So is Steve Austin but nobody would bitch half as much if it was him.

Because Steve Austin is an established SUPERTSTAR.

It's your sunny attitude that makes you so desirable to converse with; you know that, right?

Also, had Punk been given more than JBL to beat on, I'm sure he could have looked plenty strong. And taking the title off of him, even in the ridiculous Scramble match, would have made him look stronger? Also, Jericho's match with HBM did make him look pretty tough. And his title win made him look like a fucking weasel. So, he's a resiliant, sneaky heel...and that's bad?


Don't get me wrong; I know Punk's title run has been less than stellar, to say the least. But I'd hardly call it a failure, because it gives him something to build on down the road. I'd definitely say it gave him a solid base to work with, and if that's considered failure, then I think we need to take a moment and define our terms.

It drew no money. He wasn't main eventing shows. He wasn't taken seriously. You make the base before you put him on top. A top without a solid base crumbles no? Failure. Bottom line.

And you wanna look at your own attitude before you comment on mine.

My attitude toward you is apathetic at best. Nothing to worry about.

As for Punk's title run, I'd hardly say he wasn't taken seriously. Doing him differently, even as an experiment, does not make him a failure because, as I said, he now has the base upon which to build. I see parallels in his first run to Edge's, and Edge is now one of the top heels in the company. I understand your perspective, but I think the judgement call is a bit overzealous.

Hang on BDC, are you telling us you're not happy with jericho actually winning the title? Wow, i'm so shocked.

Your bitching about jericho is so boring now.

Worried? I don't think so. Edge's first run doesn't parallel this at all. He was the #1 heel and was being pushed as so against the top guy in the company. And he drew on top.

Ok fair enough, but i think this is good for cm punk. he now can feud with orton/his stable(assuming it forms) and then have a better run with the title next time.

I don't think anyone is saying the kick in the head made him "look good". They're saying that taking a 4 on 1 beat down was a good excuse to take him out of the match, and that losing his title would have been the bragging rights of JBL, wether he won or not, for calling Punk a fluke. If he had lost, cleanly or otherwise -- even though "cleanly" might be hard to define under the rules of said match -- then his title reign is capped off by the naysayers being right and any momentum he'd had would be DOA.

This way, he has a reason to gun for Orton -- a former champion himself -- and go over him. This will start to give him solid credibility without keeping him wrapped up in the title scene and drying him up on fan energy for the duration. It does make sense, when you really look at the big potential picture.

Am I saying it's a perfect situation? Absolutely not. But I definitely see the value in the process and the justification in rthe booking.

How does this make sense? It would be okay to bitch about Michaels or HHH not dropping the belt in the ring because they are established stars but it wouldn't be for Steve Austin because he is an established star?

Anyone that can help me out here please stick your answers on a postcard.

This man gets it.

1. Useless alpha male post. :y:

2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.

1 - Get new material.

2 - Check the ratings and PPV buys when he was on top.

Maybe I'm the idiot here but I think the whole point of making a star is the make money with him immediately. Not hopefully months down the line. You build him BEFORE you put the belt on him. Only Bret Hart went from mid card to main event and stayed there because they booked him strong when he was on top. Everyone else who made money on top was booked to be a top star BEFORE they got the belt.

If he was booked as a strong champion, we wouldn't be having this arguement.

A lot of people around here comment on things they haven't seen. I'm almost convinced most of the people shitting on this haven't seen the PPV.

I meant hurt in a metaphorical sense. Jericho is obviously physically hurt, but he still had the gall to go out there and win the World Heavyweight Title, albeit in a sneaky way. If that doesn't eat up Shawn Michaels and cause him to come back and want a title match, then I'll agree this is shitty booking.

CM Punk didn't look strong during his reign, so the WWE took the belt off him in a way that allows him to come back and say that he was cheated. I think they are definitely jumping the gun with this Steel Cage Match stuff, and that Punk should take a month or so off, and cut some promos hyping his return and how much he hates Orton, and how much he wants to prove he is the true World Heavyweight Champion.

I do like strong champions, but I don't think Jericho is exactly looking weak right now. He beat CM Punk cleanly in non-title competition, and at The Great American Bash he has a match-stoppage victory over Shawn Michaels. Granted, the same thing happened to him at Unforgiven, but he proved he's a tough motherfucker by going out there with his wounds, being a smart guy, and pulling out the title win despite it all.

Besides, with heel champions, the money is in the chase. People pay to see a good heel champion get beat, and with CM Punk, Batista and Shawn Michaels all in line with shots, I'd say there are great legs on this.

