Don't forget that everyone is simply obsessed with him.

Said like a true mark, King.

Ratings and demos mean nothing for wrestling

The NHL does lower ratings and demos than Dynamite on the same Network but has $100 million dollar in advertising. It's a "legacy" brand. The WWE is inching towards being that. Stephanie McMahon does not get NEARLY enough credit for all her work changing the perception of the company in the business world.

That’s a really long-winded way of saying you can’t do those things. We’re in the ratings thread, we’re discussing ratings. I have asked you a direct question and you’re avoiding it.

I will continue to actually stay on topic and explain my rationale even further. When you have a beloved babyface that people actually want to see, it can be detrimental to that audience to transform them into an intended antagonist.

Bryan Danielson in AEW is on a much smaller scale, but it was stupid to turn Austin heel at Mania 17. It was stupid to turn Goldberg heel. It was stupid to turn Ric Flair heel in 1999. Sometimes the wrestler in question is a tremendous performer in that heel role, but people don’t necessarily want to see it at that point in time in that particular context. If you are a fan of Bryan Danielson, seeing his presentation in AEW, no matter how good he is at portraying smugness or controlling a match, can be really fucking jarring.

That’s not the only factor. It’s one of many. The silly wrestlers that undermine the sincerity of your product are another — especially when they contrast to things you want to be taken sincerely. The overexposure of stars by having them wrestle so long almost every week is another. The choice of their opponents are another, because the outcomes are foregone conclusions, they challenge the credibility of the stars you’re putting them against, and they are drawn out attempts to milk drama from a place you cannot milk it from effectively. There’s also just so much wrestling that people are going to prioritize and/or fall behind then realize they don’t care.

And the explicit content is another. Some people may not like swearing because they’re religious. I didn’t say that was the only reason, so I’m not sure why you’re holding onto this like a “gotcha.” It could also be that they just don’t like swearing around their kids. Or don’t like hearing a juvenile product. Or it just further embeds the stereotype that wrestling is quite often trashy TV. I didn’t exclude religion from my reasoning, but it’s just blatantly incorrect to represent my point like it was the crux when you were the one who introduced it.

I’m sure it’s fun for you to say I am disconnected from reality to try and dismiss my points without actually arguing against them (although I’m sure you COULD, right?), but it’s quite ironic that you cannot respond to a direct question, which I am going to pose again:

Do you deny that AEW’s ratings are declining? Let’s see who is disconnecting from reality.

Whoa! Are we making fair and logical arguments now?

They mean what a network wants them to mean at the end of the day. They could be used to tout its success, or they could drop wrestling tomorrow citing them as not being sufficient enough. Numbers can be made to do tricks.

To play devil’s advocate, the NHL is a sport where different teams are going to be playing against each other, which means that even though the week-to-week ratings might be lower, you may end up reaching more people over the period of a season. But it’s true that even if that weren’t the case, hockey fans are probably more valuable to advertisers than many wrestling fans. That’s just the perception, and it may be backed up by trends in spending and the ability of those people to influence.

The analysis and interpretation of the ratings by many wrestling fans is irritating though, because as you point out, they don’t mean what wrestling fans make them out to mean. At the end of the day, a network is going to care more about the advertising revenue than they are that specific number. If a show that gets 650k, a demo of 0.28 or whatever, is more profitable than a show that does double that, having 1.3 million viewers and a 0.56 in a demo isn’t necessarily going to save you.

And that’s why people who act like Dynamite is “catching” Raw are missing so much of the bigger picture. Never mind that Warner splits the ad revenue with AEW, WWE is an established brand with much broader international exposure and that is a PG show, which is going to open it up to advertisers in different ways. Plus it’s way more successful with women. And there are way more ways to engage now. YouTube, Peacock, Hulu and even alternate deals (some places order the full shows as well as a one hour version).

I think part of it is a hangover from the Monday Night Wars, where cable was advancing, instead of declining, with wrestling at the forefront and the actual fate of the promotions at stake. But a part of it are wrestling journalists looking for a story in the numbers to always have something to print for an audience that is willing to buy it. And wrestling’s nature is testosterone-driven combat, so it lends itself to a natural “A vs. B” scenario, lol.

