Yeah that was something he did on his own and in a way proved to the WWE how valuable social media can be for the company. His reward was a very brief US title run and some irrational hatred by Vince. All of WWE's success and focus on social media can be traced back to Ryder and his Youtube show.

Only reason he started the show was as a last ditch effort to save his career in the WWE when he felt he was a lot closer to getting released.

Zack did that himself. There were a few laughs in the early Z! whatever thing he was doing, but nothing substantive. Can you actually identify a good Zack Ryder promo?

Go watch that stuff with Kane again and then come back and tell me the guy can act.

BRAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!

He felt like he was closer to getting released because he fucking sucked.

Let's make a list of great Zack Ryder matches. I'll start:

vs. Christian on ECW that once

More like "The following contest is scheduled for multiple casualties".

Christian is a fucking miracle worker and deserves to go into the Hall of Fame for that effort alone. I'll be honest, it conned me for years into thinking that Zack Ryder could be good.

Without Vince sanctioning it beforehand? :wtf: And again, if he's so terrible at promos and acting, why did they allow his show to continue for so long after licensing the rights to it?

Sounds like the textbook definition of Vince seeing main event potential in someone and stubbornly refusing to even entertain the notion of letting them have a decent run of either mid-card or main event status.

If memory serves, after they moved it to the WWE YouTube account it quickly died.

Haha, yes, that's why there was heat on him for it. Heath Slater and Cesaro currently host YouTube shows for WWE according to their Wikipedia page, so are they automatically good promos too? Your logic is faulty. I can pinpoint examples of shitty Ryder promos and segments, and your defense for him is "but he must be good because he had an internet shit he started himself."

Vince didn't like someone getting over with the smarks on their own accord. It also probably frustrated that the guy they flocked behind fucking sucks and when they tried to push him it fucking sucked because he actually can't do anything and contrary to popular belief a lot of "smart fans" are fucking morons.

Never mind..... lasted 50 episodes on his own YouTube, and then another 50 on the WWE YouTube.......

That you thought it died quickly says enough.

I struggle to think of people in the company who suck worse than Ryder. Titus O'Neil I'll give you.

Still can't believe WWE fed Balor to Kane twice just to build him up for a Braun feud that won't help Braun when a few jobbers or lower level stars would have been a lot more easier.

I think there's more behind it than that. There's something petty and passive aggressive about it.

Wouldn't surprise me if Balor is the first guy out at Survivor Series.

Ascension

But it also wouldn't surprise me if Vince seriously believes that "20 Years of Kane" is the best story they have.

Good call. Viktor is a lot better in the ring than Ryder though. I'll give you a wash with Konnor and the promo work though. Got no clue how Konnor has kept a job to be honest. Dude and his wife walked out on the company years back and now he's been given a cozy job despite never really showing much of anything. I'm impressed as fuck with it, to be honest.

Why is it when Raw is across the pond they mail it in the entire episode?

Konnor started in developmental 12 years ago. What's he been worth? And then he gets to go home to Krissy Vaine. Unbelievable.

In their defense, I don't think that was their intention.

Actually, that's not a good defense at all.

Not really according to the Observer or PWI I think. Just something Vince felt like doing and nobody being in any sort of power to stop him.

Last time someone actually managed to out-power Vince was with the Sasha-Charlotte Cell match. Think Vince didn't want it in the Cell, fought against them doing any big spots, and didn't want it as the main event. Resulted in a lot of backlash within management that he actually relented.

Apollo Crews
Baron Corbin


And let's not forget, he's stuck with a tag team partner 1000000x worse than he will ever be. Plus a former tag partner, both of whom were/are the Jannetty in those pairings.

Dave says that he hasn't heard anything. Vince has his reasons though, surely.

Oddly enough, Vince was right about that Cell.

Hmm..this could be interesting

Best wrestler named Pete.

Dunne or Gas

Crews sucks as a personality, but he's great bell-to-bell. Just boring as bat-shit, but so is Zack Ryder. Baron Corbin does suck, but he's better than Ryder, I think. Mojo is rough around the edges, but at least that means his shit (for bad reasons) gets laid in a lot of the time. Zack looks like he's hugging someone every time he goes for his elbow drop. One day Mojo will surpass Ryder.

