Exactly. Its building off this new universe where the force isnt for the elite chosen the force is for everyone.

Also that is exactly what the tree burning symbolized. All of the jedi code is gone now.

Symbolism


sym·bol·ism
ˈsimbəˌlizəm/<input width="14" height="14" type="image" src="data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAA4AAAAOCAQAAAC1QeVaAAAAi0lEQVQokWNgQAYyQFzGsIJBnwED8DNcBpK+DM8Yf jMUokqxMRxg+A9m8TJsBLLSEFKMDCuBAv/hCncxfGWQhUn2gaVAktkMXkBSHmh0OwNU8D9csoHhO4MikN7BcAGb5H+GYiDdCTQYq2QubkkkY/E6CLtXdiJ7BTMQMnAHXxFm6IICvhwY8AYQLgCw2U9d90B8BAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg=="><audio src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/dictionary/static/sounds/20160317/symbolism--_us_1.mp3" preload="auto" data-dobid="aud"></audio>
noun
noun: symbolism

1. the use of symbols to represent ideas or qualities.
   
   
   
   
   

The idea that the Jedi order is shit has been gaining steam for a long while now the emphasis has shifted toward balance rather than pure light or pure dark

I'm thinking Jedi Order is pretty much dead and the new class are going to be more or less grey

Which reflects societies shift on morality in the past 40 years

Also see: Darth Treya I love her whole outlook

I dont necessarily think that is the case. Luke ends the movie by saying he wont be the last jedi. I think his intent (assuming he reappears as a force ghost) is to rebuild the Jedi order rather than say the Jedi Order is dead.

Taking Rebels into account, it seems Disney overall wants to reboot/reevaluate the Jedi/Sith conflict.

But Grey Jedi are a thing(at least in legends continuity)

They might still be a thing if Ashoka is any indication

Small observation may not mean anything Luke was wearing light and dark robes when he was facing First Order

Itll rebuild but the old ways are gone. The religion aspects wont exist going forward. Id stake anything on it. The blue v red aspects will be less prevelant going forward

This was definitely not the movie I was expecting.

What's your take on it?

I don't want the public opinion to sway my enjoyment of the movie. It's a very good movie, not perfect and above any of the Star Wars movies 4-7 is probably the most faulted as a film. However I really enjoyed the ride and feel that it may be appreciated more after the next one is released.


I will say that I'm tired of this war, something needs to change. I really felt a strong heel turn from Rey teaming with Kylo in a shades of grey heel vs shades of grey baby face Luke and Luke ending the film as hero again. That would have been Star Wars fresh but they kept in the cannon and did what they did.

I though Lea's use of the force was awesome, she's a fucking Skywalker and she was never trained that we saw so her use of the force is instinctual and not the same as any of the male Jedi we have seen.

Jedi did a good job with tearing everything down and raises more questions than answers. I understand the complaints about the casino but aside from the chase it worked for me. Sometimes a bad person is just a bad person and we got used to seeing bad people with hearts of gold..

DJ's not bad though. He did save Finn and Rose when he had no reason to. I think the idea is he's the Han Solo archetype played straight. But push come to shove he's probably redeemable in the future, if the price is right. Then again it's best he doesn't run into Finn and Rose again.

I think they started clean everyone who needed to die in the old Star Wars universe is dead.

No...there is another

You sah are mistaken. Jar Jar binks lives forevah sah.

I expected some answers to the basic questions that 'The Force Awakens' sparked. Instead we got bullshits and swerves.

Who is Supreme Leader Snoke? Never mind, we prematurely killed him off... just like we did with Darth Maul because that worked out great. SWERVE

I also disliked nearly everything they did to Luke Skywalker's character and what/where he been. BULLSHITS & SWERVES (They did answer some questions here but I thought they just sucked. Whoever wrote this shit should be fired).

Rey's parents sold her for booze? BULLSHITS
Where did Rey learn all her Jedi shit from without any training? CUZ POWER

Finn might as well have not been in the movie. BULLSHITS

Leia has some Jedi powers but only uses them to save herself. BULLSHITS

Han Solo's death seems like a forgotten afterthought they barely touched upon or did anything to make it stand out for the characters it would matter to.

HOPEFULLY this movie is simply a filler movie until we get to the third movie and they actually answer some of those questions without the bullshits and swerves but I doubt it because now there are too many questions to answer in just one movie without everything feeling terribly rushed, haphazardly thrown together and for them to still progress the current mess of a storyline, action and plot.

