To many factors play into the fact that I cant seem to make a list with 5 full guys. I get to about 3 and then I just get flustered, and most of them were already mentioned.

This topic should be narrowed down. I dont agree with most of the things Reavant said, and mainly just because they way he said everything, I cant totally disagree either. MMA 15 years ago and MMA today are 2 different sports. However, saying that Royce is not an MMA fighter is fucking dicktarded because regardless of when it was and what style he was using, it was still MMA. You said it yourself, he went out and used a style that no one else used and proved it was superior. However, the other fighters were using different styles also, and MMA was founded on stylized matchups. Of course Royce was MMA, he was just the bare bones MMA. Of course he did a lot for the sport, his entire family did a lot for the sport.

Him losing to Hughes does not in anyway really tarnish the guy. Since you "train" and have "trained" with other fighters, you should already know that people win and loose. Matt Hughes is a dickhead, but a great fighter, and was welterweight champion at the time. Losing to the champion in your respective weightclass does not take anything away from you as a fighter. Thats why he is the CHAMPION, because he was the best at that time in his weightclass. Regardless, Gracie fights in a week, and if you want to see how far he has come (I have seen some of his new stuff), tune into K-1 Dynamite and watch him fight one of my fav fighters. Or as Rampage calls him "Sakaraba's old ass".

It's funny that he names Couture, but doesn't say Gracie because he lost to Hughes.. Couture has lost a few time, bro.. And Liddell?? Come one, Liddell lost TWICE to a fighter you're are trying to convince people doesn't belong on the list..

Every MMA fighter will lose.. Someone, some night will throw that perfect punch.. Everyone can be knocked out or submitted, I don't care how badass you are..

So im a fucking idiot? ok. well, ive given you my argument and along with it being valid points, its not like im making it up. I did form my opinion around what i hear others in the business say. Now i know you have some man crush on gracie, and i think hes great too, but if you cant make an argument that isnt rooted from soly how much you like the competitor and not on being objective then please shut up.

You are making the argument based on your opinions also.. It's a subjective discussion.. There is no possible way to have a definitive list because it's like arguing Ali/Tyson.. Opinions are gonna come into play..

ugh!... ok.... I have said many times now that leaving gracie off wasnt really anything to do with losing to hughes so much as the fact that he was just a jujitsu fighter. I used the example of him losing to huges to show what happened when he had to rely on more than just jujitsu.

Yea I realized Cotour has lost a few times, but the way he has developed himself and has been able to come back better and better and be a true study of the sport is what makes him a top guy.

If Liddel got his ass beat by Rampage Id have to agree with you. BUT he got caught in his second fight. Ever since his loss to cotour, he has improved his style and grown as a fighter. Rampage is a great fighter, I just dont see him as one of the best because he consistantly has trouble with people that dont back down to him and come right after him. Maybe after he proves himself some now that he has new trainers that will change but right now he has done nothing but connect with one good punch.

Have you seen his old Pride fights??

He dominated Liddell in their first fight, he KO'ed Arona with a slam, and even looked good losing to legends like Sakuraba.. Sure he's lost a few times in the past few years but it was to guys like Waderlei Silva (who as much as I hate to say it had a great chance of beating Liddell had that fight happened) and Shogun Rua (who would be contending for the Lightweight Championship in UFC if he was there)..

For you to make it out like it was a lucky punch is stupid as fuck.. The same could be said for Liddell against Couture or Ortiz.. Rampage KO'ed Liddell with a perfectly placed punch.. Lucky or no, he won the fight fair and square.. Just like Liddell has won many fights by landing a great punch.. Doesn't devalue the win..

Once again, I don't care if you didn't put him on your list, but to cast away him and Royce Gracie is retarded.. It shouldn't even be an arguement anyway because it's like arguing who's better Elvis or the Beatles.. It's subjective..

Im not saying Rampage had a lucky win. Your right it was legit, but it wasnt a completely dominating performance like it was the first time. If he handled Chuck like that the second time it would be a little different. Not to take anything away from him, but it didnt show to anyone that Chuck was all that inferior to Rampage. He didnt get killed he got caught. I personally would have liked Rampage to kill chuck rather than catch him. I also think that he would have anyway. What I am saying about rampage is that guys who actually come at him the same speed and intensity that he comes at them usually doesnt work out well for Rampage, NOW I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, but there are far fewer exceptions than there is evidence.

