:lol:

Sorry, that's a total load of shit.

Correct.

I think we have differing opinions on what "paying dues" means.

I see paying dues as people needlessly having to be on the botttom of the card and wait their chance even if they have the skills.

And yes, I never said stars shouldn't be on TV is they don't have the skills. However some are capable of becoming skilled, and are ready to be on TV very quickly. I see no need to hold them back.

Paying dues in my eyes is earning the right to call yourself a wrestler, to be at the top of the business. Not having it handed to you on a plate because being at the top is a special thing that only a handful of people do and not be handed to someone who has no respect for the business or the rest of the workers.

I agree with ya here

People who won Tough Enough should pay their dues, a guy like Cena who already has by being on the indys then stuck with no gimmick for a couple months. Brock never did really but he caught on fast enough.

To me, I equate the idea of "paying dues" to that of a regular job. Typicallly in a day to day job, if the average joe pays their dues (as the term seems to be defined here) works hard, gives his all, and keeps his mouth shut, they rise up the ladder due to sheer experience; i.e. Mick Foley. Then there is the people who have just "got it", very bright people who with either natural innate talent or attractive personality catch on early and catapult to the top; i.e. Kurt Angle.

Everyone pays a certain amount of dues; some necessarily more than others as they need that developmental experience to get there, and others who take less time to do so because of their natural talent or attractive personality.

And just like in any job, there are the people who are continuosly being political, manipulative, and backstabbing; wielding their acquired influence to rise up by keeping others down. We know of those in our own work lives who do this. I'm sure you can think of a few in the wrestling business, past and present who do this.

All in all wrestling can be like any other business. "Paying your dues" is only one aspect of the whole package.

Just felt the need, and no, this really isn't part of the overall "argument", but when you mention Kurt Angle not paying dues, I mean, the guy was an Olympic gold medalist and even then, he started out with dark matches for at least a year or two.

I didn't say he DIDN'T "pay dues", just that his sheer natural talent and awesome ring personality carried him further earlier on than someone who had less pure talent, look and personality and thus had to "pay" more in terms of time put in to gain the necessary experience in order to rise higher.

Just like any other job.

Yeah...When you've got qualifications, you tend not to get an entry level job.

Exactly! :) :y:

Shutup Pepsi Man.

Go suck Undertaker's penis.

I mean seriously, he sounds like he's Mark Calloway or Bradshaw or something. One of those dumbasses who can't wrestle, yet believes you have to come up the hardway.

:lol:

Moderator Newstead. :D

And the only reason they believe it is because of the fact that they HAD to...

Not like Bradshaw could EVER get by on his wrestling skills...

Its the classic The Brawler VS The Technical Wrestler philosophy; with the typical brawler stating that only brawlers have "paid their dues". To me, its like a less educated working grunt who has been in the job for years who feels resentful as he is being upstaged by a young, College educated guy who he perceives as starting at his level.

I think guys like Chris Benoit and Bret Hart would take exception to that attitude because they've paid their own form of dues. Where the hell does Bob Holly think he can get off taking it upon himself to make a young guy learning the ropes (as it were) "pay" because "I had to"?

Thats just arrogance and a little peevish.

Pretty much completely agreed.

I don't know what else to add, I just think it's absurd to hold everyone to the lowest standard.

Um...I'm pretty sure Hart and Benoit "paid their dues" even the way asshole Holly talks about it. And they did take lumps, lol.

DUNGEON ANYONE?

Even the most technical wrestlers had to sleep in cars and b.s. like that, they just don't make you hear about it everyday because they aren't a bunch of wannabe hardasses.

lol, I can't wait til Holly gets upset that Angle didn't pay his dues.

btw Pep, you are still an idiot.

The fact is that times change. Today's world is sped up, and sometimes, that means skipping out on training you could have really used.

Basically, for me, it comes down to this: Everyone needs to develop and train, but the amount varies. If you're a natural, you can train a little and get your basics and jump right in. If you suck, you might have to spend years in the minors. A quick analogy: baseball. Mark Prior, arguable the best college pitcher ever, spent a few months in AA and AAA ball before getting called up halfway through his first year in the pros. He's turned into an ace. Obviously, he did not have to languish for years in the minors.

On the other hand, there are 27 year old rookies who really paid their dues but obviously were benefitted by all those years of experience... people who would not have been as good without it.

Now, a complete free ride should never occur. Obviously, if someone wins Tough Enough and is immediately on the show the next day feuding with some midcarder, that's unnacceptable. BUT THAT HASN'T HAPPENED! I agree that the TE people still need more training, practically all of them, but at least they didn't get completely free rides.

So it's a balance. Not everyone needs to "pay his dues." But some people need only to pay a little bit and then jump in.


As to Pepsiman's question about Brock botching the SSP... even if he was a five year veteran, he still might have done the same thing, simply because at the spur of the moment, sometimes your brain misfires. Heck, don't tell me that Benoit NEVER botches a move now. Even sometimes, he's bound to do some small slip-up.

Not to mention that the Shooting Star Press is something Brock had done numerous times with success...Just not on TV.

but yeah. If he had paid his dues, that wouldn't have happened, because people who pay their dues don't botch moves...

You know, like Chris Jericho's never done a bad Lionsault...Rob Van Dam's never injured anyone...And Bob Holly'sd never been hurt by his inability to take a move...

Oh wait, both times were up against talentless people...Who hadn't paid their dues...Dammit!

shit on all y'all!. Hardcore is the man! I've said this before. If it was someone else, there would be no discussion.

And, uh, why IS that?

If it was a beloved wrestler instead of someone who has spent 98% of his career in the undercard, no one would be wishing death upon him like CyNick.

rabidwolverine can see into the hearts of men...

Since his argument would only work on paper anyways.

Hardcore Holly. Is not. The man.

And why do you think he is not "beloved"?

Nah........couldn't possibly be anything he did to make himself look like a cock.......

Not at all...:shifty:

Or his lack of talent...

His attitude...

His injury record...

et al and etc...........:y:

I'd pretty much run out of stuff there anyways.

Although he MUST be the goods. After all, he paid his dues...

Anyways, I've pretty much made all of my points. I just wanted to clarify the bit about Angle.

As for Brock and the SSP, sure, he's done it successfully before, and sure, other people have botched other things before...but the main event of WrestleMania is the most important match of the wrestling year, and I've never seen such a visible botch.

The saddest bit was that neither man being 100%, they couldn't even cover for it too well.

Anyway, Newstead, shut the **** up if you're not even going to contribute to the topic. This isn't casual and our near-year-old "feud" you have going has no place here.

"The saddest bit was that neither man being 100%......"

That says it all right there. At least they have the excuse of being injured while preforming and still BTW, put on one helleva match. And when you shoot for the stars (pun :p) to make such a high profile match at such a high profile event more memorable (somewhere Bob Holly will probably NEVER be) things MAY botch, which unfortuantley they did.

Bob Holly will never be put in such an enviable position for a high profile spot like that to potenially botch because Bob Holly will NEVER deserve it. Or earn it.

Sorry man. :(

Or have the abilioty to be worth the risk.

I grant that neither man was 100%. In that one sentence, I was stepping totally out of this argument, and reflecting on that moment in wrestling history.