He still didn't put Batista over. Batista could be one of the biggest stars in WWE...oh wait

I never said that he got buried I agreed with a quote by Xero which had more than just the "he got buried" part which was the part I was agreeing with.

I'm with LC on this is part of the problem

The business 101 is that established guys put over the yuong stars to help them gain credibilty, we don't see much of it here, sadly

Storyline-wise you can say HHH is supposed to win to avenge what happened with his family. But in the early part of the storyline, they said Orton needed to avenge what happened in 2004, and the broken collarbone from last year. Wrestlemania is supposed to be the place where the person chasing the title finally wins it, but that did not happen now.

And now name me what other heel won in the main even of Wrestlemania...

Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007

The Xero quote:

Although like you said, if he doesn't go over in the near future, you'll join us in our "furiousity"

See you in 2 or 3 months? lol

I think all you kliq guys are missing the point entirely. People aren't hating on the finish just because Triple H won. You said yourself, this isn't 2003 anymore. People don't like it, because Triple H winning, really doesn't accomplish anything. Orton has been a great heel the past year, but he still doesn't seem like a threat on the same level as HHH, Cena, HBK, and the other top guys. Beating HHH at mania would have changed that.

And yeah, the feud will continue, and he will probably beat HHH for the title, but it won't have the same effect. As WWKD said, mania makes stars. It pushes people to a new level, in a way that other ppv's can't.

If you can't see that....if you can't see that people are dissapointed with the backwards thinking booking of the finish, and not triple h himself, then you need to get your head out of his ass.

Austin went in face, to be fair


Cena can't even be judged in those terms, Vince books him as a face. Most of us fans however treat him otherwise

Austin was the face going in to that match.

John Cena was supposed to be the face at least in those matches.

I agree with that.

I have stated that Orton winning would have been a good thing (hell I was shocked he didn't), but points have been brought up that this is the end of Randy Orton and somehow it is always Triple H who screws him out of a big win and now he has been robbed of the career making "WrestleMania moment" win despite him beating Cena and HHH just last year clean.

I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.

Exactly.

yeah has everyone forgotten WM 24?

EXACTLY!

It isn't Vince's fault Randy Orton can't take advantage of all the oppurtunities to be "the man" he has been given.

Winning a triple threat match, and beating triple h one-on-one, especially the way the triple h/orton fued has been booked, are two very different things.

Look at all the guys who won the title at mania in a triple threat match. Mysterio, Benoit. wow, they sure stayed in main event for a long time, didn't they? I think they both were fighting for the us title 6 months after they won at mania.


So no juan. Not EXACTLY.

I will agree to a point. But that was not the main event, and triple threats are booked to which anyone can get a pinfall. This was a bigger match situation, and Orton didnt get it done.

But even last year, Orton was not getting as big of a rub as he was this year. As champion, he cheated or barely made it through his matches. Jeff was really the only one he beat clean.

Now this year, Orton has much more momentum. He wins the Royal Rumble, he takes out the McMahon family, hes never looked stronger. Just something like this seems to kill his credibilty. Not to mention his past with HHH proves that he cant beat HHH.

He's been outstanding the past year. And to my knowledge he hasn't shit in anyone's personal belongings lately. So what exactly is the justification for that comment?

Yeah but it's been a year since the triple threat match, and Randy Orton is STILL one of the top heels in the company, and to my knowledge hasn't competed for anything but the WWE title since.

Randy Orton isn't good enough to be "the man" in WWE.

He's been pushed into the role of top heel before, yes. But it always seemed kind of forced, and he never seemed quite on the same level as the guys he was up against. At least not to me, and it seems many other posters here. The past 6 months or so have been the first time that orton has been booked in such a way that he seemed like he could beat anyone. Unstoppable.

And yeah, I agree that the comments about orton being completely finished are exaggerating, but this did kill his momentum, and it will take a while for him to believeably get it back again. He can't just come out and beat HHH next week, cause it will feel forced, just like most of his time in the main event.