Like, when it comes to NXT 2.0 and how “old” that audience is: NXT is still shown on the WWE Network, right? I haven’t kept up to date on that story, but do we know how many younger people are watching NXT 2.0 through their PlayStation or whatever? Yet we have such this clear narrative that Vince and Bruce are “failing” with this thing. For all we know, NXT is more profitable to the USA Network with its PG rating and connection to the WWE brand than Dynamite is to TNT with its higher ratings but with the revenue split. Never mind how valuable NXT 2.0 could be to NBC Universal in general in addition to that.

Way more fun to point and laugh at this product that is testing out greener guys, both behind the camera and in front of it, without overexposing them, and calling it an out of touch failure.

The framing of the ratings drives me nuts, lol. But it is fun to point out that allegedly “hip” product managed to climb to 1.2 million people and is now closer to half of that. I’ll admit to enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. And it’s always a nice feeling when you get proven right about something, lol.

Thanksgiving Eve? Okay, I get that is likely going to be down. People might be on the road. I mean, when wrestling is hot Thanksgiving was a pretty huge night for it. And as many people as you have on the road, you’re also going to have people chilling out in front of the TV in anticipation for a holiday too. But to be DOWN from even that? Can people just admit there is something that this product is or isn’t doing that isn’t connecting with as many wrestling fans as it could be?

If you like it? Fine. But stop telling me it’s “hot” or that it’s growing an audience.

When Noid can’t bring himself to come up with some bullshit that even suits his poor bullshit standards, you know the embarrassment is running deep.

That Survivor Series thread where he basically admitted that he’s irrational and has his own record of events that don’t mesh with the demonstrable events of reality is gonna haunt this poor bastard’s dreams. Just gonna be a lot of:

“You can’t have a rational discussion and here’s the actual proof.”

“YEAH? BUT KENNY OMEGA SUCKS! ARGUE THAT! YOU CAN’T!”

Lol, what the fuck are you even going on about at this point? I haven’t said anything about Kenny Omega in some time. Isn’t he out with an injury? I’m making very clear points you are just ignoring. What on earth has been irrational about any of them? Try and stay on topic.

fan, he's probably going to threaten to put you on ignore.

The survivor series thread just exposed noid as a nincompoop who doesn’t actually bother reading results, which takes 5 seconds of work, and instead reads shit on here and got baited and played into thinking the Rock showed up, posted accordingly, then backtracked and tried to play it off. Fucking glorious really. Showed everybody what a dope he was and why trying to discuss anything with him is a waste of time.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WWE Raw, Monday on USA Network:<br>1,599,000 total viewers<br>P18-49 rating: 0.35 (462,000 viewers)<br><br>Lowest P18-49 for Raw on record.<br><br>�� More demos &amp; analysis: <a href="https://t.co/vLrj7Sjc8N">https://t.co/vLrj7Sjc8N</a> <a href="https://t.co/0KBIqv6nv8">pic.twitter.com/0KBIqv6nv8</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468623439212777475?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This episode was tied for the lowest P18-49 rating for NXT on USA, along with the episode on November 16. The August 3 episode that was preempted to Syfy was lower, with a 0.10 rating.<br><br>NXT ranked #48 among cable originals for the day in the demo, according to Showbuzz Daily.</p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468688338060255236?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No ppv bump for WarGames or the Gargano send-off, yowza

I did something today I haven't done in a LONG time, I looked at WWE's YT page to see how stuff was doing. They used to get several segments from RAW a week that topped a million views (or higher) on YT clips.

Not anymore apparently. Most watched from RAW this week is Edge/Miz at 500k and Becky/Liv at 600k. This is concerning (in general) for wrestling. Not just WWE, but in general. If live viewers drops but social media views go up, it balances out, but if both drop, that's of note. Because so goes WWE so goes wrestling typically.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some examples of what rerun programming does on USA Network in primetime, found on <a href="https://t.co/9xLiLX1oNi">https://t.co/9xLiLX1oNi</a>. Most of these are on less favorable nights than Tuesday and none lower than a 0.14 P18-49 rating.<br><br>NXT has averaged 0.14 since October. <a href="https://t.co/ONsG69DlqA">pic.twitter.com/ONsG69DlqA</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468699235575119874?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

yikes

My spider-senses are tingling...

