately have some control of the match.

Hart: Yeah. Alright. Why don't I go find Shawn? We'll start working on the match. I think if they do come down and even though I maybe nail everyone at the end, I think maybe it'll get a pop if I nail Chyna. Especially if she's, it might be the thing to do. It got a pop wherever it was the one time I hit her. But maybe Owen and them could come down after just so they don't look bad.

McMahon: Whatever.

Hart: Even if they get there as they're leaving just so they're there.

McMahon: Whatever you want.

Hart: I'll go find Shawn and come back and then I'll come back.

McMahon: I put Pat with your match (Patterson was the one who suggested the spot where Michaels would get Hart in the sharpshooter and Hart would reverse, which ended up being the spot where the doublecross was pulled). He's the master. Work it through.

Hart: Okay.

-

Curious to me just for the line where Vince said it didn't really matter anymore if Bischoff announced he'd signed Bret, since everybody knew it anyway since it was reported on TV shows and in newspaper in the week beforehand. Does shit on the "urgent need" and "had to do it" mentality, and side towards trying to job Bret for the title in Canada to hurt his value going forward. But even that night, he was scheduled for the next PPV.

The six-man tag situation is referencing a show in Maple Leaf Gardens in the week leading up to the match, where Bret was asked to take a Stunner and be pinned by Austin, and Bret had to switched to Neidhart taking the fall, since he was the only Canadian in the match and thought it was a finish that would hurt the town in future if he was beat.

So he wouldn't even take a fall in a 6 man tag match on his way out "because Canada"? Come on. lol

I stand by my "huge mark for himself" comment.

Yeah, word.

After reading that the screw job sounds more like vince being a vengeful prick. The word was out that Bret was going to WCW, and he wasn't leaving for about a month.

It just seems like Vince wanted to stick it to Bret.

I don't know why we are talking about Bret in this thread, he is obviously terrible at politicking.

Well he did successfully get out of taking the fall for his team in that six man tag at a house show. So there's that.

Bret screwed Neidhart.

Neidhart screwed Neidhart

All Neidhart wanted was to leave the company with his head held high :'(

Neidhart apparently suggested that Owen, Davey and him turn on Bret in Montreal to give those three heat as heels with Bret leaving.

Word is, Neidhart didn't quite have Vince's ear, but him and Kevin Dunn became Chummy, when Dunn became interested in goatee grooming tips... even though he didn't have a goatee. Most of the boys in the back admittedly found the whole thing a little strange. Kevin Dunn doesn't speak of it to this day.

... That would have been pretty fucking perfect.

this is one creepy fuck!

Why would you have the only Canadian in the match lose in Canada?

Jesus Bret its a 6-man

I haven't read this whole thread, but it sounds so interesting.

On Hogan, I've heard some cool stories from Kevin Sullivan recently, where Hogan would actually do things in WCW like have Savage win the belt to fuck with him. He'd give Savage just that little bit of rope. That's pretty masterful. Some of his shit was just dumb though, and in 1995/1996, the WWF shit wasn't flying anymore.

What is the actual story between Austin and Jarrett? I've heard that Austin hated him, but I've got no clue. Is it something to do with Debra?

Goes way back to when Austin was starting his career working for Jeff Jarrett's father and either just Jeff or Jeff and his father didn't treat him well. Felt insulted by the low pay and Jeff making fun of him saying he'd never become a big star.

Years later Jeff would also lash out against Austin's 3:16 gimmick that just added even more fire to Austin's hatred of him.

Interesting. Thanks.