Even if I did give you those names, you've gotten to 3. There are like 100 people on the roster. He's still in the bottom 10% and you're saying he deserves a main event run?

Team Bruiserweight

Mean Street Posse can probably work better than half the roster now, to be honest.

Pete Dunne needs a tag partner last name Well

Well Dunne again

Pete Dunne needs no other human company.

I cant tell if he blew out his quad or just jumped in the wrong direction for no reason...

Yeah only because WWE didn't have it as a feud ender and he still managed to get some restrictions placed on the match.

The build to the match took a sharp downturn roughly around the same time those backstage bickering started to happen. Even led to one point of Foley implying online fans can claim any match as their own main event regardless where it is on the card.

I think this has to be the record for the coldest RAW thread ever.

The women also aren't as good as people think.

4. I edited my post to include the "great" Curt Hawkins himself.

I don't feel like he's bottom 10%. Besides, we'll give someone unproven like Mahal the WWE Championship for nearly 6 months now with no build, but it's somehow beneath Vince to even give Ryder the benefit of a chance? OK then.

I said this somewhere before, but I stand by it: If Triple H were given his own autonomous show to run opposite Vince, as sort of a friendly bet, Vince steamrolls Triple H.

No, but they're far from the worst the company has had.

Simply slipped off the top rope with the jumping off leg. Him bracing for the fall probably is the only reason he didn't blow a quad or worse.

Who said that Curt Hawkins was "great?" I'd find a cup of cat piss more interesting. Alright, can you name 10 people that Zack Ryder is better than in the ring? Instead of just saying it, can you back it up?

I'm not pro-Jinder Mahal either, so that point is a total non-sequitur. I think Mahal is proven -- proven to be terrible. I absolutely consider giving him the WWE Title a mistake. So how does that make giving it to Ryder good?

No, but they're not that good.

I see it now. Hard to tell sometimes with a gif.

Doesn't NXT run at a deficit? It's in Vince's good graces that Triple H gets to run that vanity project.

Do you think NXT would run at a deficit if it was on TV every week with advertisers?

Sheamus and Cesaro will drive ford f150s to the ring at WM.

It doesn't automatically make him good, but with a proper build, I could see him being very good indeed.

My point is you can't know how good he'd be as champ without actually having the guts to make that dice roll in the first place. Sure, it could come up snake eyes, or you could roll 7.

So they should have the guts to make everyone champ to see if they'd be good at it?

It depends if they get enough people to watch it to get the advertisers in.

I'm being cynical. I've thought for the longest time that they should try to get NXT on TV so that they can get something out of it. They're already filming it, you might as well try to shop it to either USA, ESPN or Syfy. I also think they should do an NBC show heading into WrestleMania every year though, so what do I know? I do know that NXT performs better than 205 Live which means it probably has a few hundred thousand people watching it, which means it is more over than the Broken Hardy stuff.

No idea, but even if it does, I think it's a clear example of what Triple H could (emphasis there on "could") do for the main roster were Vince not so tightly clinging to control over them. IJS.

No, it doesn't automatically make him good. I can't, because he's awful. That's where we fundamentally disagree on this issue. I think you could have Zack Ryder go out there for 100 weeks straight and do nothing but win and no one would really care because he's not very good.

They have a large sample of the guy's work at this point. He's been under their umbrella for 11 years at this point, and he has only had a handful of good matches at best. He did get super over at one point, but it amounted to nothing tangible because when they tried, in their own WWE way, it failed. The idea that they should put the WWE Title on the guy because they "don't know" yet is a bit silly. They know that the guy isn't up to snuff.

Said it before...... but I liked the women's cell match and thought it was good as the main event........

But that's just my two cents.....

At the time it looked a lot worse since he had only recently came back from a serious knee injury.

Lol hit by an F150

Neither is Mahal, but they didn't let previous knowledge that he was beyond sub-par stop them from slapping it on him just the same.

Considering that the title might as well be made of cardboard right now in terms of worth, maybe it would be better that Zack doesn't win it or even sniff the main event scene for a good long while.