NXT as it is shouldn't be on T.V. It's more "FCW" ish. It should be Networkk exclusive

I couldn't agree more. If I were USA, I'd be very unhappy with the current NXT product.

It should be a true developmental. Young, green wrestlers mixed with vets to help them alone. Someone like Silas Young, or hell even Gangrel. He still works and is better than he was during his WWE run. Brian Myers would be great. You can still mix in experienced indie guys.

Still not entirely sure how 2.0 is supposed to be better than it was. I suppose the real gauge will be if any of these guys are actually utilized on the main roster, because if not then they put in a lot of work for no real purpose.

It's a tad scummy to thrust a development style show on USA. I'm sure they didn't pay for this version of the product. Such a format is certainly more suited for the Network. A part of me still wants them to revert back to the "black and gold" brand. Then agan, I was never a regular viewer of the show.

I'm with Gertner. It should've stayed on the Network and been developmental. It feels weird when they say guys/girls are being "promoted" from there to RAW/SD because WWE is presenting the show on the same level by airing it on USA.

If you want to keep the feel of the "next generation" like the original show [kinda] was, it probably shouldn't be on TV.

When the show first moved to USA they even moved Charlotte to NXT and had the NXT roster go over Raw and Smackdown in the main event of Survivor Series. It made no sense.

Meltzer reports year to year RAW is down 30 percent in 18-49 and 38 percent in 18-34

That was handed to them by circumstance. The Saudi shenanigans happened, so NXT talent were brought in to fill up SmackDown. This was right around Survivor Series. It was a one-off story, where had they had NXT lose, people would have complained that NXT was buried.

I still don’t see where this idea that having Charlotte go to NXT for a brief spell was loading it up. If they really wanted to load up NXT, they could have used Daniel Bryan, Rey Mysterio, Ricochet, Kevin Owens, Asuka and a whole bunch of other main roster talent that the hardcore audience values more. The narrative that WWE really tried their hardest to stomp out AEW just doesn’t hold up.

As for NXT: The show brings in money from USA. It may not do gangbusters, but they also wouldn’t want to overexpose their young talent. It’s a tightrope act. I’d rather they moved NXT back to the Network and/or Hulu and used the USA slot for a different show. But given that NXT does have a presence on the Network, it’s quite possible the show isn’t the complete failure for WWE and NBC Universal that Meltzer and minds make it out to be.

If they wanted to keep NXT on USA without going back to the boutique hardcore fan servicing product, I think there’s a line between black and gold and 2.0 that they can hit. Mix in young developmental guys with experienced vets, like NXT initially was. I used to love it when Aiden English would wrestle Rob Van Dam and Sheamus. Or that brief stint you got Cesaro down there. But that might be the way they are going with them just promoting the old Black and Gold as babyfaces in the War Games match, apparently. They could be resting the concept and introducing elements of it being developmental before they steer it in a more synthesized direction.

:roll:

So because they had to fill out part of the roster for a show or two with NXT stars on account of the Saudi thing that forced their hand to make an entire invasion angle that culminated on one of their biggest shows of the year and NXT had to win the “war” because otherwise... the internet would have complained?

And why the hell would they have put Charlotte, their biggest female star to a casual audience, on NXT and made her champion at this same time? Was that somehow forced by the Saudi ordeal too? They were trying to make it a legit 3rd brand by presenting it to their main audience as on par with Raw and Smackdown. And it was dumb.

To the large majority of the Raw/Smackdown audience, some indy guys came in, went over the guys they watch every week and then vanished. Lol

There wasn’t really a war, dude. It was a short-term angle. Hence why it ended short-term. Yes, people absolutely would have complained if NXT was sent packing. 100%. People are complaining that they won.

There a bunch of reasons to put Charlotte in a different environment. A fresh use for Charlotte herself. A chance to look at Rhea Ripley. Taking one NXT program and giving it the Mania stage to encourage people to check it out (not a giant marketing campaign to go all-out). I don’t get how someone sees Charlotte in NXT and goes “Holy shit, the WWE are REALLY trying here!” I feel like I’m repeating myself, but it makes no sense. A proper Raw/NXT crossover? Sure. That’d be them hot-shotting both sides. But sending Charlotte to NXT for a temporary spell? No.

