Isn't that what the IWC thinks about most guys though?

Except Ricky Steamboat.

Not if you are a Mexican wearing a mask.

I really don't get all the hate. Pretty sure if he was never champion and never sniffed the main event, he'd be an IWC favorite. He's their top wrestler in the ring. People react to everything he does, whether it's a clothesline, taunt, stare, and especially his finisher.

Orton can work any style with any wrestler. WWE's done a nice job of keeping his only weakness (mic skills) to a minimum. He puts on at least a good match every night.

Randy is a man that has often come up in irl wrestling discussions.

There are different types of wrestlers / characters. Lets focus on two types right now...

1.)There are the Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels types who are a personified version of their natural self.
2.) There are others that come off more like a gimmick where a worker learns how to use and work the gimmick like The Undertaker and Randy.

Why does Randy fall into the latter? Because he is a cold and less than relatable character. Randy has not been able to evolve his character into a new direction. He has maximized any efficiency of his current approach yet that will not allow him to transcend to every fan or global stardom because it is less than easy to be empathetic with his character.

Orton does not openly put himself into the character. It may be a fundamental flaw of his psyche, in real life, that he may be unable to be vulnerable on a personal basis and vulnerability communicates to us that we are one.

If a fan has yet to experience a character as being true vulnerable, something that generates from the person behind the character, then a fan is less than likely to be able to attach his or her heart to that character. Thus Randy is stuck in a stale like climate.

He can succeed in this climate yet he may not reach such status like that of Austin or Michaels.

Randy must learn how to be himself and then be himself as a wrestling character. It is likely that he is not 'the center of the room / party' when he is around, farther than any superficial aspects that business may create for him.

So Randy is doing well and is having success yet it is fractional compared to what he can achieve when in full harmony with himself. As of now Randy is on a path to becoming a franchise unto himself yet that is something different from Austin type of success. Randy's success is without pomp and circumstance, it is a dry yet powerful success. Cold, emotionless and unattached. He is giving what he can give yet it is mostly physical.

Randy Orton is young and there is hope that he will learn much prior to finishing his career. So who knows where Randy will go or how big he may become. He was raised as the Yang to John Cena's Yin so perhaps Randy will some day, eventually, fulfill the greatest roles of them all.




-Cheers
Taker it Easy and listen to those voices

he bores me. his matches bore me. his move spots are boring.

boring.

This man knows what he's talking about

Guarantee there are a few that think Rey is stale and "needs" a heel turn. Or were you talking about Sin Cara? :shifty:

What I took from this post: Randy Orton should start shitting in Eve's bag on-air, thus getting him to the next level of Superstardom.

Good post, although I'm not sure that Orton is not at the level you are talking about. The guy is immensely over. Like...immensely.

I'm still all-for Orton being cost the World Heavyweight Championship at Over the Limit by Bray Wyatt and Eli Cottonwood, with Wyatt showing Orton the "sins of his past" and that he will now experience a reckoning for it.

The acting SmackDown! General Manager after Over the Limit, Teddy Long, gives Orton an opportunity to face Bray Wyatt on SmackDown!. Just as it looks like Orton is about to win, Wyatt's follower, Cottonwood, gets in the ring and Chokeslams Orton. Wyatt and Cottonwood then beat-down Orton as officials come out to stop the attack so Orton can get medical attention.

It sets up Orton vs. Wyatt in a Steel Cage Match or something at No Way Out, which Orton can win, but it gives Wyatt a pretty strong introduction into the WWE. And from there, we have Money in the Bank, where Orton could add "star-power" to the SmackDown! Money in the Bank Ladder Match. Orton can then be built as Sheamus' next challenger to the World Heavyweight Championship for SummerSlam, where I think Orton taking the title would be a good move.

Orton confuses me. He is one of the few "top stars" that almost always elevates the up and comers to whatever their next level is. (Case and point, Rhodes when lost the mask and took the bell shot, and the miz when he won the title.) but he just doesn't seem to have the feel of a top guy.
Also, he is one of the people who, when in the title picture, is better with the title rather than chasing. Idk, he's just always there and can be long-term champ or transitional champ but as said.......I just don't really ever think about him as "the guy" or even #2 nowadays

I don't think there's a really close #2 I can think of. Cena and Orton are the only two regularly active main event guys who are established like the company has struggled to do with so many others.

CM Punk and Sheamus feel like that to me. Daniel Bryan has actually got a shot of it, despite certain troll opinions.

As much as I like Punk and Sheamus, they've still got a long way to go to be established in that "top guy" spot. They're both relatively new to their positions. It takes years and years to get to Orton and Cena's level and/or stellar booking for a decent amount of time. Neither has had that yet.

