Can't believe Benoit is winning this. So disgusted with the rasslin forum right now. I feel like ABT like every day.

You can thank Damninator's callous comments for the state of this thread.

I'ma put you in the Crippler Crossface, son.

Which is the best submission to put on friends?

Boston Crab/lion tamer

Sharpshooter

Figure Four leg lock

Crippler Crossface

?????

And by friends I mean your wives/girlfriends/children when they get out of line.

I always went with the sharpshooter. I could never perform a figure 4. Somehow I just don't know how exactly.

Camel Clutch, that hurts bad

Fuck Chris Benoit for what he did of course, but to be fair he was miles and miles better in the ring. I've always had a soft spot for Batista but I can't in any way say objectively that he's a better wrestler than Benoit.

TERRORIST

Million Dollar Dream

Batista didn't set the world on fire but I can't think of a single way that you could argue he wasn't a bigger draw than Benoit. Numbers were down across the board as soon as Benoit won the title and got better when they put it on Batista.

Batista's WrestleMania coronation drew more than Benoit's the year before.

The buyrate for the Backlash PPV with Benoit making his first defense dipped from the previous year and then rose back up the next year with Batista making his first defense.

Raw ratings improved slightly with Batista as champion over Benoit.

Everything points to Batista being a bigger draw.

You remember that "PROVE ME WRONG" was a Benoit catchphrase, yes?

This is sound, and if I wasn't such a mark, I would think this way.

But I am.

<img src="http://pm1.narvii.com/6054/adfa176bf99bfc6f6d477f82cdc6d6992809026e_hq.jpg" width="158" alt="See the source image" style="width:158px;height:340px;" data-reactid="27">

If benoit not been such a good wrestler kid might have gotten away

Went with Batista mainly due to how bad Benoit wrecked his legacy because of the murder-suicide.

Benoit was better in terms of in-rings skills and Batista better in terms of star power and charisma/promos. Both had some really good moments during their careers but Benoit's always has that lingering cloud with his making it uneasy to enjoy watching them again.

Benoit may not have been a draw, but you put him anywhere on the card and he has the best match on the show, and the crowd that's there may not be into him initially, but more often than not they'll respect him by the end.

I'd choose Bautista in my main event before Benoit, but I'd watch a million Benoit matches before a Bautista one.

I choose Jose Bautista as well. Great player.

Joey Bats follows me on Twitter. Still voted for Benoit, though.

Think Daves non kayfabe name is Bautista. Jerk.

Why are you using his non-kayfabe name in a thread about wrestling? You think you impress The Rock?

Really hope Batista goes up again Terry Bollea next round

:rant:

Haha

I wasn't thinking about Benoit's World Heavyweight Title run, to be honest. I was thinking about how many more people gave a fuck about Benoit in WCW/WWF from about 1996-2000 than have ever watched a Batista match. Benoit may not have been the top guy, but he's always been significant and heavily featured, and he was actually quite important during the WWF's 2000. It's kind of swept under due to the vanilla midget/size/lack of personality stuff that was always an excuse to keep him out of the top role.

I think you can argue about whether or not that proved to be accurate or whether it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I was basically thinking about how more important Benoit is overall, especially when you add in stuff like his skill, his classic matches, his legacy, etc.

This goes back to the "What was the best match of WrestleMania III?" thing I've heard Al Snow talk about. Most would say Steamboat vs Savage. If you could have ONLY had one match between Steamboat vs Savage and Hogan vs Andre on that card though, Steamboat vs Savage can fuck right off.

Well you could say that about any upper midcarder from that time. There were way more people watching wrestling in general. Benoit was never a focal point while business was booming though. He was a side attraction. Not the guy you depend on to sell tickets. Like I said, Batista wasn't a huge star either but when put in the exact same position a year apart, Benoit brought business down and then Batista brought it back up.

But if I'm basing my views of wrestling on what Al Snow thinks that means I give a shit about some jobber.