The whole idea that the WWE were desperate as shit to stop AEW (And FAILED! Lol!) is an AEW/Dave Meltzer fiction. I heard a YouTube clip from Dave and in the same show he said both that the WWE was trying to load up NXT to destroy Dynamite, and that WWE didn’t promote the show. People want to have their cake and eat it in numerous different ways, because WWE =bad, AEW = good.

Charlotte showing up for a program in NXT is the WWE moving heaven and earth to crush AEW. Cody doing moonsaults off cages in build-ups to PPVs isn’t hot-shotting. WWE drops an angle, it’s “Stupid WWE and their bad storytelling.” AEW does it and it’s “long-term storytelling.” The dialogue is so skewered, and that’s always been one of my biggest problems with it.

The WWE could have had Roman Reigns, Daniel Bryan, Randy Orton and whoever the fuck they wanted on NXT in that slot every week and it would have been fair. Charlotte, The Revival and a one-off appearance from Sasha Banks (who is probably the biggest mover there), is not them taking the gloves off.

Also, can anyone dispute my assertion that it is possible NXT 2.0 does way better than perceived to when you factor in Peacock numbers? Serious question. For all I know, it doesn’t even have a Network presence anymore. But if it does, who is to say that those numbers don’t see it overtake Dynamite in terms of audience? What indicators do we have there?

The drop in audience since the move from black and gold to the 2.0 aesthetic and direction is obviously not preferred. I mean, you’d want to stay steady, maybe even see an increase. But radical changes like that are going to generate attention and then likely cause a disconnect between the previous audience and a new one. Do we know the timeframe placed on this to solidify its own following?

It’s fun to speculate. Believe me, I have so much fun with the AEW numbers every week. But does anyone actually have a clue how well NXT 2.0 does overall, and what its actual value to NBC Universal is?

Didn't Keith Lee have "a good showing" in that Survivor Series match and then disappear back to NXT for months? What a weird turn of events.

Keith Lee may have disappeared back to NXT because he was on NXT at the time.

872k for Dynamite. Very surprised they saw a slight increase from the previous week. Still a very poor number though.

Stuck in the 800s

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">AEW Dynamite last night on TNT:<br>872,000 viewers<br>P18-49 rating: 0.33 (about 430,000 viewers)<br><br>��More demos &amp; analysis: <a href="https://t.co/A77xrNgSgw">https://t.co/A77xrNgSgw</a> <a href="https://t.co/xkEwUW0oIC">pic.twitter.com/xkEwUW0oIC</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1469051814825840640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yes

The Royal Rumble too

Oooooooo


R.I.P

And 499k for Rampy the Show that Tried.

It seems like every wrestling show, minus SD, is in a ratings slump. Not great!

RAW, NXT, Dynamite, Rampage, Impact, MLW all in the mud

^ Last time I looked at MLW ratings since it moved to VICE it was something like 14k viewers. Hopefully they've gone up since then.

Why do you keep mentioning people complaining? Do you actually think Vince put NXT over to avoid the internet complaining? If not then how is it relevant? I’m saying it was a dumb idea. If you think it was done to avoid the internet complaining then it was an even dumber idea. If you don’t think that’s why it was done then what’s your point?

Charlotte heading over at the same time COULD have been for reasons other than trying to legitimize it as a 3rd brand. The fact that it coincided with NXT winning a battle for brand supremacy out of the blue though...

The ratings do not matter because no matter what they get, Tony Khan will brag/spin it, as will the dirt sheet writers on his payroll.

Too much wrestling on TV since NXT moved to Tuesday and Rampage debuted

I think you are right. The market feels oversaturated.

It’s felt that way for a while. Couple that with the fact that “epic” shit has to happen constantly to keep people tuning in and it’s just hours upon hours of “epic” shit that then starts to feel commonplace. And you can’t dial it back.

season one and two of NXT was the best. I miss pro's and rookies, NXT should b WWE'S VERSION of the challenge.

Three Words:

Season Three Kaitlyn :drool:

It won't happen, but NXT reverting to the rookies and pros format would be great.

My point is that the shitty but profitable Saudi deal forced their hand. They felt like they had to use NXT talent around the Survivor Series. That led to them getting used at the actual show. They decided to have them go over instead of “burying” them (as the internet erroneously uses the term).