I think Triple H has a great grasp on the fundamentals of professional wrestling. He's a fan and I think he "gets" that part of it. He also gets to do that with NXT. He doesn't have two or three hours to fill, he doesn't have big arenas to fill every week, and he doesn't have ratings to worry about.

I do wonder if Triple H takes over RAW, for example, if anything changes. I wonder if it even gets worse. People just assume it would change to logical booking. Triple H has been involved in some incredibly ego-driven and nonsensical shit that has legitimately hurt the business over his career. As he moves away from the ring, it's surely getting better, but every year we still have to get that Triple H match at WrestleMania that means nothing.

Triple H also overestimates himself and his "kids" when it comes to what a star is. Who has NXT truly produced? You can claim that Vince and Kevin Dunn fuck it up with guys and gals, and that sometimes they don't even try. I will hear that argument. But I will also raise the point that Triple H gets to keep talent off shows in NXT, he gets to pick their spots, gets to avoid overexposing them. He also gets to hide their weaknesses, which becomes harder and harder with the weekly grind and exposure of RAW and SmackDown.

Yeah, putting the WWE Title on Mahal is/was a mistake. So would putting it on Zack Ryder. And?

I had hit a very low point in my fandom then. I had bitten the bullet and watched Clash of Champions the month before and realized just how uninteresting I found everything. Everybody did the same shit and it was just so...boring. Wrestling was boring.

I'm sure Charlotte/Sasha is far from the worst main event in company history. I like both girls actually -- Charlotte is the closest they have to a female star and Sasha and is over. But Triple H got to coddle Sasha and protect her in NXT. When things go awry in a match she's lost, because she's had a very narrow field of training.

I'd say Kevin Owens has been a pretty successful by-product of the NXT machine, and yeah, I get it: That's one guy out of hundreds, but he's been one of the brighter spots on SDL for a while now.

OH NO.

IT'S THE STALE DAY, YES IT IS!!! :'(

Umm nice of New Day to provide a mid-match break for the crowd.

Man’s not hot.

:lol: was that Jordan running awkwardly up the stairs?

You can't seriously just say you know that giving Ryder a chance would be a mistake basing that on his IC and US reigns though, or even just his career to date. We call that jumping to conclusions.

To truly know if it would be a mistake or not, you have to take the chance.

Love Sheamus theme

(say it every week)

In a perfect world, you take those chances with the US/IC title, and if they do well with that, THEN maybe you can take a chance with the World Title.

I wouldn't detest Jinder Mahal quite so much if he were US Champion instead of WWE Champion.

They presented him well in NXT. Did everything Cornette said to do with him. He got his presentation in NXT. But it's not like they taught him to promo or wrestle though.

I'm talking about guys from scratch. Keep in mind that NXT has been NXT for five years now. That's most of Cornette's tenure with OVW. Triple H has been head of developmental for seven years now. Within two years Cornette gave the WWE John Cena, Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar and Batista. Granted, a lot of that was on those talents themselves, and they did get better when they actually got to the WWE.

Triple H has got Bray Wyatt, Braun Strowman, Charlotte Flair and Alexa Bliss. But Lance Storm has admitted to having a hand in helping to train Charlotte as quickly as she got ready. Hey, that's part of it, and Triple H has made sure a lot of resources go into developmental, but they are getting less out with more is my point.

Jinder would have been way better off getting a US title or solid mid-card push first then a WWE title push afterwards but WWE in recent years has the really bad habit of skipping this area when its arguably the most important part to develop a star.

Supposedly Jinder's market value in India tanked a lot after the initial couple of weeks into his reign. Mix of him being a heel and the market favoring faces more, WWE's terrible booking of him, and Jinder's own limitations.

Yes you can. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. They put a belt on Ryder, sent him out there to talk, and it flopped hard. You know that's not going to work again. You also know that Ryder is not that good in the ring and has never matured to the point where there is any reason to change your assessment of him.

You used the Jinder Mahal example to try and shoot down my point that Ryder sucks, which doesn't make any sense, but you actually just made a case for why they should put the belt on him -- because apparently you can't judge someone on their work until they have belt no matter how large or extensive your sample is.