What you're saying is strictly true, but I just want to challenge perspective on it a bit:

* In 1995 Benoit was part of the classic Super Juniors tournament, which will live on in history as a high point in a very shitty year, and an event that changed the direction of wrestling. From that moment on, smaller guys had a place in the business as attractions. "Side attractions?" Sure. I'll hear that, but when it came to ordering a PPV, you might look at the main event and think "Hmm, maybe," but then you'd see a Benoit vs. someone match and think "That might be worth it," and it's the garnish on the steak in a way that actually helps sell. In my opinion. You can disagree with that, and it's hard to prove, per se.

* In 1996, Benoit and Sullivan had that great match around the time the nWo were coming up. WCW was the nWo angle and then you had some great wrestling to supplement it. Extremely important, and Benoit was crucial to that; not just specifically a benefactor of wrestling getting hot. You had hot wrestling, and then you had Benoit helping to help keep those eyeballs hooked.

* Benoit was an important player in WCW. There was a definite ceiling imposed, but he even got to the World Title. He was this feeling of "potential" that was always there and helped get past some of the turgid shit. He did some great stuff with Saturn, Raven, the Horsemen, etc. Not A1 level stuff, but arguably significant. He was a talking point for anyone watching wrestling. He wasn't just a "good little hand."

* When the Radicalz jumped in 2000, people forget how important Benoit was in there. Triple H was obviously the top heel, and he wasn't letting that spot go, but Benoit helped contribute to same insanely hot stuff on Raw, during the WWF's best year, and he was in a few PPV main events that did quite well that year. Rock vs. Benoit at Fully Loaded drew about as much as the Rock/Hunter Iron Man Match did. Granted, Fully Loaded was kind of a "three-pronged" show with Taker/Angle and Triple H/Jericho too, but this idea that it was all Rock and Triple H is a bit of a WWE revisionist myth. Benoit was in the Unforgiven main against Rock, Undertaker and Kane too, and that got over 600,000 buys, which is phenomenal for a PPV of that stature. Yeah, Triple H/Angle was a big program for that too (and burst the bubble a bit with the disappointing ending), but Benoit was up there in the upper mid-card/main event delivering in spades. Rock was obviously 2000 MVP, and you also had Cactus Jack, Triple H, Undertaker's return, Austin's presence looming, Jericho and the rise of Angle, the crazy Ladder Match triangles and even Rikishi being fun. But Benoit is kind of unfairly left out at as a significant player in 2000. Truthfully, probably the most "underrated" guy in 2000, just based on what he actually did, how effective it actually was, and how it's remembered as mid-card stuff when it really wasn't, by and large.

* Benoit/Angle was such a great WWE Title match at the 2003 Royal Rumble, and while it's obviously the Rumble, and the title match "doesn't matter," the match itself was phenomenal and changed the perspective on Benoit. He went from being potential to being a guy that everybody wanted to root for. After Raw had had a turgid year, eyes were on SmackDown, and the show got 585,000 buys, which was lower than the previous two years, but actually better than the 2000 Rumble, and marginally better than the one Batista won.

* Yes, you get to WrestleMania XX vs. WrestleMania 21 and the Backlash PPVs, and you've got a direct comparison that favors Batista. I'm not going to argue against that. But also consider the feeling of each Mania. Yes, XX was "special," and did have huge matches, but going into WrestleMania 21, things felt more "positive." There were obviously going to be crowning moments. The end of Triple H, the rise of Cena, the Money in the Bank had me excited (which Benoit was part of), and Michaels/Angle was so much fucking fun and shat on the build for anything heading into WrestleMania XX. The build for Mania 21 was just way better, in my opinion. Even the promotion for 21 felt "energized." XX was "the 20th WrestleMania." Oh, and here are some big matches, but they've been quite haphazardly thrown together, and also Brock and Goldberg are both probably leaving. Am I making excuses? Yes. But there was definitely a different feeling going in to WrestleMania XX than there was WrestleMania 21. One felt like things would emerge from it, whereas the other felt like things were wrapping up, in a sense.

* When it comes to the Backlash stuff, one was Batista vs. Triple H, in a follow-up grudge fight to a cathartic changing of the guard, and the other one was Benoit vs. Kane in the semi-main. Just throwing that out there.