Charlotte’s NXT run came later. That started with the Royal Rumble, which was 2 months later. I can’t remember if she even went to NXT full-time or was just slumming around Raw sometimes showing up there, or if that started with her NXT Title win or what. But they didn’t really coincide.

Nothing about the Saudi deal forced them to book an NXT vs Raw/Smackdown program for Survivor Series. You’re just saying what they decided to do and using “Saudi deal” as an excuse without explanation. And you still haven’t given a reason why NXT went over other than “people would have complained/erroneously accused them of burying them.”

I said they felt like their hand was forced. Could they have done Daniel Bryan vs. Fandango or whatever the fuck was available on the SmackDown side at the time? Sure, probably. But they had half (maybe more) of their roster over in Saudi Arabia unable to make it back to SmackDown so they used NXT talent (and Pat McAfee in the booth). If they had the talent back, they probably wouldn’t have done it at all.

Once NXT were in it, they decided to put them over at Survivor Series. Was the intent to give them a little boost? Sure, probably. But what were they supposed to do? Have Raw and SmackDown demolish them and send them back to Orlando in a crate? They put some of their guys over because that’s the situation they were in — right, wrong or otherwise. It wasn’t some massive grand plan to make NXT the dominant brand in all of WWE. It doesn’t mean that NXT was forever going to have a heavy presence on either Raw or SmackDown. It was a glorified cameo. And the fill-ins got the wins, which is pretty standard.

It also could have been more about the other shows losing. Not that that went anywhere. But to pretend that the WWE’s mind in this was “NXT must crush AEW!” is very markish.

I remember a time when Noid explained how ratings and wrestling trends worked in South Asia. When I had something to say about it, he suggested that he had friends from the subcontinent. I guess they know more.

Logic loopholes so big could make the titanic sink in a minute flat.

re: NXT going back to being Network-exclusive - it should also go back to being a one hour show. Secondary (or third...dary?) shows shouldn't be two hours.

Tertiary

Actually, you said their hand WAS forced. Multiple times. But alright. So now they just FELT LIKE their hand was forced. The Saudi deal made them FEEL LIKE their hand was forced to have main roster vs NXT matches one night on Smackdown. Not the worst thing in the world. Now make the leap from there to having to do a brand war between the main roster and developmental on a major PPV/Network special.

And once this bad idea train was rolling... While your “demolish them and send them home in a crate” is an exaggeration yes, your developmental guys should not be booked to win a “battle for brand supremacy” over your main roster. Lol

Unless of course you’re trying to push your developmental brand as a legit on-par brand with the rest... Which is dumb... Which is my point.

Maybe... I’m trying a nice approach here though. Lol

This re-re-brand NXT as developmental again has given me a thread idea so I don't have to bury it in this mess.

Yeah. That would also allow them to not have to put guys on every week to fill time. I know they’ll never go back to a traditional developmental system but they should find a nice middle ground between making money off of it and not overexposing guys before they’re even ready for the main roster. Even if the exposure is to a relatively small portion of the main roster audience.

Playing Devil's advocate, I dont think he means the financial deal with Saudi, I think he means the Saudi plane situation. With most of the roster stuck in Saudi Arabia, Smackdown had a very limited number of wrestlers who either did not go on that trip, or got out on a private jet.

Instead of putting on a show with a limited amount of people, they had the NXT roster fill in. The timeframe with Survivor Series coming up was the easiest storyline to explain kayfabe why they were there.

After that, Vince booked them the way he did because that is what Vince wanted to do at the time. It certainly was not a long term plan. All they got out of it afterwards was Keith Lee's surprise Rumble entry, and Shayna and Rhea putting over Becky and Charlotte at Mania.

Holy shit, I was almost about to concede you were right about something, but then I re-read what I said: “My point is that the shitty but profitable Saudi deal forced their hand. They feltlike they had to use NXT talent…” Context is key. ;) My intended implication was that their hand was forced, because they felt like they had to do something. I don’t agree that they HAD to, but that’s still their hand being forced. You’ll argue this black and blue, but that was my point, and this is me clarifying and being “nice” about it. I also went back to see if I have said it multiple times. I do not think I have.