Yes, you really fucking do. People aren't grasping how sick the beat-down on CM Punk was, and assume he just took a few punches to the head and was out. He got killed with a kick that has killed legends. You also need to understand how the Scramble Match was also presented on the Jericho front, and you need to have seen HBK's promo to fully comprehend the implications of Jericho winning.

No, you have been told. You are just too stupid to take it in. Like in the Q&A forum when you asked about clean champions, got about five answers and said "no, that doesn't count."

It makes Punk look good for the following reasons:

1) He never got pinned, submitted, counted out, disqualified, knocked out or bled out to lose the World Heavyweight Title. He lost the title because he was screwed over by influences outside of professional wrestling competition.

2) Fans of CM Punk can maintain that Punk would have kept on surviving as champion if it wasn't for Orton. This intensifies their feud, and saves the comeback taunt of "well, Punk lost the match." He didn't lose the match.

3) If CM Punk had wrestled in a hard fought bout, and lost, he'd look like he has his entire title reign -- he'd look like an afterthought, and as someone that couldn't get it done. He'd be just another guy that won and lost the title. This way, Punk never lost the title.

This is a logical decision because:

1) It puts over Orton's eventual heel stable as a force to be feared. They can make or break the careers of individuals in the WWE. It positions them against a popular face character, and it creates a real interest in seeing them stopped, instead of them just being a bunch of young guys people don't like together.

2) Which feud, all preconceptions aside, should be fought over the World Heavyweight Championship: CM Punk vs. Randy Orton or Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels. If you said Punk vs. Orton, you're living in a fantasy world. Jericho and Michaels are two of the most entertaining performers not only in the world today, but arguably in professional wrestling ever. This decision allowed them to do the switcheroo with the feuds and their priority on RAW.

3) SmackDown! has Triple H as the WWE Champion, and although the plan was to make SmackDown! look stronger, with a new champion like CM Punk at the top, RAW has been looking less and less like the flagship. With the hottest program in the WWE being fought over its World Championship, the brand suddenly regains a lot of its glory and prestige.

4) This creates a long build for CM Punk to eventually regain his World Heavyweight Championship, which will hopefully lead to an epic pay-off that could make the WWE some cash. His flash title win gained interest, but now they get to milk the slow burn.

5) Putting the World Heavyweight Championship on Chris Jericho, a performer who has successfully re-invented himself, and been doing some fantastic work for the company, can help boost morale because it shows the WWE rewards good performances. Giving The Brian Kendrick his due is a similar ideal. It's almost like how WCW used to give bonuses each week to the guys who had the best match.

Have the ratings even come out yet?

I agree that Punk should have been booked stronger as a champion, but the fact is he wasn't. If he had lost the World Title in a conventional sense, it would have helped no one. Like Afterlife, I'm not saying this is the best thing ever, but it's certainly not "shitty."

+CM Punk will get more over as a face for this. He can then re-chase the title with BUILD behind him.

+Chris Jericho is the World Heavyweight Champion.

I mean, who really gets hurt in this scenario? The biggest bitch in all of this is really Kane, who got pinned twice after a single Spinebuster from Batista.

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They do care about ratings. That's the whole point. If it was just for entertainment for a few people, put the belt on Rory McAllister or something. I'd get a kick out of it. Not many others would but it doesn't matter.

Ok you got me on that one. One more notch for your "wrestling fans are stupid" belt.

Nah it's ok to be wrong. Just stupid to refuse to believe a fact.

Yes, but the difference is, Edge had been through various high level feuds and had numerous title shots already. If I recall correctly, he even had a title shot at a PPV as well as having the MITB. He then even had the returning Matt Hardy storyline, even with the MITB being put on the line in a match.

Punk had none of that on his resume. Feuding (and losing regularly to) Chavo Guerrero & John Morrison is not even in the same league.

They blew their load on Punk way way too soon. I would have liked to see this 'undeserving' thing being based around the MITB contract rather than the title. The joke was, he was still losing matches but not looking particularly bad not long after Mania. They started having him stalking the champions at the PPV's - that worked.

Then he won the title, they wrote him exactly as the others described - a lucky, transition champion who would lose it at the first oppotunity. He should have beaten Batista, clean or not - that would have worked. Much like when Jericho first beat Rock with a steel chair to win the 'big one'.

This upcoming feud with Orton could be great, as long as Punk drops the smiley jumping around thing and gets vindictive.