People said Tiki would only be a third down back. :-\

I highly doubt it was TERRIBLE - I just don't think he was a blazer or anything.

Speed does mean something, its not the only thing, but it matters. Say speed doesn't matter when your teams linebacker, that runs a 4.6, is trying to catch a running back, that runs a 4.4

Rice wasn't a WR that relied on having blazing speed, a guy like Moss thrives on it. Rice was more of a possession reciever, so he could get by not having blazing speed. Like Stima said, I am sure it wasn't horrible either.

Seems to me the Patriots won another superbowl with a 6th-round compensation pick at QB, a patchwork offensive line, old white dudes at linebacker, and a wide receiver at cornerback.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you can play football, then being an athlete doesn't matter.

You people that try to claim the Patriots win with bad players playing as a team is a joke. They win with underrated players who are some of the best in the league at what they do.

Besides using extreme and wrong exagerations, even mentioning Troy Brown disproves your point in itself. Are you saying that he is untalented at football or that he is not an elite physical specimen? Because if I'm not mistaken that is why he is able be as good as he is.

Furthen then, I am talking about individual players. If you have great hands but run a five second forty, you likely aren't going to make it in the NFL, and if you do you will be the equivilent to Keenan Howry. To even try to insinuate that the Patriots win by using scrubs is just rediculous.

I can't stop, this quote is just too priceless. There are so many people who can play football that don't physically meet the demands of the NFL, its just that simple. Darren Sproles is probably one of the most talented RB's in the draft, but he will be taken late and will probably spend his NFL career as a return specialist. Sure, there are going to be exceptions, but if you don't match up physically in the NFL, somebody else will. I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make about the Patriots, unless you are implying that their team is made up of guys who are smart football players but not physically gifted. If that is your point, then besides being off-topic, I simply disagree.

I know I come off like a dick right there, but to justify it if I thought the other post wasn't coming off the same way I would have reacted differently. My opinion has not changed: If you don't match up physically, theres most likely going to be somebody better to take your place.

I completely agree with you. However, I do believe Jerome Bettis is the exception to your third down back rule. My comment was directed at all the time quotes. This is not track and field we are talking about. I am not impressed with who is the fastest runner. If you are extremely fast, and have additional stats of rarely fumbling the ball, a low number of missed tackles, or few drops on catchable balls, that is when I am impressed. My Packers have pretty fast people on defense, but can't tackle anybody to save their life.

No you're wrong. How was I being off-topic? On Madden they have this fake conversation about "combine skills vs intangibles." And Tony Bruno says that at the combine, the coaches were afraid of Culpepper's small hands. That's why he was picked like, after what, Akili Smith and Cade McNown? I can't remember correctly, but he was picked extremely low in terms of quarterbacks, when he was the best QB in that draft. Then they brought up Anquan Boldin, who singlehandedly discounts your argument. He set Rookie Records, and was what, the 10th WR taken in the draft?

And please, you're trying to say that the Patriots players are all "underrated," discounting the coaching and discipline of the team. Think about the Vikings. The dude said it well about the Packers... the Vikings have some extremely talented defensive players. But they're dumb. Who cares how fast and strong you are if you run to the wrong place in coverage, or hit the wrong gap in run defense? You take a guy like Teddy Bruschi who is just a big blue collar dude, and you put him in the right place at the right time every play, then he's worth more than 1,000 Dontarrius Thomases. http://www.kffl.com/static/sample/gm..._tom_brady.pdf

Just read that. Dunno, it says he sucks athletically in every sense of the word, and check this out: http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/ce/featu...275_59,00.html

Brady was rated high, but he was no Tee Martin. :?: One of the main things about the top 5 QBs was that they had the "physical abilities."

And pray tell, dude, if Troy Brown is so gifted, why was he released? :?:

Why? Because the Patriots don't care who's in there, they can plug in a WR at DB and DEs at LB and DTs at DE and CB at FS, and it all worked out, because it's a matter of preparation, toughness and discipline. Without that, you're nothing. If a WR can't concentrate, he will run bad routes and drop catchable balls. It's not a physical thing. And I honestly don't see how you could think you did anything to disprove this, either. Besides saying I was off-topic :?: and wrong. Good one!

What you are saying makes it sound like I said something completely different then I said. The way thats written out implies that I said a great athlete can be a great football player, what I did say is that if you have talent but not the physical ability or physical ability but not the talent, there is going to be somebody better then you.

You make it sound like you could throw Cris Hovan into DB for the Patriots and he would immediately become all-pro or something. The fact of the matter is that Troy Brown is a great football player. He was cut for salary issues because the Patriots have a knack for finding the cheap guys who are incredibly underrated, and besides that they have other guys who are better then Brown who will be coming back.