The SmackDown/NXT crossover happened right around Survivor Series. I think this was the second week of November? You do SmackDown vs. NXT then, I don’t see how it is a massive leap to have NXT at the Survivor Series. It goes to follow.

Should Nexus have gone over John Cena at SummerSlam 2010? The intended story could have been that Raw and SmackDown have too many issues and NXT’s unity was what helped them snatch up some victories. In fact, I think that was an element to the story at some point, although I cannot be sure it wasn’t dropped, butchered or made inconsequential. My argument isn’t that the WWE told this story exceptionally well — just that there are many reasons you wouldn’t just swat down NXT on the night besides “WWE IS TRYING SO HARD TO DESTROY AEW!!!!”

NXT could have taken a huge perception blow had they been steamrolled by Raw and SmackDown. And I think if you were being honest about it, you would admit that had that happened, you’d be one of the people here mocking them for it. It’s damned if they do, damned if they don’t with you. Having them go over on one night doesn’t kill Raw or SmackDown off. It could have been used to fuel more stories (not saying that it WAS, just that it COULD have been). It gives them a little bit of a rub. It doesn’t mean that NXT is now the #1 show in wrestling. Once you have them there, it’s the common sense outcome. You don’t bring them up to lose, lol.

Oh dang! He got you there, King fan. Case closed.

If they didn't HAVE to then their hand wasn't forced. You can't have it both ways. And if their hand wasn't ACTUALLY forced we're already starting on a premise of them doing what they want. Even if they felt compelled to use NXT one night against Smackdown guys, that didn't force them to turn it into a major angle for their next big show. They made a conscious decision to run with the angle.

The development guys SHOULD lose to the main roster stars. If your arm is twisted and you absolutely have to book it (WHICH, AGAIN, THEY DIDN'T), you don't put guys who aren't main roster ready over your main roster. It's fucking stupid. NXT was already perceived as the "minor leagues". Putting up a fight but losing to the major league doesn't hurt anything. Unless your goal is to push your development brand as an equal to your main roster. Which is stupid. Which is my point.

And ultimately your argument against that point is...

Another awkward attempt to shoehorn your AEW obsession into a conversation. I literally mentioned AEW 0 times while you've kept trying to argue against an imaginary "WWE WAS TRYING SO HARD TO DESTROY AEW!!!!” narrative. lol

If you look at the ratings was side by side taking into consideration WWE history and AEW history, AEW has blown away anything WWE has ever done by being such a huge success on cable much quicker than WWF was when it first went on USA.

If you felt like your hand is forced, you are going to act like you have to play the hand. You’re arguing semantics and it’s textbook for you, but that is where the conversation stops. You absolutely can have it both ways. A shotgun wedding doesn’t literally need a shotgun.

Of course they turned it into a major angle for their next big show. It was an inter-promotional issue promoted en route to their next big show. They would have been mocked if they had dropped it too.

There are cases where it is fine to push fresh talent. I don’t know if they used people that weren’t main roster ready on the show. I’m not going to go through each name, but I’m pretty sure most of them were fairly experienced at this point and a lot of them would be featured on the main roster within a year.

Whether NXT was or wasn’t perceived as the “minor leagues” and how intentional that was or wasn’t is a completely different argument. But even taking your point at face value, there are contexts where having the minor league go over has benefits — to both the minor and the major. It doesn’t mean they have to be equal. Ultimately, you can see that NXT was not pushed as equal, is not pushed as equal, and probably was never intended to be equal.

That’s what the Wednesday Night Wars were about, bub. That’s the narrative behind WWE trying to push NXT as an alleged monster against Dynamite, putting them over everyone else and loading them up with top drawing talent like Charlotte. It’s why we’re having this discussion. You bring up Charlotte and NXT every time it comes up like that was some sort of power play, lol.

Do you deny that narrative exists?

You’re trying to appeal to emotion. What is shoehorned in about AEW in a conversation about the Wednesday night ratings between 2019 and the end of Charlotte’s appearances in 2020? Lol, get fucked with that sneaky shit.

Anyway, back to ratings instead of derailing another thread with that disingenuous cunt:

Winter is Coming should see an increase for Dynamite and Rampage, but it will be concerning if it does not. You can only run so many “special shows” before they stop being special. And historically, these things have been unable to hook people for any longer period of time.