That is a slight chance, the most tiny miniscule chance, that putting the WWE Title on Zack Ryder clicks. People from all over the world tune in to see the guy they invested a moment's interest in seven years ago with the title. Maybe he's a lot more natural and organic as a heel? Maybe he suddenly starts knocking things out of the park and having exclusively good matches. There's a possibility that could happen. But you'd be a fool to predict it, and even bigger fool to bet on it.

Mr. Party Tardy back in effect!

Curtis Axel in a suit, slicked hair, and neckbrace seems one bowtie away from being Joel... (insert elaborate, rhyming sexual innuendo)... Gertner.

"PLAY FREEBIRD!" (there's always that one asshole...)

Would have been funny if Elias said every guitar had a name, and the one on the pole's name was Judy.

I'm not expert on India, but I could have told you that from day dot. It's a logical paradox:

Indian fans are marks: Then they'd be preconditioned to knowing that Jinder sucks.

Indian fans are smarks: Then they know Jinder Mahal sucks.

This is without even going into the geopolitics of just how complicated a place India is. Each province is like its own country. Sikhs make up a very small amount of India's population, and there are some Indians who don't even consider them Indian. And the metrics were always there. The Indian diaspora means that there are so many Indians all over the western world, yet Network subscriptions and live attendance did not go up.

I really don't think this was about India. At all. I mean, sure, it would be great if they could get it, and I'm sure it was thrown around as extra justification for the push, because Vince saying "I like him because he looks a man and you all look like geeks," whilst being more honest, probably wouldn't fly.

If it were about India, they would have pushed him as a babyface. As a true babyface I mean -- none of this "the commentators treat him like a babyface in India." He's a rat-shit coward who cheats all the time and used to lose every match. They also would have had an Indian tour lined up, as opposed to booking one in December, where you can't safely bank on Mahal to still be around, because he's not very good and is liable to hurt himself or someone else in that window of time (and Meltzer insists that he is, in fact, hurt). You also don't book the opposite show to the one he is on.

There are plenty of reasons I think Vince could have possibly decided to put the belt on Mahal:

* He likes that he's jacked and he's subconsciously pissed that he's had to rely on tiny flippy guys for the past few years. He wants Lex Luger; they want Bret Hart. You know the deal.

* He wanted to reward Jinder for turning his life around. Vince is not a heartless bastard, believe it or not. He rewarded AJ with the belt for winning him over for his talent. He gave the belt to Bray as a reward for his character work, and he gave it to Orton for agreeing to let Brock rough him up. Vince has been giving that secondary belt to people as a thank you since the brand split. He did one for ring skills, one for promo and one for look. He might give one to Kurt for a nice moment, or to Kane as a thank you for twenty years with the company, or whatever next. He can do what he likes with it and giving the belt to talent he appreciates is what he wants to do right now.

* He lost a bet after a few scotches. "Hey Vince, I bet you can't flip a car on your own." "Yeah?! Wanna bet? I'm Vince McMahon, dammit!" "Okay. Um. Whose the worst guy on your roster? You have to make him champion for 100 days if you can't do it." "Screw you, pal. I'll get him to 200."

* To pop the boys. Mahal seems quite popular. It's also an interesting thing for morale if people think their careers can turn around like that. Keeps them on their toes.

* A writer trying to get their own shit in worked out that Triple H likes Jinder, Vince likes Jinder, Jinder is jacked, he's got a foreign background, and suggested a push to try to pop the room or just get something in so he didn't look completely fucking useless for suggesting Luke Harper for the 1,000th time. It passed through several safety checks where someone would normally nix it, because Jinder is popular with the agents, Triple H likes him, Vince likes him, etc., and it suddenly became about the belt.

All or none of that could be true. I just don't buy this idea that Vince McMahon, Triple H, Stephanie McMahon, that new Indian executive they hired and everyone in the fucking company sincerely believed that if they put the SmackDown Title on Jinder Mahal, India would open up to them. They did this exact same thing with Khali in 2007 and it didn't work then. It would be insanity to expect different results doing the same thing with someone who is less of a star. If it happened, which it was never going to, then it would have been nice for everybody. But I don't think they were seriously sitting around a table discussing that it would change the direction of the business forever and add 100 million subscribers to the Network.