This movie should have answered some of these questions and then those answers lead us into the next movie. Instead we just got more questions, bullshit answers and if this was any franchise besides Star Wars... I don't think people would have any reason to give a fuck about the next movie.

We got Porgs though, Yay! It gives Chewbacca something to do.

But its Star Wars... people will buy it no matter what. It will make a billion dollars so just make it and take the money.

So how did Han Solo die?

Haven't seen the movie yet, only read the synopsis.

Can someone please explain to me what the fuck "exhausted Luke vanishes into the Force" means?

Total swerve when they killed off the Emporer in Return of the Jedi. They should’ve answered all the questions about him.

Luke force Projects himself onto another planet. They set this up earlier in the film that doing this that far across the galaxy you would have to be very powerful to do it and it would most likely kill you.

These movies are centered around the Force. The Force has been pretty dormant overall since Revenge of the Sith. It is now awakening across the universe. This is a major point to both films. Ren is extremely powerful but on the dark side. Darkness rises and light to meet it. Where you have Ren you must have a Rey.

He got shot in a drive by

So does he die?

Essentially yes. He vanished like Obi Wan and Yoda do when they die. All signs point to Luke now being dead (but he goes out as a major heroic symbol for the resistance)

Technically they can have out if they want to since his metal hand should’ve stayed behind but didn’t.

This ending and the scenes on the casino planet were my only gripes with the movie. I wanted more from Luke. I expect he’ll be a force Ghost in 9 but wouldve likes to have seen more.

While I agree with this statement, the scenarios are not really the same.
By the time Ep. 7 came out, we had already established a much larger cinematic universe that encompassed 6 movies instead of just 3.
With the exception of the clues given to us in some of the visual guide books or newer novels, extremely little is known about how the Empire survived and managed to become the Fist Order...that is where Snoke came in.
We're told that he is ancient and very powerful, it is given the impression that he has been pulling strings for a long time. He might at some point have even communicated with Palpatine in some capacity and Snoke appears to be responsible for the survival of the Empire remnants..which became the Fist Order.

Supposedly, he led them through the uncharted space where he allowed them to re-group. All of this seems pretty significant to me, specially the ancient evil part. How long has this guy been around? has he been plotting shit all along in the common universe? maybe we will find out.

I don't think the movie is bad but it suffers from some "bad movie" elements. I am not a fan of wasted characters, in the same way that I didn't like Hicks and Newt getting killed off like they're nothing in Aliens 3.

The scenerios are identical. Its you that changed.

I’ll also point out that I can’t stand that everything in today’s culture needs an explanation so that stuff doesn’t really bother me much. Great if they do it but not something I think needs to be applied to all situations.

I don't get why Snoke getting killed off is such a gripe. Sure he's somewhat interesting, but Ren's internal conflict, Rey being a nobody symbolizing the force is for everyone, and their obvious bond but conflict is far more interesting than an scarred bad guy who was pulling the strings.

We knew absolutely jack shit about the Emperor in three original trilogy. Other than he had lighting hands and was calling the shots.

Ren is far more interesting and for me, the best new character they've introduced. He's not a typical bad guy. They've been pushing his inner struggle since the first film. It's my fave running storyline.

Im really into reys symbolism

The scenario being the same has nothing to do with why it's a problem for people. Yes, it's the same.

But the Emperor's presence didn't create a bunch of questions from viewers, because you had literally no knowledge whatsoever, of what took place before the movies. It was a blank slate, and you can get away with mysterious, all powerful characters, without explaining anything.

But now, there is a history, and that history creates questions about snoke's existence become harder for people to ignore.

I honestly don't think there is any point in debating this anymore though. The difference between people who are bothered by this, and the people who aren't comes down to how we watch these movies and how invested we are in the overall lore, and how that is presented in the films. Some people are going to care, some aren't.

Justshows how young you are

"Emporer didnt create a bunch of questions"

Sure kid

I remember wondering about his origins, but I din't feel like I needed the answers because there was literally nothing before those movies.

In this situation, if you take a look at the star wars story as a whole, there is a part in the middle that is completely missing. It would be like watching a New Hope, and then skipping to Jedi. That's what it feels like to me, seeing all this go down with no explanation of snoke and how he built the first order. I didn't need my questions on the emperor answered.

The Emperor's presence didn't create a lot of questions, that is a valid statement. The movie isn't a fucking nuclear bomb but for us that expect a bit more from the lore it is rather disappointing.

I think Fignuts hits it perfectly, for some people throwing characters away is not a problem and for others..it is.

