I don't see how Dunn would 80 RBIs if he was on the Red Sox if he was batting .240 but I guess so.

They don't pick the all star off talent either, people are going to look at all the assists Manny has and take that into account. He may have a better arm but so what, Manny has more assists this year.

So I would make arm a wash this year atleast. Meaning they would be tied. If it wasn't Mannys little first half slump this year with his BA it wouldn't even be debateble. Also RBI numbers can misleading but you can't just totally erase them and say they are worth nothing. I like how Manny is known for HRs and RBIs while Ichiro is known for singles and stolen bases so you just totally erase his RBI numbers since the people infront of him are good. For the majority of the year he was batting 3rd anyways, so he had Damon (who does get on base) and Renteria who isnt exactly tearing it up this year infront of him. Not to mention Manny has 2 grandslams already this year, a ton of 2 out RBI, and a higher batting average with runners in scoring position - gotta take clutch hitting into account here.

Yes the Red Sox are 15 times better than the Mariners, but Manny shouldnt be penalized for that. Its not his fault the Mariners don't know how to spend money.

Oh no, they know how:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...2002221109.jpg

Even if arm is a push Ichiro still takes 3 of 5, either way you can't argue that Manny is a better all around player than Ichiro. It's not like any of the morons who vote look at defense but all I'm saying is Ichiro is a more well-rounded player and he deserves to be a starting outfielder for the American League. It isn't Mannys fault the Mariners suck and it isn't Ichiros either. But thats cool that you had to take a cheap shot when I'm not attacking you and trying to have a civilized debate.

Yeah Sexson only had 18 homers at the break. CHOKE JOB. If you hadn't noticed (which I'm sure you haven't because I don't think you even watch baseball) Beltre is starting to hit. Every single hitter who goes from NL to AL has a decline in numbers, the AL is just better. Nobody expects Sexson to hit 45 again. Nobody expects Beltre to hit 45 again.

http://www.derok.net/derok/images/sp...20playoffs.jpg

39-48

Way to go, you spent millions of dollars to sit in the cellar. Stupid me, I thought they were really helping your team.

So bringing in 2 big players is going to make a team win? Look at our pitching staff and all the rookies we have. Moron.

Ichiro over Manny... Manny over Ichiro.. That's a great debate. Both players are super valuable and if I had to choose one... well it would depend on what type of team they'd be going on.

Manny is clutch, no doubt about it. He normally hits for a better average than he has this year. And his power is as good as anyones'. Ichiro is the best hitter in the league, he's not far behind his record breaking pace of last year. Speed, he's got tons of it and his defensive abilities are awesome.

Sexson is doing exactly what, if not more than they expected. Beltres been a bust SO FAR, but his #'s are climbing. Now no disrespect to the Mariner's front office, but they shouldn't have signed Beltres for the amount of money they did, because I don't think he's worth it. What Seattle needed and still needs is top a starter. They keep placing too much hope in Franklyn, Pineiro, Meche and Moyer

Is Manny better all around? No. Manny isn't a wizard in the field. Ichiro is a better all around player because he can field it a lot better than Manny. Ichiro is a better "all around" player than Ortiz too though and I would much rather have Manny or Ortiz on my team instead of Ichiro. I'd much rather have a guy with 22 homeruns, 80 rbis, 2 grandslams than a lead off hitter with a .311 average and 20 stolen bases at the break.

I guess it's really a toss up but I just think Manny is a bigger impact player. He he is having a down year with the average but he usually he puts up a great average with great power numbers. He is one of the best RBI guys of all time but I guess those don't matter because his team is good.

Don't get all teary eyed though, that wasn't a shot at you personally. That was a shot at everyone who thinks teams win just because of their money. You have to know what you are doing with it to be successful, you can't just throw it around like idiots - I agree with you about players going from the NL to the AL though. Look at Renteria.

So Sexson has been doing well, Beltre is coming around, your team isn't winning. I don't know what point you are trying to make.

"Hey, look at how shitty the rest of our team is and it makes these high priced veterans justified."

I didn't mean for you to take it so personally, but the Mariners were obviously planning for this year to go differently then it has. I call that a failed business venture.

As for Latrell Sprewell.

1. I am not denying that the Timberwolves poorly spent their money.

2. Sprewell and Cassell actually did win for a year, just like they were supposed to. Nobody promised it would last.

Nobody expected the Mariners to win the AL West. Obivously I didn't expect them to be this bad but it's not like they have a team of all stars and still suck coughnewyorkmetscough. I don't know if you saw the team last year but they were unbelievably awful, they weren't a team that was one or two pieces away from being a contender. You post a picture of Beltre and Sexson as an example of money not being spent well, so I guess by your logic that any team that sucks that signs 2 big free agents is misusing their money if they aren't immediate contenders. Beltre and Sexson were both signed to multi-year deals, they weren't brought in for 1 year to try to do something like the Yanks always do. This is a long term project, Seattle was not built to win in 2005 and no one here expected them to