Well, except maybe The Bashams. ;)

But both were considered to be good ideas in the past...

Times change. Just because it worked once doesn't mean it'll work again or it's still a good idea.

Slavery was NEVER a good idea. It may have been "considered a good idea" by some people, but then again, so was the killing of Jews in the Holocaust.

Forcing people to work their way up, on the other hand, in my opinion, IS a good idea. Case and point? Look at Brock Lesnar. Probably the first guy ever to break right in and get such a huge push, straight to the top. Not even two years later, he's threatening to kill anyone that uses the internet.

Mick Foley - former multi time World Champ, tag champ, and everything else...but he clawed for all he got. ALL he got. As a result, to this day, he seems to be a down to earth guy who can separate "wrestler" from "person".

Al Snow - very dedicated performer, never held a World Title. Doesn't seem to carry a grudge. Very good.

It builds character in AND out of the ring, in my opinion.

I'll reiterate once more though. Regardless of anything, slavery was never eeeeeeeeevvvveeeeeeerrrr a "good idea".

Because your opinion condemns one and not the other.

I see.

Okay, so you're saying "back then slavery was a good idea?" :-\

It was according to the paradigm that they lived by.

I am not condoning slavery.

However, the slave owners sure as Hell thought it was a good idea.

The wrestlers on top think it's a good idea.

Alright, here's another angle to look into with that particular analogy though. The wrestlers on top now had to go through this same due-paying process that they're calling for to be placed upon the younger stars.

Slave owners, up until right near the very end of slavery, were never former slaves that had "worked their way up" into the slave owners.

Yes, the big stars of the past did "pay their dues."

Mostly because EVERYBODY paying dues used to be somthing that every wrestler had to go through until the last couple of years.

You gave the example of Brock being a hothead after only a few years, and Mick Foley being a good guy.

How about Angle, a guy who really didn't pay his dues being a complete team player compared to guys like Triple H, Randy Savage, Shawn Michaels, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Bob Holly, Undertaker, ect. who DID pay their dues?

Citing one asshole who did not pay their dues and one good guy who did and blaming the fact that the guy is an asshole on not paying his dues doesn't cut it.

It's pointless to try and say that wrestling is diffrent from slavery because people arn't forced into wrestling. So now anything that people arn't forced into shouldn't imrpove? People wern't nececarily forced into factory work in the 19th century, but saying that the working conditions there shouldn't have improved is ridiculous.

The fact that the WWE is a business with the main purpose of making a revenue for it's share holders (somthing any wrestler should understand) would make it very stupid of them to hold back a more talented wrestler so they can put in an older guy who has paid his dues. It's the way the world works. People advance in life based on their skill. Wrestling, whether some people want to think so or not, is a competitive business, and not somthing that anybody who puts the time into will automatically excel in.

I would not like it, but would know that he is better qualified for the position than I am, and understand. As I have already stated, I have experienced somthing similar to this, and accepted it. If everybody advanced soley on the time and effort they put in, the world would be a lot less efficient of a place.

I'm not saying that anything besides slavery shouldn't be improved...but there's basically no comparison for it. It's not a good analogy to use at all. It's like comparing apples to ancient Japanese parasitic bacteria.

It's only different in your book because you support one and not the other.

There is a valid analogy, you would just rather say that since you, in this century, object to what used to be an accepted way of life (An invalid argument in and of itself), it's irrelevent. And then you go ahead and continue with your explanation that it's good because it's the way it's traditionally done. You're validating based on tradition and history...Hmmmm...

You only don't like the analogy because a paradigm you believe in is being compared to a paradigm you don't.

And your point is?

You're trying to use minutia to disprove a comparison unrelated to said minutia.

And while we're being anal, identical twins are not identical because they don't have matching fingerprints.

The Atlantic and Pacific oceans have no grounds for comparison because they're on ENTIRELY different coasts...

And comparing the Klan and the Nazis as hate groups is invalid because they had different OUTFITS! OMGGGG!