I work as a media analyst for a TV marketing firm so I see plenty o f storytelling...and I have been a fan of the saga for quite some time and have the credentials to show it considering that I was interviewed for the local paper to showcase my collection. I care about the lore..be it Snoke, Darth Maul, etc.. and in that..I am not a fan of characters being thrown away and perhaps the most..disappointing thing that has come out of this movie is the "us" vs. "them" mentality that has grown out of the fan community. For some folks, if you didn't like it you are an unbearable fan boy and if you did..you are a genius.

The movie is a not trainwreck but is no masterpiece either. There are a lot of cool moments. As Anthony Daniels pointed out before the TFA..its kind of hard to capture the magic of something so strongly the second time.

Never mind the fact that they took what could have been a great villain with interesting motivations and a backstory that ties to previous films and characters, and who strengthens the star wars story as a whole, but instead we get a throwaway character who is incredibly adept at the force BECAUSE REASONS, and in the end, is about as necessary as Admiral Holdo.

Holdo was the worst

With that said both of you are toonyoung to have a calid opinion how how people reacted to the emporer. Figgy was 1 years old and Luigi wasnt sperm. Its literally the same. Its themsame conversations 30 years later

I have lived this twice now

Except now i get to listen to an infant and someone who was prehuman tell me it didnt happen, which is an added bonus

Like, ok people asked questions about the emperor when the films came out. I fail to see how that helps your argument that snoke isn't horribly wasted potential.

You remember wondering when you were 1. In other words you remember nothing because it never happened.

Snoke enhanced the story between the characters he was meant to and the star wars tradition of mysterious villians lives on. You guys who are new to the party seem offended by this.

Destor, do you not know what a VHS tape is?

Also comparing characters like Boba Fett, Maul, and Greivous to Snoke is ridiculous.

In previous films, those characters were just henchmen to the big bad. Their origins were mysterious, but what you did know about them made sense.

Snoke IS the big bad, and everything about him flies in the face of the saga's history. Which is fine as long as you FUCKING EXPLAIN IT

He's clearly not the big bad. And as a kid born in the 80s, watching Star Wars as a 10 year old, I never questioned origins about the Emperor because I was too young to care.

Even now watching it, however, it's pretty clear that he's nothing more than a plot device tugging on Vader, pulling him to the dark side to combat Luke trying to pull him back to the light.

The heart of the trilogy was Luke and his father's conflict. The emperor was a tool to help that story. Just like Snoke is a tool to help the story between Ren and Rey.

If you think snoke is the big bad you dont get it.

Comprehensive list of star wars villains withback stories given in films:

Darth Vader and Emproer Palpatine.

Vader got his in 5 and 6 and expanded on in 1-3. Palpatine in 1-3.

In other words most back story in the franchise comes 30 years after the characters die.

Maybe in 2050 youll get this snoke story you want so bad

And the only thing vader got in 5 and 6 was his last name. That was it.

IF YOU WANT BACKSTORY READ SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIALS. Thats how its been since 1977.

I mean, he's the big bad in the sense that he's the one pulling the strings. Obviously Kylo is the main villain of the trilogy.

If this new generation of Star Wars and its fanbase are just cool with not caring about huge details like Snoke and the First Order's rise than that's further proof that perhaps this franchise just ain't for me anymore.

There's a pretentious vibe around the main series so far with fans giving stunts passes (Rey's OP? So what! Snoke? Just a plot device, you're just a baby when Sedious debuted!), there's not gonna be sensible improvement. Especially as said that you're painted as 'not getting something' when you criticize such glaring mishaps (a trait previously inclusive to DCEU diehards).

I'll watch Eps9 and Solo and whatever else, but the brand is slipping off of my top tier list of things I dig. It's just not my jam anymore. I'll just stare at the twin sunset.

Again, this comes down to how people view these movies and star wars as a whole.

When I saw the original trilogy for the first time, sure I was curious about Vader and Palpatines backstory. But I didn't feel like I needed that information because those movies were all there was.

But now you've got 6 movies that have established a history, and the rules that said history plays by. So when I watch the new movies the questions I have have DO need to be answered, because otherwise the overall Star Wars story doesn't make sense. And that's why this is such a divisive topic. Because you have people who only care about judging the movie on it's own merits and how it evolves it's characters, and then you have people like me who see it as a small part of a whole, and have a problem if something doesn't fit in that bigger picture, even if it effectively strengthens other characters in the movie.

And you can try and argue that's on me, but frankly that's bullshit. The people that write this know that it's a part of a larger picture, and ignoring that and creating a plot device that contradicts that larger picture just because you're too lazy to think of anything else, is bad writing.

