It's entirely possible. I don't know Bret personally, but I know people who do, and my feeling is he's a guy who takes himself way too seriously, and he was passionate about his persona. So if Eric said "were going to have you lead the charge to takeover Canada", he would believe it.

But in trying to determine who was "right" in a situation, I don't think you can argue that one side was dilusional, therefore their actions are correct. You can use that to explain "why" they did what they did, but doesn't make it "right".

To put it another way, it's not like Canada was a fledgling market for WWE before Bret. If anything WCW could have/should have used Hogan if they really wanted to make a dent in Canada. Historically he's the biggest draw in the country. Bret really became a big deal those few months he was doing the pro Canada schtick (which he hated apparently) and after Survivor Series when he was positioned as a victim. But that didn't last long.

All that to say, Vince didn't act perfectly, but I also feel like his back was against the wall because of the limited options Bret was providing the company.

Only talking Canada. Trust me when I say, WCW wasn't even a factor in this market. So I don't see how Bret could have rationally thought his future pay hinged on being an icon in Canada when WCW had no footing in this country and had no plans to change that.

If his status as a Canadian hero (which nobody here ever saw him as) was so vital, you would think from day one of his signing Eric would have announced a multi week tour of the country. The fact that nothing even close to that happened showed a Canadian invasion by WCW was never part of the plans. As was mentioned above, is it possible Eric mocked up a bunch of posters showing WCW bringing Nitro to Winnipeg and Regina? Maybe. But I doubt it. More likely as Eric has intimated in many interviews, he wanted Bret to come in and be the workhorse for Thunder because most of his other top guys didn't want to work that show.

Is it possible Bret was acting on the idea that he needed to be protected in Canada or his next deal would drop to $100k downside? Maybe, but if he did, he's an idiot. Don't think that makes him right.

Hall and Nash were beat like a drum before jumping to WCW and still became the hottest act in the business at the time. It's because they are ultra talented. Had nothing to do with wins and losses in WWE.

Taker would have been a decent backup plan, and it would have been hard for Bret to refuse to JOB to him.

Problem with that is you let Bret leave the territory without putting over his main rival. It leaves a void. Similar to when Hogan left, he didn't put over the next big star (ie Bret) so it really hurt the company trying to establish Bret as the to guy.

And then the other problem is they clearly wanted to get to HBK v Austin, so if you have Taker win the title and drop it quickly to Shawn it hurts Taker and makes Shawn look like a paper champion. Whereas at least with how it all went down it got heat on Shawn and ultimately Vince, which was a catalyst for future success. I don't think Austin v McMahon works as well without Survivor Series.

My take from this thread. If Bret would have just fucking dropped to Shawn, Owen would still be alive.

Also if Bret was so hot about reasonable creative control why in the hell didn't he secure that in his WCW deal, and if he did secure that why couldn't he execute in a way that ..... oh Hogan.

I agree. I think its the greatest work of all time. Nobody came out bad in a situation that should have been bad for everyone. Shawn is the champ, Vince has the best heel character ever, and Bret made over 2 million a year. His WCW time was disappointment for sure, but How mad can you be when you make more than anyone but hogan at that point? It will never come out as long as those three are alive because they still make money on it to this day.

Had Montreal not happen, would we have still gotten the Mr. McMahon character and the eventual Austin v McMahon feud? I wonder how history would have changed?

Vince would have eventually done it. He had done heel work in Memphis before.

But you don't know they didn't have plans to get there. That's exactly the point. If Eric Bischoff had said "We're going to try and take Raw's slot in Canada" (since they were shown on the same channel there, actually), then it would be very important for Bret to protect his status in Canada. Hell, it might have even been important to Bret to protect his status there regardless of what Eric told him, because he was a Canadian hero at that point. It doesn't matter how the US saw him, I don't even see why you would bring that up.

Regardless of whether or not Eric had planned to go to Canada or not (he clearly didn't), the argument is that he should have, and that Bret was a key to getting there, because he was a draw there. He doesn't need to be the biggest draw of all-time to be that. Not wanting to lose in Canada is a fair decision to make, because that's how the business worked back then. We're still years away from Austin refusing to work with Billy Gunn because he had common sense. You're applying hindsight to a situation where none of the players had it.

Actually the whole thing is Vince's fault.

I don't think there is anyone in the history of the business who got away with as much as Shawn did. I don't know if HBK really was McMahon's boytoy on the side, but it's baffling how a control freak like Vince allows Shawn so much sway. Maybe with business in the shitter, he was worried about Shawn jumping ship if he tried to reign him in.

If Vince had put his foot down squashed shawn's bullshit early, and tried to help shawn with his problems and get him to act more professionally, maybe Bret would have been more open to the idea of dropping the title to him.

It's a point I made earlier, but I'll re-iterate:

1) Shawn Michaels wasn't being booked as a dominant heel champion. He was being booked as a cowardly chicken shit heel.

2) The WWE's long term plan was to push Austin to the next level.

Therefore, I don't think it would have mattered that much had Bret vs. Shawn at the 1997 Survivor Series ended in a DQ (i.e. simultaneous Hart Foundation/DX interference). Shawn going strong over Bret would have been nullified a month later anyways where Taker beat the living shit out of Shawn only to lose due to Kane interference.

Bret putting over Shamrock would not have been good for business (i.e. Shamrock was too green and needed to be built up more), and so Bret jobbing to Taker on RAW was clearly the best scenario. From the interviews that I read, Bret didn't have a problem jobbing in Canada. He simply had a problem jobbing to Shawn due to the lack of respect. Bret had enough integrity to "give back" to the WWE and would never have jumped to WCW with the belt.

Shawn going over 'strong' while Taker being a transitional champion wouldn't have ultimately mattered, as the long term plan all along was to make Austin look like a million bucks.

lol you don't need to "know people" who know Bret to know he takes himself too seriously. It takes one out of character interview to put that together.

Consider - in the moment - Vince is losing in the US, Canada he was leading in, and he's losing Bret, the guy that they'd spent months building as a Canadian hero. It's not delusional to think that Bret being brought in for Canada, it was the most obvious benefit for WCW to signing him at the time (which is why I questioned if you were watching at the time, because it was the big talk in the immediate aftermath). Of course WCW fucked it up and never made the play for Canada, it's WCW, but that doesn't mean the intention wasn't there in the beginning. There were plenty of things conceived with logical intentions in WCW that went to shit through disorganisation and politics. It's like saying they didn't start the Sting/Hogan build to make Sting a big deal because look how the match buried him.

All this talk of how Bret didn't give Vince an option, or that Bret would be leaving a void not losing to the right guy is bollocks, because he offered to drop it to Michaels and Austin at different times.

Lol unban CyNick

Lol his reason for getting banned is amazing tho

Why was he banned?

Why was he harassing triple a?

Lol who knows

Wait, how? He fucking fell from the rafters, I don't see a connection.

I would like to see those PMs triple a.

Vince wouldn't have cut Owen's cord which sent him crashing to his death if he didn't feel the need for revenge against Bret for leaving without dropping the belt clean.

I'm guessing the inferrence is that the angle with Jeff Jarret and he splitting time under the Blue Blazer mask wouldn't have happened had Bret waited or somesuch. No angle, no idea for the stunt. No stunt, no fall. No fall, no death.

I don't see the connection either, as it wasn't exactly like Owen was being punished for Bret leaving or something. Wasn't exactly a HHH/Curtain Call thing. That would be a whole different bear if it were.