It wouldn't surprise me if the WWE try to get an Indian television show going though, get Khali to run it, and send Jinder over there with his "WWE Title cred" to try and help it out so they can get more TV money.

It would be preferable, but it could still damage those belts. Definitely preferable though.

Best use for the guy is part of 3MB, I'm telling you.

Sadly, they seemed to have wanted him to be this singles phenom all along, but have had an ass-backwards approach to it. He's in NXT with no gimmick and not over. He gets paired with Tye Dillinger. They get kinda over... so they split up. He's on another short singles run and not over. He eventually gets paired with Chad Gable. They get kinda more over. They get called up together, and then go relatively unused in a threadbare tag scene. Then they get split in an unceremonious show trade, and Jason Jordan is once again a singles guy, but they give him a kayfabe dad- weird because of the whole tirade Vince went on about kayfabe family members to the point where even the lore of Undertaker/Kane was sometime-y.

He's great in the ring... but he's lacking elsewhere. He's just supposed to be over because (say it with me now) "he looks the shit". Even that whole "he's good in spite of his lack of experience, but his temper gets him in trouble" thing they teased seemed to go away. He's currently yet another two dimensional person on the roster.

When you have American Alpha, The Revival and Gargano/Ciampa as tag teams, there's not really any excuse to not having them on the same show and tearing it down every week. Given that Raw is the longer show, they arguably should have been on there and doing that every week. It's a damn shame.

Jason Jordan was a dead issue from the moment they introduced him as Kurt's son. They have to know this. They were anticipating the boos before they even started happening. It really wouldn't surprise me if a heel turn is coming.

That whole thing (I didn't recopy it all) makes sense in a real-life logical standpoint, but you have to remember we're talking about WWE. This is the same company that I gave the benefit of the doubt to when trying to force-feed Batista's return as some sort of cross-promotional power play for Guardians of the Galaxy, a bump for mainstream pop culture appeal, and a nostalgia pop all rolled into one... and really, it was just to try to position him almost in a role similar to where Brock Lesnar is now, just with way more availability dates and a seemingly cynical "fuck all those small guys like Daniel Bryan, THIS is what you're supposed to see!" move. It really almost just seemed like it was done out of spite, and they thought Guardians was going to fucking flop and the perfect storm that could have been gained was purely coincidental.

Like you said, they tried it with Khali. In 2007. This is 2017. It is well beyond that "seven year window" with angles and such, and they likely believe this is also how business works as well. Try the same shit again a decade later with a different brown guy to artificially and clumsily create a marketplace god; a figurehead to exploit in some region of the world while trying to churn out carbon copies of the very unique career trajectory of The Rock (jump to megastardom and beyond, only all while under contract, so that the Hollywood dollars come rolling in while they pimp him out instead of doing it on their own as a next step in life). Hell, I'm even reminded of the story about Sid: Vince wanted to "give him [Hogan's] boots", and Sid refused because he insisted he worked better as a monster heel. Truthfully, he did, and though it would be interesting to speculate how very different the business would have been if Sid just rolled with that, the point is, Vince just tried to duplicate what he had previously instead of building elsewhere. Try the same shit with the same result in perpituity. He only eventually did something else out of neccessity.

They tried the same shit with Alberto Del Rio for Mexico. They are purportedly looking for the same thing for some dude from South America. Meanwhile, the thing they are looking for can come and slap them in the face in the form of a very ethnic international superstar, however, if he isn't a 6'10" mountain of mostly cosmetic muscle or a pale imitation of Andre, fuck them.

Well, that's what the Batista return was meant to do. It was supposed to be work, it just didn't. But yeah, Triple H is a dork for not thinking Guardians of the Galaxy would work. He should have said that about Blade Runner instead.

They also did it with Khali out of necessity. People forget how bleak that roster was at the time. I just think they would have pushed him better if that were the true intent. I think this is just one of Vince's whims, to be honest. I'm sure they do want people from all over the globe to be represented, but I doubt they're all getting the belt right out the gate either. Mahal might have a job because he's Indian, but I think he got the belt for other reasons.