Batista is definitely a success. This is actually a toughie. I was as excited as anybody about him kicking Triple H's ass at Mania 21. I was worried that he wouldn't have legs, and he did get stale, but he was a top guy for as long as he was around, and did spend several years at the top. Not all of them raging successes, but easily up there with Cena in terms of his importance. He was the A2 guy. That's a great position and when he turned heel, it reinvigorated him just as he was leaving. Maybe he could have done even more? A few more years at the top holding fort and there might be more stats to support him. But I think for him to beat Benoit, those spikes need to be much higher. He's not exactly Goldberg doing 9.buttfuck ratings and drawing massive PPVs when no one else could. He was just a WWE style guy that got a good push, it worked, he was a player, then he went away.

Now, if Batista came back for that speculated full-time run? Given his position in Hollywood now and the fact that it'd be nice to have a fucking man in the house, I can see him actually being hot. Like, he immediately jumps into that league with Brock, Cena and Reigns of guys that people are actually paying attention to in the casual sense. With the right push against the right opponent, him busting his ass, a successful title reign that helps things feel credible and fresh? Those are more achievements into the portfolio that strengthen an already great case for Batista. But there are two ways of looking at it right now:

1. Batista was a legit WWE main eventer, and whenever that happens, no matter how slumped business is, you've got consider those points ahead and he was a "star," whereas Benoit was a mid-carder who got the belt and it didn't exactly work out.

2. Benoit actually had a very significant mainstream North American wrestling career where he mattered far more than a lot of people, looking to protect their own significance and ego, give him credit for, and while he was never the A1 guy, and maybe couldn't have ever been, was far more important in the overall presentation and success of WCW during its upswell and the WWF during its hottest year. Luck? Could anyone have done? Probably not, really, because Benoit was actually a really, really great professional wrestler, and someone that helped bounce out the entire product by being pavlova while everyone else was steak.

When it comes to "Better Wrestler," I think that drawing power is absolutely crucial. But Benoit's New Japan stuff is going to have significance 50 years from now, whereas Batista's WrestleMania 21 win might even be seen as trivial. Benoit had a long career of not just being a good mid-card wrestler, but arguably the best technical wrestler in the world and someone that you always had to keep an eye on because he could change the game at any point in time. I think "Better Wrestler" is subjective enough to take that potential, history and perspective into equation.

I'm not just saying Benoit because his matches were more to my cup of tea and he was around for a long time and got the World Title twice and that closes enough of a gap with a real star. I'm saying that Benoit was really a generation's star through performance. And ultimately, when I'm deciding this thing, I look at who I would rather want on my roster. And when it comes to a choice between Hulk Hogan and Chris Benoit, I obviously go Hogan, because I want money and attention. But when it comes to Batista and Benoit? I'm seriously thinking I'd go with Benoit, because he's not going to get me more attention than Batista out the gate, per se, but I'm going to choose other powerhouses or draws over Batista, for example (say, Brock, Cena, Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc.), so Batista's not the best in that role anyway, so I'm really casting an A2 or B1 role, and I'm going Benoit in that position, because of his skill, legacy, history, and proficiency in that station.

TL;DR:

* I think Benoit was a better upper mid-card wrestler/occasional main eventer over the course of a significant career than Batista was as a main event guy over a shorter and less...remarkable career?

Batista may have had better spikes, but Benoit was dependable even during high-wire situations, despite what people think about him being "vanilla." And I don't think Rock vs. Batista necessarily draws more than Rock vs. Benoit. But I do think that Batista vs. Jerry Buttfuck is going to draw more than Benoit vs. Jerry Buttfuck. Does that make sense? Batista is inherently a bigger star, but Benoit can work with guys who draw money as well as Batista can, when he stops mattering to a certain point.