As for Bryan, brush it off as a troll opinion all you want, I don't see the "it" factor. He has a SHOT to me like a lot of guys on the roster have a SHOT. It's just a really really really really long one.

I'd say Jericho may be the closest right now if it weren't for the fact that he doesn't feel like he's back for any reason other than to make others look good. I don't get the feeling he's in it for the long haul. If he had never left, he'd definitely be up there though.

Randy Orton is great, but.............
 

Randy Orton is great, but.............

I personally believe that Randy Orton is great. Why? Because - despite the fact that he's a face, his character hasn't really lost any of its 'edge'. His character is constant. He is very similar to Undertaker, Kane, and Triple H, in this regard.

Unfortunately - the WWE missed the boat in making Randy a "mega star" in my opinion........twice.

In 2004 after Randy Orton defeated Chris Benoit at Summerslam, and at Wrestlemania 25 when Orton lost to Triple H.

In both cases, Orton could have really skyrocket to the next level.........but bad booking and bad character transition really hurt him.

In 2004 - it was due to a premature face turn.......a face turn that lead to a very significant alteration of character and a complete loss of 'edge'.

At Wrestlemania 25, he should have gone over Triple H cleanly.......and should have continued to be a complete badass as a dominant heel. Remember that one RAW where he got that crazy look in his eye and almost kicked Stephanie McMahon in the head? (to the point where Dibiase and Rhodes even had to hold him back). THAT was perfect........and the WWE should have booked Orton to kick Stephanie in the head.

At current - Orton is a strong competitor for the WWE and would not be out of place as a World title contender, but the WWE could have and should have done so much more with Orton. He could have and should have been a lot bigger.

If the WWE aren't careful, they are going to ruin their potential with CM Punk as well.

The voices in his head are clearly holding him back at this point. He really needs to just let them go. :shifty:

No, but SERIOUSLY. This guy takes his character way too seriously, and we all know how prone he is to anger outbursts (destroying hotel rooms, yelling at people who ask him politely for an autograph in public...). Not only that but the whole "I'm the hero who's really more of an anti-hero is so played out and clichéd for Orton now...needs something to freshen his character up.

A heel turn you say?

No. I don't know what they can do with him right now, TBH. He's great in the ring but no matter whether he's face OR heel, the whole hero is really an anti-hero dichotomy always makes him seem, in my book to be a tweener guy. :-\

Then you have him fight the bad guys and befriend the good guys... tweener issue easily solved.

Pretty sure he was talking about the IWC preferring the heel versions of wrestlers, not just bitching about them.

I get that he's a face right now. I DO. I'm just saying it seems to me that his character as it is right now, whether he portrays it as a face or heel, will always SEEM to certain fans, like myself, that he's a tweener guy, despite the evident reality.

Just to clarify (hopefully).

I don't think it's that deep. He's playing a ruthless character but as long as he's being ruthless against heels, he's a face. I always felt "tweener" was reserved for guys who fought both heels and faces equally.

Yeah, he's kinda feuding with Sheamus now but WWE always does that "rift between the faces" thing leading into a fatal fourway.

LOL, I dunno, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Orton's reactions are definitely face reactions.

Again, I entirely agree with you. The second Orton/Triple H feud didn't grab my attention, but I heard that it was good. What was interesting about it on paper was that it was the heel chasing in an attempt to usurp the throne. I understand why they had Triple H go over, but I think it was the wrong call. Triple H should have passed the torch to the new mega-heel of the generation, and then some other babyface would have gotten a huge rub from beating Orton for the WWE Title.

As for 2004 -- well, I've written much on that. I still feel that the WWE had two ways to go with it:

1) Orton actually gave in to Triple H and handed the World Heavyweight Title over to him. Orton would remain a heel for the foreseeable future, with guys like Chris Benoit telling him that he's better than Triple H. Ric Flair would eventually even snap, and turn face with Orton, telling him to knock him off. Orton would then win the 2005 Royal Rumble and do what Batista did -- challenge Triple H at WrestleMania 21 for the World Heavyweight Championship.

2) Since he did something that Triple H could not do (beat Chris Benoit), Orton would prove to be "the present" of the WWE and no longer "the future." Triple H would then become "the past," but Flair already held that mantle. Therefore, Orton, Batista and Flair overthrow Triple H, kicking him out of his own group, and then searching for a new "future" of the company. Triple H would regroup, and as a lone wolf -- having made so many enemies in his top heel run -- Triple H would go after Orton, winning the 2005 Royal Rumble to earn a title shot against the young lion who replaced him after SummerSlam.

You know, I never saw Edge as a "Top Player" in the same league as Austin, Rock, Hogan, etc but the guy did pretty good for himself.