He was the whole reason for Evolution, and then was cemented by Mick Foley. Randy Orton then became the youngest World Champion by beating Chris Benoit at the 2nd largest show of the year, but maybe instead of Triple H beating him just to be Evil Paul, Vince McMahon realized that Randy Orton wasn't ready in the ring or on the microphone to be "the man". Randy Orton was then given a huge program with Undertaker, but of course he still wasn't made. Randy Orton was then moved to SmackDown! where he was one of the headliners at WrestleMania 22, but of course he wasn't made then either (he also wrestled Hulk Hogan at SummerSlam in 06, but he lost so of course he wouldn't have been made).Rated RKO vs DX was a good program (he was in the MITB match, but he didn't win so he wasn't made then either). Then from the October of 2007 until Backlash of 2008, he was WWE Champion. Of course, at WrestleMania XXIV he beat Triple H and John Cena to retain his title. Of course, that doesn't matter because he lost at Backlash...so it pissed all over him and he wasn't a star. Then he got injured, and was out for awhile. Upon Randy's return, he had a short thing with Batista and went onto to hot streak he has been on until TRIPLE H SHAT ALL OVER HIM.

What fucking more does Randy Orton need to be solidified as one of the top stars in WWE? He is already a top star in the WWE, and will be the future of the company but he will never be "the torchbearer' because his mic work isn't good enough to play a babyface and his ring work is still not on the same level as HHH, HBK, Taker, etc.

That's just what I mean though. He's always been booked inconsistently. He'll be in a major program with someone, then his momentum gets killed off. This was the longest period of time in which he looked like he could believably beat anyone, and this win could have cemented that as permanent. But like always, they've stopped his momentum yet again. Just the way I see it.

Do you want him to be booked like Goldberg for a year or something?

No I want him to be booked like he has been recently, except add in an actual payoff.

So, you are upset that the heel didn't win the main event against the face after 3 months of beating up old men, women, and being a chickenshit heel who never really got his comeuppance until the "blowoff match"?

Also, I don't want to hear anything about Orton not being good enough. He's on the same level talent-wise as Batista, Edge, and Cena. None of those guys are on the same level as HHH, HBK, or Taker from a talent aspect. But they could walk into an event and beat them believably, because of how they were pushed into the main event. That was the key. Not their actual talent, but the process that took them to the top.

When the hell has Edge gotten a clean "payoff" win?

It's already been mentioned that the fued wasn't one-sided. Triple H struck back several times. And in this case yeah, that's what I want. Because orton, and the fued as a whole stood much more to gain from winning than triple h did.

Kills orton's momentum. Kill's the fued's momentum. Orton winning would have given them a great way to keep the fued going, as now the face has to cahse the heel for the belt. And with orton having a victory over him at the biggest stage of them all, would have made orton seem even more of challenge, and stack the odds even higher against triple h.

Logically, it just seems the best option, unless they planned to just drop this fued at mania. Which in itself, wouldn't make a lot of sense.

I won't speculate since the draft is in a week, but I agree that Orton was the better choice. I just don't think Orton is a poor victim who hasn't ever been given a fair shake in booking.

We are arguing how much this will affect Orton, and we'll know soon enough.

FFS. HHH winning was hardly the worst thing that could happen. It keeps the fued, which has ben HOT running though to Backlash. Get the fuck over it.

I knew Shawn would lose. I figured Randy would win. Strange.

That match was boring and wierd though. I figured it would be boring, but for a Wrestlemania main event there was no epic twist or even any real story line conclusion.

Am I the only one who didn't see this going anywhere to begin with?

If Orton won, we'd get another month or two of main event Orton before Vince switches prescriptions and suddenly thinks Orton's not ready again. He'll dump Orton off somewhere down the card, Legacy will fade quietly into the night, and either Rhodes or Dibiase (whichever has the most actual potential) will get fired while the other wins the ECW championship or something. Wait a year or so, and we'll repeat the great Randy Orton: Is He, Or Isn't He cycle again.

Or alternatively, Trips wins, the big beltholders resume being HHH and Cena, and we find ourselves having trouble keeping track of what year it is.

All I remember from this match was that it was a snoozefest and when I turn the tab back to the stream HHH was already hitting the pedigree so i was like

WTF, it looked to me as another HHH burying...

I really dont see how this was the main event. I could care less for Orton and I'm not even a mark for him.