I will say that if Benoit was never over-pushed and just remained the midcard title workhorse I probably wouldn't be as down on him but it's tough to ignore. If we're putting them in perspective though then yes, Benoit was better at his role than Batista was at his. I just don't think his role was ever as big of a deal. I forgot about the stuff in Japan. I think you overrate him elsewhere though. I don't think he was as important to WCW during the NWO run as you remember. Even in keeping eyes on the product, he was just one of many guys putting on quality matches on the undercard and the importance of those matches in making people stick around is debatable. I also remember thinking the feud with Rock for the title had him seeming out of place. It was really a Rock vs Shane feud with Benoit playing the part of the hired gun. Except he didn't have the intimidation factor to pull it off and it was odd.

Also the Backlash main event for Benoit was a WrestleMania re-match, too. The Kane stuff came later.

Noids argument is pretty strong

I'm also of the mindset that the ability to put on a good technical wrestling match is completely useless if you don't have an engaging personality/character/aura about you that makes me invested in the outcome. So regardless of where it is on the card, I'll take the guy with the personality and sub-par wrestling ability any day.

It's the "good B player vs the average A player" argument that's come up before in these. I can see where he's coming from but, in this situation, the fact that they were put in identical positions within a year of each other makes it tough not to compare when judging who did their job better.

Crossface Chicken Wing/Tazzmission/Asuka Lock

You raise a good point with that over-pushed thing, but just to flip it, maybe a bigger problem is that he wasn't pushed harder sooner? By the time you get to WrestleMania XX, Benoit has already been, somewhat, typecast as one of those WWE mid-carders, and it did kind of feel like an honorary mention win. A lifetime achievement award, if you will. When Batista ascends, he's relatively young in the business (although not in age), is fresh, and is kind of a "a new hope."

The way WWE presents stars is important too, because Benoit was never "theirs," whereas Batista feels like one of those "WWE prototype" wrestlers, and that is always going to skewer how fans who get used to how the WWE presents people, even if it's not always strictly true. Benoit doesn't feel like a guy they were ever behind, so it's easier to just throw him in the "didn't draw" basket, when he actually never really failed. People kind of bought him at whatever level, even if they did buy into Batista more when it happened, and it felt like a better "WWE fit" instead of "bizarro land."

I appreciate that I am somewhat arguing hypotheticals here. The mere suggestion that Benoit could have been more obviously means that he wasn't. But if there were certain people willing to stay out of his way a bit, and they weren't so insecure about his talking (which did suck, although he did have charisma), then maybe he actually means a lot more with a harder push, and then when you need to push him hard, it's not weighted by years seeing him with soft pushes.

I may not be making myself completely clear on the WCW/WWF stuff: I get that it was never truly about him, but he always felt like that rising star, or an emerging talent, or one of the best in the world. It's not really like the mid-carders today where you kind of think "Sami Zayn could be a lot more." Benoit felt like he champing at the bit almost every time he went out there. Upper mid-card programs that stole the show, put into top factions, depended on to be that wrestling heel (or babyface) that kind of floats the show.

He never really seemed like a turn-off until they actually decided to change gears with him in the twilight of his career, and even then, the different wasn't exactly gangbusters. If we were talking the drawing potential between Benoit and say, Ultimate Warrior or Goldberg, then I'd have a lot more trouble making this argument. The gap is too wide to ignore. But with Benoit and Batista, it's more "the journey was more important for Benoit, so the destination was slightly more underwhelming than it was for Batista." But I do find it hard to say that Batista meant more for wrestling, because odd-feeling or not, Benoit was involved in significant stuff at a time when it was making huge money, whereas Batista was involved in more significant stuff at a time that's probably not going to be remembered as golden years.

In many ways, the argument for Batista is kind of based on potential too, because he looked like he could have been a huge conventional wrestling star, but he really just ended up being a WWE Main Eventer.

I get where you're coming from, and I think we see each other's points, but I think Benoit was a better B-player than that, and it was pretty apparent he could play A at certain times. That's where we're really disagreeing, and it just comes down to your opinion of Benoit.

Fuck the draw, I'm picking who's better.

I refuse to use this as evidence. Raw ratings don't matter because Batista was on Smackdown, Show me the smackdown numbers

Anyone who likes Chris Benoit should be BANNED