That seems to be the primary point of contention: the fact that it was literally a jump from jobber to the top champion of Smackdown inside a couple of weeks. It could have been some slight argument if he was pushed since his return to the company (Like Drew in NXT), but instead, it would be like if, somehow between now and Survivor Series, Curt Hawkins beats Brock Lesnar, and then WWE legit tries to bill him as a believable, credible champion.

Also, the roster being bleak is, and continues to be, their own fucking fault. They don't build new stars. The stumble upon one that works, and then try to milk that one in perpituity. We can go back to Cena/Orton: their rise was because of one of those times where the roster took a hit, and the company needed new stars. Vince even admitted not seeing Cena as anything at first, which seems silly in and of itself in hindsight. Had there not been injuries and retirements and walkouts etc., etc., their golden goose would have more than likely been constantly on SuperStars duty and let go before JTG was instead of at least letting him and other talent rise to around credible midcard level... then step the next man up if they need to for whatever reason.

Instead, they seem to want to make instant big deals out of an image that isn't ready, and people they let hang around, they don't bother to build most of the time. The folks who are getting builds are usually doing so by total accident anymore. Case in point: New Day. They formed as what was hinted at to be a group of badass heels and marking a heel turn for the perpetually babyface Kofi, but then suddenly they're a group of really, really forced faces. And when that clearly didn't work, they started being disingenious faces, making them heels. Then, they got so good with that, they turned face again ironically. And along the way, they added unicorns and cerial and trombones and it is just this whole thing now. And it wasn't overnight. And they had to do a lot of that themselves, because I would be willing to bet they were on the chopping block at some point because a whole team of writers and bookers couldn't come up with something for them.

In that same amount of time where Xavier cut that promo about Big E. and Kofi needing to stop dancing and catering to fans to now, they have become a pretty decent, cohesive act. In that same amount of time, there are very few others who have progressed in any discernable way. They are either exactly the same person with no character, image, or perception progression, or they aren't even around anymore. Maybe Bray Wyatt, since he stopped dressing like Waylon Mercy and started cosplaying as Rob Zombie... but even that... eh. Cryptic promos and jobbing.

There could have been greater care taken with Jinder to make that pill way easier to swallow.

Finn Balor flying off the ramp onto Samoa Joe was pretty choice

When I went to SmackDown in Glasgow last year, I invited my best friend who isn't really a wrestling fan now but was back during "The Attitude Era" and when he saw Jason Jordan, he thought he was a really tanned white guy.

I had to tell him that it wasn't a tan and that Jason Jordan was black.

I've always had a strong suspicion/feeling that Finn Bálor is gay.

If he actually is dating her, then he's got to be at least Bi.

If I was there, I would have booed too.

Good/Bad News about this week's ratings. Only real bad news was no hour broke 3+ million and RAW got beat by the usual shows.

The good news being the drop for the week being tiny considering it was a taped episode and they finally broke the hilarious streak of the 3rd hour constantly going down since Enzo was in the main event or final spot for the show.

I dunno, that's almost 400,000 people tuning out of Raw for that third hour. Enzo's the only guy that can hold attention. Doesn't that say something?

It might be the primary point of contention, but it's not the only point of contention. Sure, the throwing away of their own established lore that Jinder sucks in their very own storylines is frustrating, but past that you also have Jinder sucking. He is really bad. He cannot wrestle well. His promos are bland as fuck. He tries his heart out, and I'm sure he's just a blessing to have in the locker-room, but when you say "Hey Jinder, go out there and entertain people for 10 minutes," he can't do it on either the mic or between the ropes.

He's not even a good mid-carder. He was turgid before he got the giant push, it's just that he wasn't relevant that it was a talking point. But the idea that he almost won the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal sucked. That he got to beat up Rusev when they split sucked. When he was in 3MB he was the suckiest member.

It would be contentious to me whether or not he should be on your roster or not at all. It's good to have representation and be able to trot bodies out there, but he's not really capable. I wouldn't be thrilled by a Jinder Mahal US Title run, or a Jinder Mahal IC Title run. They wouldn't kill my entire interest in the product like his WWE Title run did, but I'm not getting pumped for it and I'm just waiting for him to lose that belt too.