In contrast, HBK Taker took me to the edge of my seat even if I only had 2 hours of sleep and I never took my eyes away. I don't see how HHH Orton became the main event because it absolutely dozed me off

It was slow, plodding, flat and hell I think it was even worse than the Taker/Big Show matches last year which were actually pretty decent

Okay, did I miss this complete badass thing over the past couple months? He stopped being a badass once Shane came out and kicked his ass.

Randy Orton should have won the match. There was enough face pay-offs in the evening. A shocking victory for Orton would not have turned fans away. It could have been used to generate interest. For example, as predictable as it would have been, the image of Randy Orton and Stephanie McMahon making out while Orton holds the WWE Title in the air to close Mania would have been fucking epic. "Holy FUCK! Triple H is going to KILL THEM!" could have been the generated response.

Triple H going over does nothing except inflate the man's ego a little bit, and send the fans home with a story concluded. Sure, it might keep going, but does anyone really want to see what happens next? Every story needs to wrap-up, but if this is not the wrap-up they seem to have gone the wrong way about it. The good guy won. He got to beat up the bad guy and his lackies a lot, and now he's got the title and the bragging rights.

What bothers me about the finish to this match, is that it just wasn't interesting or exciting. Also, Triple H just isn't going to draw. People know who he is. He's walked out of WrestleMania with the belt in 2000, 2002 and 2003. It didn't do much for business. Yes, Orton left WrestleMania XXIV WWE Champion, but that was in an undercard Triple Threat.

The booking of this feud was pretty obvious. Orton gets one over The Game on the grandest stage of them all -- Triple H isn't happy, Orton mocks him and says it's over, Triple H gets drafted to RAW, Orton shits himself. Eventually it goes to Hell in a Cell, where Triple H wins the title after some assist from Batista, who returns and continues his feud with Orton. Eventually you get a Triple Threat between Trips, Orton and Dave. Hell, Shawn Michaels could get in there, and spice things up a little. That's your summer main event program booked.

Hopefully the WWE has something else interesting in store. I'm now hoping it involves Triple H staying on SmackDown!, and keeping the WWE Title over there.

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg


Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.

You guys are missing the BIG PICTURE...What the fuck happened to the Tag Team Unification match??? HBK lite wasn't on the show. That may have been too much awesome for Houston.

The sense among some is that Orton isn't ready to be the man. Personally, I don't agree. My question though: What the hell is with the bi-polar booking?

I mean, I do think there is an element of shitty booking here to be considered. The way the feud was set up, if face HHH won, it concludes the feud and he has avenged his family, which he casual fan would like to see.

If Orton won, the bad guy goes over and a star is born. The downside is that for a PG audiance, it probably sends the wrong message and leaves the casual fan with a bad taste in their mouth.

In hindsight, I think half assed booking is the second biggest issue for me. (The overall treatment of Orton in the match being number 1) They wanted to make Orton a star but left him heel, which from a storyline point hindered what they were trying to do. As is, I think we all agree that Orton going over made the most sense, but once again, the E got in their own way.

Very good thread.
A couple of things:

1. It seems like HHH is the only heel that is not a big man that is allowed to be 'dominant'. I don't have a problem with HHH being a dominant heel, but why can't other people be dominant? Bearing in mind that Orton was white hot since his return and looked to be 'dominant', why did he suddenly change character into a chickenshit? How come Edge can be treated as a big deal and he's supposedly a chickenshit?

2. I would have preferred Orton to win it, seeing as HHH has reached his peak and can no longer draw in 'new crowds', like other people have said. But if Orton were to lose, I believe he should have had a stronger showing, something more even perhaps.

3. Orton's career certainly isn't over, but I feel its unfair for people to say that he hasn't made the best of what he's given. In most of his bigger feuds, he's walked out of it the loser. Anytime he walked out the winner, he was 'catching on'. Maybe I'm saying something blatantly obvious...

4. I truly don't believe Orton coming out of nowhere to punt someone and steal their win win in an 'undercard' title match makes him. If last Wrestlemania's victory made him, then it's an underwhelming existence.