You are veering off into something completely different, and thats how you are off topic. This isn't about whether a wide reciever is prepared by his coaches or not. I am talking about raw talent and physical ability, not whether a player has a good coach or not.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue, you're saying that Tom Brady is only good because he plays for the Patriots? You could throw any wide reciever, no matter the natural talent or physical ability into a CB slot for the Patriots and he would automatically be good? That article you linked said nothing about Brady's athleticism, but thats beyond the point since I have been talking about positions that require athleticism as well as talent, RB, WR, DB, LB etc.

So you don't argue against points I never made again:
1. You need BOTH athleticism and talent to be elite at a skill position in the NFL
2. Troy Brown fits both descriptions of #1, which is why he was able to fill in so nicely for the Patriots. He's not your average player.
3. The Patriots have extremely talented players on their team, they aren't just a bunch of scrubs thrown together that somehow mesh under the coaching staff to become winners.

Bean, is it just me or do you think that this Moss trade may indirectly come back to haunt the Vikings in more ways then on the field? I've just been reading some of the articles about Moss's entrance into Raider Nation today, and it seems like a more extravagent and positive situation then ever with the Vikings. I'm not positive, but I would have to guess that the Vikings don't have the greatest front office and everything, and I think Moss in a better run organization could really put a bad light on the Vikes. If it does though, maybe it will convince the people to build a stadium...nah what am I thinking?

Everybody in the NFL is a great athlete, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Patriots players are just as good as Vikings players.

I wouldn't call a 6'5 400 lbs centre a great athlete

Why wouldn't you? If he wasn't a great athlete, he wouldn't be able to play in the NFL. He wouldn't be able to handle 4 quarters. He'd get injured immediately, be winded constantly, and never even make it out of training camp.

So if he's in the NFL, he's a great athlete.

Are you serious? That probably makes him even a better athlete that hes able to run around and block people with all that weight. The foot work that NFL lineman have is unbelievable.

so Moss is a Raider... #18. now what?

If he wasn't a good athlete, then some other 6'5" 400 pound guy would come in and take his place, simple as that.

I don't remember Moss ever being #18 on the Vikings, but its reported that he was his first season. Hmm, whatever?

BTW....Star Tribune says that Vikings are probably going to take Braylon if he is still around :love:

In training camp in 98.

SIGH.

You honestly don't get it. Like Steamer said, any player in the NFL is a great athlete. That can't be denied. What you said first that got me itching is...


You said you can't have one without the other, and I said that you can. Obviously if you don't know how to play football, you can't be an elite athlete and succeed. That was my point. That is why I agree with you there. However, if you are just a "good athlete," and not ELITE, you are not the fastest, quickest, whatever, then you will succeed. If you're smart, hard-working, tough, then ability won't matter. It's all about what's inside. Like leadership, intensity, intelligence, clutch, confidence, short memory. That is why the Patriots win the championships, because Belicheck teaches all these things, and has signed "average" talents who have above-average intangibles. But you just don't see that. You think I'm saying Brady would be nothing without Belicheck? THen why am I even arguing with you, if you can't comprehend what I'm saying. I'm wasting my time. Which is why I didn't really want to reply, but I didn't want you to feel like you somehow had "won."

I was referring more to positions of like RB, WR, DB, LB where you need a lot of athleticism to be good. A quarterback can get by without being a superior athlete, see Dan Marino. I am just saying, for an athlete of average talent, if you aren't a great athlete then the NFL is big enough so that there will be somebody who has similar talent and is a better athlete.

so McCombs said today he thought about firing Tice to "spark" Moss last season...


sdfjjsjdhfjksahfdsjkahfkjhds

this makes me hate the vikings even more I bet everyone would rather have Moss and a new coach rather than Mike Tice :mad:

I liked Napolean Harris in his first comments though. He is confident and happy to be in Minnesota, ready to lead the young defense, and if he can get some solid friends around him could be very effective.

Chris Claiborne signed with the Rams today :nono: All of a sudden the Rams defense is a lot better.

atleast the Vikes signed Williams today that should make their D-line better.

Cokley and Claiborne will improve their team drastically actually. Neither are Tedy Brushci or Jerimiah Trotter, but they are both above average guys and both big upgrades from last season. I can't imagine the Vikings defense without Claiborne last year, and we were already awful.

I think DB is basically the only position where you need to be a good athlete to be elite, but in a Cover 2, if you have good awareness, then you can make up for it. However, Rice was not elite in god-given talent, so he worked harder than anyone else to become the best. Sometimes not being the best physically makes for the best players, because knowing that there is someone out there who is more talented than you, makes you try harder. See Randy Moss vs Nate Burleson. Burleson worked his ass off because he knew he was expendable. When you're Randy Moss, you "play when you wanna play."

You see a HB like Emmitt Smith who was never that gifted, but another hard worker, and he is the all-time leading rusher. Was he gifted? Certainly. But there have been probably 100 HBs more talented since he came into the league, none of them will beat his record.