...new generation says the child who didmt live it until vhs and who now who wants them to not be authentic to themselves. The films havent changed, you have. Maybe you dont like the formula, thats fine, just dont act like its the films fault. Theyre just doing what they have for decades.

If youve out grown star wars thats fair but theyre super consistent films

There's very little detail given about the Empire's rise in the original film from what I recall. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't remember too much more than a general summary as to why they were there. The Emperor isn't seen until the second, and isn't a major player till the 3rd.

Even then, he's not the main villain. Vader is. Whether people like it or not, the Emperor was a tool to develop Vader as a character and give him a moment of redemption.

That's all Snoke is. A tool to further the plot and give the real main characters, Ren, who's clearly the big bad, and Rey something to do. Not to mention, trilogy isn't over yet. We don't know what they plan on doing in the next film. Snoke could very well be explained, even if briefly, in the next one.

Hinting at Ren's fall to the dark side has been a running storyline that's now played out but has not been completed in the last 2 films. But he's clearly the big deal here. Much like Vader was. Not the guy sitting in the chair barking orders at them.

You're right. Star Wars has always been poorly written. Should of expected it would be shit.

Little dramatic there.

Thats fair. Like most childrens films the writing is suspect

To each his own. Killing Snoke reshuffled the deck for episode 9. Killing him was the next step for Ren. He killed Snoke. He killed Han. He is unshackled.

If you want to complain about wasted characters I’ll give you Phasma.

Rey’s parents being nobodies is an answer. It may not be the answer you thought but it’s an acceptable answer that works with Rey’s character and the setup of this film.

Phasma is def the fett of this cycle. Character you want to be cool but isnt.

That's absurd. Not being old enough (to what btw? Gauge public review of the first trilogy to contrast the new ones? What?) didn't mean I wasn't able to understand initial criticisms of the prequel trilogy. Anymore than it makes me unable to review Prometheus in the context of the Alien saga because 'I didn't exist when Alien launched'. That is a piss poor dodge to excuse whatever issues I have when a long enough franchise starts skirting its own ruleset.

Nor is it even the save you want it to be; by today's story telling telling standards Rey would still be poorly written in TFA, Snoke would still be panned as a wasted villain (something no franchise even the MCU can get away with), and the retooling of how the Force works becomes nonsensical. Taken in a vacuum, it still doesn't work. So miss me with the 'you were too young to get it, but you're also now too old for it' line. Please. That alone is inconsistent.

You like it or accept it. Cool. Whatever. But don't go pretending we (Kalyx and Fignuts!) don't understand something about Star Wars. You are much better off saying you like it and don't care about things we're pointing out.

The retooling of the Force is by far the best thing they’ve done.

On NUMEROUS occasions it has been claimed in this thread that somehow this is different than palpatine. And it absolutely isnt. The only thing that has changed is you. The aging viewer. Who clearly has no concept now as to who the demo is. Yiu are older, grumpier to boot, and think this film needs to gear itself toward a more die hard audience.

It doesnt. Infact it would probably kill the franchise. The films have never been for hardcore staf wars nerds, a fact the star wars nerds have never been able to get a good grip on.

If you dont nerd rage for palpatine you cant for snoke. The standards,despite your best claims, havent changed. I know this because ever kid in the theater fucking loved the film.

If the franchise isnt for you anymore than just admit it. But dont ask it to change to suit your ever changing needs.

The variable is the viewer not the writing

Obviously too young to have lived thru it, but where there complaints are the swerves the 2nd and 3rd film threw at the audience at time of release?

Like, were people upset at the "
..I am your father" like coming out of nowhere and rendering the "he murdered your father" line in the first film useless?

Were people upset that the Emperor was tossed to his death with little backstory? Legit curious.

@ wwe

Except it makes what Darth Plagus did impossible. And the Skywalkers, who were supposed to be the connective tissue of the series due to their affinity to the Force (itself potentially because of what Plagus did), is now like... just people the Force choose to be that strong?

I have no issue with this 'avatars of the light and dark' neo/smith thing got going with Kylo and Rey. I'd even accept Rey getting so strong BECAUSE Luke cut himself off for years, forcing the Force to choose a new avatar for the light. It would even explain her being OP and add more credit to Rey actually sympathizing with Kylo during their magic snapchats.

But I guarantee I've just put more thought into it then they did just now.

Jedis have been around for thousands of years. There were many Jedi heroes long before the Skywalkers.