At first I was thinking, well it will help sell for Backlash and then I realised that I was looking at it wrong. If Orton the heel won then it would be the fans gunning for the face Triple H to reclaim at Backlash. Now it's like ummm wait now are we gunning for heel Orton to claim the title or is WM the culmination of the storyline. If it is the culmination of the storyline then Orton hasn't got much out of it except that fantastic couple of weeks where he was the biggest heel in a long time IMO. I don't know, guess we'll have to see how it plays out, if at all.

We're dealing with a different time period, and a different demographic now. Whether you want to admit it or not, Cena HHH and Jeff Hardy are filling the seats and moving the merchandise.
Edge and Orton are just their foils. Just like Hogan-Piper
To be honest, it's a wonder they even get title reigns.

put it this way. if orton does not win the title in the next month i cant continue watching wreslting, because i am so fed up with this constant asslicking of triple fucking h, thus making the best heel in the company fall back yet again. and as i watched the main event i thort 'surely vince cud take his head out of triple hs ass for just one dam nite', but no he cudnt. that really pissed me of.

English please, to above poster.


Regardless of who made the decision that HHH should go over (read: I'm not saying it was HHH) its still HHH's job to go out and protect one of the company's up and comers by not allowing him to look like complete shit.

Funny how HHH seems to have trouble dong that. Deliberate or not, you can't be considered a top star if guys come out of matches with you looking like that.

yeh fair enough. can you not see that he cant carry the main event spot anymore.

Whoa, I wouldn't say that now. I think that HHH Can still BE Main Event, but he should have done the job of making Orton look credible in that loss. I feel that Orton could have come out looking better.

come on dude, he cant get the crowd going like he used to, yes my statement is abit over the top but in all respect i think its time for a new babyface to take his place, or turn him heel, just to make him more interesting instead of him always gettin one over everyone else.

I was disappointed that Orton lost, but I don't feel that this totally kills the momentum of the fued. It can easily be spun that Triple H HAD to CHEAT to beat Orton.

But there is no doubt in my mind that a clean win last night would have made Orton.

Triple H and Orton was thrown in just to fill the void. After Micheals and Taker stole the whole fucking show they were like why even try?

HUGE exception, not the rule.

Everyone keeps claiming that HHH needed to win to avenge his family. Yet in the first promo in the feud, HHH said Orton needed to beat him to avenge what happened in 2004. He said this even after Stephanie had gotten the RKO. Plus as someone had said earlier, how is HHH saving the McMahons the feel good moment everyone was waiting for? The McMahons are not considered to be victims after all they have done to other people in the past.

yea poor piper never got the world belt, and like piper said people watched wrestlemainia 1 to see hogan kick pipers ass.

While I think the match was pretty boring for a WrestleMania main event and left me with the "WTF? That's it?" feeling, I don't think it's safe to say that Orton was completely buried.

To beat Orton, HHH needed to punt him, hit him with a sledgehammer, and hit the Pedigree. I didn't necessarily see that as a burial, especially considering the sequence that happened right before that (Orton back body drop onto the table, then the sick DDT onto the floor). I was disappointed in the match and the result, but I'm expecting them to continue this feud to Backlash and maybe beyond.

Let's be honest, the crowd were pretty dead after the Taker/Michaels match. It's always the same when you have a epic pre-main event match. Same with Jericho/HHH at 18.

Despite the fact that it was the only thing Raw had done recently, I really couldn't have given a shit about the match. It was clear when on last that Trips was going to win and both seemed ridiculously lethargic during the match. The whole 'finishing moves at the start' crap, it felt like the rehearsed Warrior/Hogan match all over again.

Thankfully, Mania had three really decent matches that will save it from being remembered as truly awful.

And to the ones saying that Orton got the rub from last years WM, lets think about it. HHH pedigreed Cena, then Orton punted HHH. Orton then pinned Cena to win it. After being punted, HHH is out on RAW the very next night like nothing happened.

So Orton may have gotten a rub by winning and retaining last year. But he got nothing on HHH, and has never gotten any kind of rub from him. The only time Orton has beaten HHH for the title, is when HHH was on his 3rd match of the night. So it is same to say that HHH has never put over Orton.