And Linebacker? You've gotta be kidding me. We went over this with the Patriots. None of their linebackers is all that great athletically... maybe Colvin, but then, how important was he? o_O

I would take a hard worker over a talent any day of the week.

Thats what I mean, but on a bigger scale. If you have two guys with average talent, there is usually going to be some characteristic that sets them apart. Bigger/faster/stronger, mentally, work ethic etc.

Where this all started is when somebody said that Maurice Clarett will still be drafted high and be a good player in the NFL, and I said that it wasn't likely because he has the natural talent, but there are other guys who maybe have less talent but better work ether or are better athletes, and thats why it is hard for a guy like Clarett to succeed.

I think that Clarett deserves a shot, and he might actually pan out, because of the rough shake he's been given. I mean come on. How horrible can one man's quest for glory be? He's been a laughingstock time and again. It pains me to see all this, and then the article that suggested he overtrained and was just physically beat, which is why he couldn't run a good 40... and then he wanted to show up to the OSU workout, and they laughed at him. He's just in a tough spot, and I definitely don't envy him, but I think that the situation he's been put in will definitely give him an appreciation for whatever he does get, whether he's drafted high, low, or not at all.

Isn't even that good? He was the best linebacker the Vikings had.

I hope he's talking about Coakly, who wasn't that great, and is like 40 years old. Claiborne is still on this side of 30, isn't he like 26? 27? Young fucker.

Yeah, Coakley is starting to decline. He used to be the man just because he played with so much heart, and was really fast to make up for his size. Now that he is getting older he is starting to lose a step. Oh well, still sad to see him go.

If Clarett can get the speed back and harness the drive, he has the talent to be good in the NFL, but just all the shit thats been happening makes that unlikely.

DONOVAN DARIUS WROTE A LETTER TO THE STAR TRIBUNE SAYING THAT HE WANTS TO PLAY FOR THE VIKINGS!!! MICHAEL BENNETT AND A DRAFT PICK AND HE IS OURS! HE IS AMAZING!

He also sent that letter to the Dolphins and a handful of other teams in the NFL.

PS: The Jags have plenty of HBs on their teams.

They would probably accept Kenny Mixon, however.

The thing in the Star Tribune said Michael Bennett was the most likely?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...l/11077387.htm

:(

Looked at a bunch of newspapers and didn't see any other reports of it

<center>Chavous Darius
</center>
<center>Henderson Harris Thomas</center>

<center>Winfield Udeze Williams Williams Mixon Smoot
</center>

<center>:eek:</center>

Darius is pretty old.

Well, 30, but getting there. I think he is past his prime anyways.

He is 29, and a big improvement over Brian Russell. We would have a sick secondary if we get him

He'll be 30 by the time the season starts, his birthday is August 12th.

meh

Listen, lets settle this like gentlemen.

Pistols at dawn.

Darrion Scott is going to be starting at end over Mixon. Mixon may be cut.

Also, remember: Darren Sharper is going to be cut soon. :eek:

I'd rather have old Sharper than old Darius. :love:

Robert Griffith on rushing downs, Sharper on passing downs. :love: :love: :love: :love:

When Sharper gets cut it might be kind of interesting.

Because I know Dallas is looking for a FS, and I've heard the Rams also have some interest in getting Sharper.

The Cardinals bringing in Griffith is proof that Hovan will be next

Sharper is cut. Favre back.

Meh, the Pack doesn't have the talent around him anymore

Who's going to stop Kevin Williams?

Favre is going to dieeeeeeeeeeeee.

Bum bum bum BUM...

THE VIKINGS HAVE SIGNED SAFETY DARREN SHARPER!

Also, it looks like the Vikings are going to let Plax walk. He left before even starting to negotiate a contract, likely on his way to Philly, and he only wants a one year deal. Personally I would rather have Braylon or Mike Williams anyway.

I don't think Plaxico isn't going to find a one year deal. Basically he publically made it known he is looking for a one year deal just to throw up some stats to increase his own market value. Pretty sad. Arrogance has gotten the best of him.

I think once he gets past this he'll find a team.

Well Plax probably won't be a Viking. :(

Anyway, I was reading the mock draft on espn.com saying that Derrick Rogers would go to Detroit.

Rogers and Boss Bailey? Are you kidding me? Who cares about Earl Holmes, man. With Big Daddy and Big Baby in the middle and Cory Hall rushing the QB, jesus christ...

Not to mention those WRs, add Pollard and Kevin Jones who started really playing well as the season went on.

Also, Jeff Garcia because Joey is a faggot.

You mean Derrick Johnson right? The linebacker from Texas?

Yea (sickkkkkk)

The Vikings just got BJ, we're solid as a rock now

<font color=black>Brad Johnson that is</font>