913k for Winter Dynamite last year. It was earlier and went up against NXT, which got 658k. I somehow doubt we’re going to get 1.571 million people watching on Wednesday. I think we’re probably looking at about 960k people for Dynamite. They’ll call that a win.

"Other stuff is on TV Wednesday, or Dynamite would likely get about 100 million viewers" ~ Dave Meltzer, direct quote

I literally made the point that they tried to push NXT as a third brand on par with Raw and Smackdown.

That is not the same as the “WWE TRIED THEIR HARDEST TO SQUASH AEW!” argument you decided argue against out of the blue.

It’s shoehorned because it’s literally, 100%, clear as fucking day NOT what was being discussed. Not even remotely. Like... literally 0 to do with AEW and the Wednesday night wars. This should be obvious to anyone with a remotely functioning brain. This entire conversation is available for you and everyone to read. Are you just hoping anyone reading this suffers a traumatic brain injury moments before logging on and what you just said will sound smart? Who are you trying to convince with this batshit crazy rationale?

How braindead/delusional do you plan on getting? You’re reaching new levels at a ridiculous rate.

All the rep and honorary king for a day status for anyone who stops me immediately when I try to engage Noid in a rational conversation from now on.

I know a few people enjoy me guiding him down these insane logic holes he goes down but... Goddamn. I gotta break the constant urge to engage with irrational dipshits. It’s an addiction.

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They’ve never promoted it as being on par with Raw and SmackDown. You’re just wrong, lol. Putting them over on a couple of shows before sending them back down into third tier is not the same thing.

It’s not out of the blue. That was the narrative Dave Meltzer and AEW apologists have pushed since NXT went to the USA Network. Are you going to deny that? I don’t need you to say it to point out that the idea that the Survivor Series and Charlotte going to NXT for a cup of coffee were not plans to shoot NXT into unrivalled air. You’ve read the whole situation wrong, and have for ages, way beyond this thread.

Lol, you’re not rational.

The internet is full of people who think the WWE is run so stupidly, but they’re stupider than the company is. You are the epitome of that. If you cannot understand why the WWE may have chosen to supplement its roster while most of them were stuck over in Saudi Arabia, why they followed that to a logical conclusion, and how this was not them going all out, and how this connects to bullshit being spewed about the WWE’s mentality in how they positioned NXT, then you cannot be helped. You’ve started with the conclusion you want and will just try to insult people who don’t agree with you.

Is anyone confused as to how the WWE apparently trying to push NXT as a legitimate third tier brand connects to the Wednesday Night Wars? Anyone? Man, that shit’s so imaginary. Pretending that happened is just irrational. Lol, fuck off.

Good man, drave. Good man.

Your disingenuous ass is going on ignore. You haven’t made a post with any meat on it in some time. And it’s not worth engaging with the baiting tactics and whataboutism.

It took a lot of embarrassing moments for him to finally go with the fake ignore flex.

Regardless, the temptation of the derp interaction is gone. Christmas has come early for fan.

Making up shit to be mad about was xrod's gimmick for a while. He should sue Noid for infringement.

Noid now has half of the wrestling forum on “fake ignore”. In the end, it’ll just be his little echo chamber and Gertner egging him on for the lulz.

People hate hearing a difference of opinion. Without Noid and xrodmuc this forum would be dead.

Lock Jaw and I are relatively critical of the product. Our opinion doesn’t necessarily align with everyone else’s. We are not assholes about it.

Some people hate it so much that they’ll awkwardly try to push conversations to a completely unrelated subject just so they can bitch about it and then shout out “fallacy!” when it doesn’t work like a Goddamn retard.

Much appreciated, Big Man. :y:

Saw an interesting thing regarding ratings in Canada:

You’ve all heard the narrative that AEW does better than WWE in Canada, right? Or that they’re highly competitive. Then you’ll hear that AEW is more viewed in the UK than WWE, but that doesn’t count because AEW is on free-to-air.

I saw someone point out that the WWE has multiple replays of Raw and SmackDown throughout a week. They also have recap shows that air numerous times. AEW doesn’t have anywhere near the exposure, and basically airs once a week. So comparing a single Raw viewership to AEW’s is disingenuous, because presumably those replays do numbers as well, otherwise other things would be in those slots.