I am in favor of paying dues. However, there are those who seem to transcend and are good right off the bat (Cena, Lesnar, Angle, etc). But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos (Show even admitted as much on an episode of, get this, Tough Enough).

Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp. Three come to mind: "Mean" Marc Callous, Rock and Flash of the Blade Runners, and "Stunning" Steve. When they first came out, they didn't have what it took to be the biggest names of the sport. After learning the craft, paying their dues (Oh, the Horror), and devolping their skills, all four became Mega Stars. I'm sure the last is the most of obvious (He went from being "Stunning" to just "Stone Cold"), the other three are well known as well. Mean Marc, after a stint as a Skyscraper and as a singles star being managed by Paul E. Dangerously, went North for Survivor Series as an Impressive Monster by the name of the Undertaker. Rock was a bit of a flash in the pan, going to WCCW as the Dingo Warrior, and finally he went North as well, becomming the Ultimate Warrior. Flash stuck it out in UWF when it was bought out by the NWA. He was the only UWFer who got over on his own merits, as the rest were subsequently buried. He is now one of the best known wrestlers never to have worked for Vincent K. McMahon: Sting.

Paying Dues, when done properly, is a good thing. Personally, I have agreed with Holly's words: Most of the Tough Enough Talents are green and should still be honing their craft away from the big time. Does that justify him roughing up the kids? Hell no. Should he have Main Evented? Definitely not. Then again, I've always thought that Jake "The Snake" should have been given a WWF Title run, so I can't know a whole lot.

Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to.

And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.

Brock
s record as a hothead may come, in part, from his NCAA record.

I doubt "Not paying his dues" had anything to do with it...Hardcore Holly's sure not a more wstable person for it...Or a more capable wrestler...

I think it just may come from being a main eventer, period.

Being on top can change people whether they paid dues or not.

The whole reason for my posting about Paying Dues and listing examples was because someone equated Paying Dues to Slavery. Hey, I think with some time, Rob Conway, Rene Dupree, and even Randy Orton, who I admittedly don't care for, can be big stars. They just need to develop their skills.

I'm not exactly sure he was stable to begin with though.

I've got to agree with pepsi man.

To me, paying your dues is not just about making it hard for young people to get into the business. It is about showing that you have respect for the business, that you are willing to work your ass of to get to the top and work with other people to get there.
It is a good thing because it weeds out the people who are not serious about the business.

Paying your dues earns you respect with the other wrestlers showing them your willing to work hard like they have, not just have something handed to you on a plate..

No...

Someone equated that tradition was not always a good reason to justify an outdated and oft ridiculous practice.

There's a difference, BTW, between the concept of "Paying dues" and the concept of developing talent as long as it takes to make them good.

If they were doing that, Holly would still be in the developmental stage. They've enacted a senority system, which the people at the top seem to be okay with (naturally). They dislike people jumping to the top, even when they clearly have the talent. Brock didn't need the same level of training your average Joe did. He shouldn't have to be kept down, and it's better for the company if better competitors shine through.

People like Brock are the exception and not the rule.

Pepsi, you're an idiot.

It isn't a matter of paying due...in which they pretty much do in OVW when they're sent there for developing. They have one year to show they have what it takes to get on tv, and if they don't have it, goodbye, nice knowing you.

Holly is another sad example of pathetic Southern Americans who are so pathetically hard-headed and so god damned stupid that he's so set in one way he can't change. He is just pathetic, and I hope he gets even more what's coming to him in the future.

If you don't see a huge difference between slavery and pro wrestling, I'm wasting my time here.

Wait, it was a valid analogy until I found a BIG difference between the two.

I never said it's an excuse for anyone to try to legitimately injure people. And him in a title match? Eh, I'll admit, I can forgive it. It was comic relief for me. His promos had me laughing almost as hard as in WCW when Kanyon used to do the Kanyon Kutter on random guys backstage.