There were sith long before the Empire. I don’t get your point.

I'm not a hardcore Star Wars fan. I loved the last 2 films. And TLJ is prob my second fave, right behind Empire.

Was Dark Plagus mentioned before the prequels? That'd be pretty cool idea to expand on in their spinoff series

Asking them to make sense of Snoke is not a die hard fan notion. My issues with their vehicle design and lightsaber choreography is nerd shit. Here I'm just saying using Snoke as a miniboss with no kind of context is lame. Even if this was a new franchise. He was clearly played on his mystery last time. He'd never be presented that way if they knew he was gonna get put down without so much as a motivation speech.

Vader being Luke's father is a historic twist that paid off Obi-Wan's comments the movie before. Was it a stunt? Most likely, from a certain point of view. But even this example made use of some established history, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

I'm gonna throw this out and guess nobody cared enough about Sidious' origins. It was the 80s. He's a badguy. He has to go. lol EVEN THEN, he was positioned as ultimate evil and master to Vader as Yoda was mentor to Luke. That was all we needed. To say Snoke can pull off the same lack of background after decades of world building is crazy.

Yep. Episode 3, Palpatine explained to Anakin his backstory in the form of a parable. He revealed that his master found a way to create life which is heavily implied to explain the eventual virgin birth of... Anakin. Which then explains why the Skywalkers were freaks of nature, which works whether by midichlorians or affinity to a mystic force. It's consistent either way.

Not anymore.

Most people were losing their minds over how cool it was and just enjoying the movie. But there were fignuts then bitching about the cannon error, yeah. Had a friend who didn't see 6 until we told them the retcon with obi won in 6. And lets be clear....that was total retcon. Vader was not a skywalker when lucas wrote 4.

This fan theory for the record.

I have explained this like 10 times in this thread.

Oh you said before. Oops.

But all but obvious.

How people reacted to the original trilogy is completely irrelevant.

No yiuve said things that are flat out false because youre too young to actual,y fucking know and are just talking out of your ass. Youre literally lying when you say no one cared.

No it isnt. Its everything. It clearly demonstrates that youve changed not the franchise.

Nobody cared. Not even the mountains of EU material approached it, and I was alive to see nobody asking for his origin story THEN.

It has and it hasn't.

You're correct in your previous statement that it's practices and tropes have "stayed authentic to itself."

It has changed in that there is now more history in the story, that makes staying authentic harder to do, while telling a coherent story.

The more you add to the history, and the lore, the more plot holes bad writing decisions are going to evolve if you ignore the history just remain true to the tropes that have been a part of the series. And the thing is, it doesn't even need those tropes. They aren't necessary to make star wars unique and special.

Why even do a sequel if we weren't in some fashion an essential part of the demo anyway? Just reboot it.

Also, people's reactions to palpatine isn't relevant, because this arguement isn't about that.

It's about comparing a mysterious powerful figure introduced in a trilogy with no preceding history vs a mysterious powerful figure introduced in a trilogy with a TON of preceding history.

That's it. Doesn't matter fuck all how people reacted, because it can't change bad writing.

A lot of tissues are needed in here. Jesus Christ.

Shut up, meg.

I don't think Smoke is dead. Rem isn't intimidating enough to be the main bad guy at all. Believe in Snoke.

I would hold out hope but that gag scene with hux kind of makes me think no.

This post makes no sense. As a stated earlier there have been a thousand generations of Jedi and Sith. The sky walkers weren’t the first powerful beings.

We still have another 2.5 hours of story to go. Ren is the clear villain. They have had two films now to reveal his backstory of succumbing to the dark side, because while we know he worships his grandfather, and we can see he's conflicted, the part where he committed to Snoke is still missing. No reason to think it won't be touched on in the finale of this trilogy.

With all the comic books and novels coming out as well, it is a sure thing that we won't have to wait as long to find out the origin story of Snoke as we did the emperor

Send me your address. I will get tissues sent to you on tuesday.

Give me yours, so I can send you some drizzling shits. Figure it's right up your alley since you loved this movie so much.

its gotta be kane86

This line probably sums up the new movie best.

Destor,

I think your argument of 'you were not alive' to see the old movies on Day 1 of 1977 is invalid.

By that standard of thought anyone younger than you should have a stronger opinion because it is the younger audience the movies are geared towards (in your words) and we're younger and closer to that age than you so perhaps our opinion shoulder carry more weight?

Pretty silly argument, either way.

Some people liked it and some people didn’t. Thank you for continuing to establish that.