If AEW was really doing great in the ratings, they wouldnt need to spin it every week with a different narrative. I laughed out loud last week when Meltzer made a point to brag that AEW won the 25-54 demo in Canada, which is the "most important" Canadian demo.

Holy shit, he did not? Wow.

If these demos were as comparable and important as Meltzer says, why not just go head-to-head with Raw? You know, instead of comparing two different nights of television with different levels of competition? Because we all know what would happen. They have to pick out these weird, obscure and frankly trivial “victories” which have no wider context.

I’ve seen it pointed out that Danielson’s segments are often among the lowest rated on the show. Turns out turning him heel and having him work extended matches with babyface jobbers may have actually been a silly decision after all. Funny that.

Serious question re: Rampage cancellation:

How does that affect Dynamite’s position with WarnerMedia? When they signed their new deal, the impression given was that they were getting their $45 million a year or whatever for Dynamite + a new show. I’m sure Warner have it in there that they can cancel Rampage and just pay AEW less money, but it’s possible that Warner tries to renegotiate the AEW deal and they really give those fuckers the shaft.

There are some big obstacles facing AEW, between Rampage flopping and Dynamite possibly hitting a wall on TBS. They should be making decisions to grow an audience instead of appealing to a dwindling hardcore one that is going to applaud for the most mind-numbing shit.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Go figure, AEW Dynamite was the most-watched wrestling show overall and 25-54 (Canadian key demo) of the week and maybe highest of the year and among its biggest ever.</p>&mdash; Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1466538757830578183?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 2, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

But yeah, he is sooooooooo not on AEW's payroll :rofl:

Holy shit. He knows that is absolute bullshit. But to be honest, I don’t think he even needs to be paid. He’s a complete simp for this company.

The thing is, I’m not even sure this denial is helping AEW at all. As annoying as the narrative is, I think ignoring their problems is going to do a lot more long-term damage than short-term good.

The rest of this page is just gonna be Noid over-posting until it’s buried by the next page and the embarrassment can be hidden away.

Just skip the Noid stuff, honestly shittest opinions on the internet which is a pretty big call.

Only thing worth paying attention for is the day Noid accidentally quotes himself and disagrees with his own shit take... its coming.

Our last line of defense is gone. The king has fallen. What a pity.

What makes my opinions shit, Sting Fan? Oh, that they’re backed up by logic and you can’t argue against them? Fucking drone. You could at least try to make demonstrably wrong points against me before falling apart and turning into a total shit-show.

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Vince Russo and Glen Gilberti called it. Punk and Daniels did nothing for the ratings and were not game changers at all. AEW didn't know how to book them because the owner is a dirt sheet mark sheep. Just wait until the TBS move where the ratings will tank even more and watch the AEW marks trying to come up with more and more excuses for why their 30 min matches don't draw.

They’re right. Mainly Disco (let’s not give Russo credit). Every time AEW has had a spike, the people they attract vote with their remotes. It doesn’t fit the narrative that this is the cool, hip product, but it’s the unavoidable reality — people just ain’t that into you.

I don’t blame Punk and I don’t blame Bryan as much as others (and there are good arguments there). I blame the entire philosophy around this product and what it chooses to surround potential draws in.

When AEW goes to TBS, I think it is going to be a bit of an eye-opener for people. I think that when Dynamite came to TNT, it just replaced a movie or something? Dynamite is going to be knocking back people’s sitcom time. Warner might get some feedback from people about wrestling intruding into their leisure time. AEW needs to be more valuable than a sitcom block. A lot of people are predicting a long-term move into the millions. That number is possible on TNT, but their quality holds them back. TBS is in more homes, but it doesn’t mean more people are going to watch it. I can see the move doing a lot of damage to a segment of the audience and them never coming back.

They’ve got a happy accident with the West Coast coming back. But that does not count for hundreds and thousands of people. Which is sad when you think about the population of it. They’re going to need to bring it when they jump, and I don’t think they know how. Evidence: Their inability to hold viewers after they do something to encourage new people to sample.

a TNARICK & Noid tag team? yes please!

Shittest cunt with the shittest arguments :wave:

Ease up on yourself.