Lesnar got out of his car and screamed at a fan once, though he made it up, and allegedly, he gave Kurt a hard time at Mania about who called the action.

You're a wrestler, right? With Youell and the guys in England, correct?

Maven, Miss Jackie, and Shaniqua were put on TV like the following week after winning it, ON Raw. Maybe they learned their lesson by the third one, but don't go twisting it up.

They were on Raw the week after they won to promote the show.

And Lesner getting angry at somebody who hit his car in traffic has NOTHING to do with wrestling.

They wrestled a few weeks...and shortly after December 2001, Maven went full time. He even wrestled Booker T at Christmas. Somehow, that doesn't seem like a year after Tough Enough ended. :-\

Jackie and Shaniqua, then known as Linda Miles started competing regularly almost right away, until Jackie SEVERELY ****ed up in a mixed tag match with her and Nowinski against like Trish and Dreamer.

I'm sorry...they promoted the show for a few weeks.

And who ever said Maven had to wrestle for a year in order to wrestle in the WWE?

They tried claiming Tough Enough only gets you in OVW for a year. That simply didn't happen, up until the last one.

They claimed the winner would be rewarded with a 1 year develepmental contract.

Which does not mean they cannot be called up.

I don't even see what you are trying to prove anymore.

I've made a majority of my points, but bottom line is these people were put on TV immediately thereafter winning. I'm not about to let the past be tweaked. Like I said, I'm glad they learned their lesson by the third one, but prior to that, they were being added right onto the main rosters.

Making a few appearences on TV before being sent back to OVW is NOT adding them to the main roser right away.

From what I see, the point you are trying to make is that even if somebody has the talent to make it big time, they should have to wait while "paying their dues" regardless. Which makes no sense in any way.

Hell, to be frank, in wrestling, EVERYONE "has the talent" to make it big. You need skills. Skills and development. I mean ****, any mother ****er around could jump in a wrestling ring and get over, all depending on the mood of the crowd at the time, but only through working your way to the top have you earned it and have you REALLY learned what in the hell you're doing.

Yes, anybody could probably get over with a main event push. The point is (or at least should be) to push the people who are the most talented.

And you really don't seem to get the point that simply wrestling for a longer amount of time does not make somebody more talented.

Yes, people do need to hone their skills, but saying that somebody who has wrestled for 3 years should be on the card over a more talented wrestler who has only wrestled for a year is absurd. Life is not a waiting list.

Like I said, skills versus talents. Even Brock himself, who I have grown to like, botched that SSP in the main event of WrestlefreakingMania. I'm not saying there's NO way, but do you really think that if he were in the business another five years or so before that match that he necessarily would've screwed that up.

Experience. There are too many situations in wrestling, and it takes time to realize how to cover all of them regardless of how much "talent" one has.

I see, I was confused there: I figured Paying Dues = Developing Talent. Which was sort of my definition.

I didn't see a problem with what he was saying because his definition of paying dues and mine were different.

Telling me Brock is the exception goes with what I said above:

Brock and the like know the basic moves, they just needed time devolping the other skills. I even remembering hearing at one point that Jericho was coaching Kurt on mic skills and he has gone quite far in that department, especially when he and Joey Styles were calling a Little Guido/Taz match in ECW. Hearing that Kurt Angle and the one who's on Smackdown is like two different people altogether. Of course, the basics out of the way saved a great deal of time. I have no problem with the folks who are already ready to go to the next level ASAP. The ones who aren't ready, like some I have mentioned, need some time developing.

But yeah, Holly needs an extended stay in OVW.

So you are saying Brock was not ready for the big time. Which is a seprate argument entirely.

I am saying that people should be put in the WWE when they have the skills needed to do so, and not have to wait longer just because assholes like Bob Holly think they should have to pay their dues.

Key words you just said right there, WHEN they have the skills. "Paying dues" is what gets those skills. Nothing else. All the "talent" in the world doesn't equal one iota of a skill point.