And if fighters werent worried about being PC on camera theyd be saying the same thing about Gracie.... AGAIN Im not taking anything away from what gracie has done for the sport, and what hes done, but I am saying the god honest truth that he until recently as just been a jujitsu fighter.

It doesn't matter if he is a jujitsu fighter. What matters is wins and drawing money. And he did both. What has Chuck Liddell for example done that Gracie didn't? Liddell only won by KO so is he only a stand up fighter? That doesn't make his wins any less impressive.

What does wins and drawing money have to do with being an mma fighter. In terms of accomplishment there isnt much difference, but lets not reach for examples here. Chuck has a pretty decent ground game in that no one can keep him down long enough to do damage. He also can stop nearly everyoes shots. Which is a deterrent for other people to shoot on him. That would be his skills from wrestling. Oh and just cuz hes stays on his feet doesnt say anything about his skills but rather the skills of his opponent and how they do not have the skills to make him change his style.

The only way I would revise my top 5 would be replacing liddel with pat militich.

Starting to come around ?

no

ok

Are you serious?

If you are a great fighter, you win fights and make a ton of cash. How hard is that to understand?

List Frank's acoplishments..

Drawing money just means your popular. If the crowd wants to se you then you will be seen and paid for it. Simple as that. Now your going to make an arguement about how if your a great fighter you will be popular and making money. Whatever. The fact is that money doesnt translate to being a MMA fighter. Pat Militch was a good one too but almost everythinghe did after ultimate fighting was in trouble was underground in places that didnt have functional sporting commisions. Oh and he wasnt making much money... in case you were wondering.

Actually Bas Rutten beat Frank 2 out of three times. He beat Frank in a split decision and the other because of a stoppage because of a cut. Now I didnt see the fight that was stopped from the cut, so Bas might have been killing him, but a split decision doesnt sound that convincing. And Franks first fight ever was against Bas where he beat him in a split decision. He also never lost his title in the UFC.

Oh and dont forget that Bas has been submitted by Ken Shamrock twice, so its not like hes untouchable

1. Glen Danzig
2. Glen Danzig
3. Glen Danzig
4. Ken Shamrock
5. Glen Danzig

i like what u did there

Nobody is untouchable in this sport though.

That was the point I was trying to make... Krispy was trying to take away frm frank saying he got killed by Bas.

Ok to get back to the original point of the entire argument itself that I still dont agree with you about, is that Royce Gracie is an has always been an MMA fighter.

MMA up until 6 years ago was not about "Everyone being a complete fighter". It was about you putting "your style" against your competitors (AHEM *Hence ***Mixed*** Martial Art's), and seeing who came out on top. Anyone that would say that about Gracie is tool, and didnt fight pre 2000.

If thats true about Gracie, then its true about every other fighter before fighters started to train differently for MMA itself. If Gracie isnt an MMA fighter, then neither is Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Kimo Leopoldo, Tank Abbott, Frank Mir, Igor Vovchancyn and any other fighter that I could think of off the top of my head that uses 1 particular strategy more then another.

If nobody could beat jujitsu, it would still be MMA today dominated by the jujitsu style. It's still Mixed Martial Arts.

I can't believe I'm even debating this now.

6 years ago MMa wasnt even a term that was used. The term was no holds bar fighting or ultimate fighting which really meant the same thing. MMA is by definition the terms of embodying many different forms of martial arts and using them. It also is a term that is in reference to the rules and practice that goes into the MMA style of fighting. Now before you try and make it sound like Im saying everyone before 6 years ago wasnt an mma fighter then slow down. Gracie brought in a style that was superior to all others and after three UFC tournaments where he dominated, everyne started to incorporate his style into theirs. I will say that every fighter n those early tournaments were not mma fighters either. they were martial artists, not mixed martia artists.

once they started to incorporate other styles then they developed into the mma style. Now I havent seen Gracie fight recently and i heard hes been doing good in fights but until he mounts a comeback where he is domnating everyone Im not puting him on my list.

Sorry MMA was being used 6 years ago. All you need to do is find the old Wrestling Observer shows or the Eddie Goldman shows on Eyada from 1999 to 2001.

I hate the term MMA. It's professional fighting not really martial arts.

I like what I do every where.

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That was a fat shitty metal singer, not a trained MMA fighter..

BTW, for the record (just so in 3 or 4 years I can bump this and brag) - am I the only would who thinks IF he continues at it like he is, Brock Lesnar could potentially end up on this list.

Absolutely not. I called his in the wrestling forum months ago.