No I just don't think a kid would look at Sting and get behind him, because just about everyone on the roster moves better than him. If they wanted to cheer for a face painter, they would cheer for Balor.

People who were fans of Sting want to see him win because of his legacy, but when you factor in his age and how little he will work, I don't see who on the roster you put him against that would have a big match feel and be willing to put him over. Maybe a guy like Jericho as a one off, but putting him over multiple guys makes no sense to me.

Bischoff said he shut down most of WCWs touring when he started. That would have been when Sting was one of the top guys in WCW.

Sting's real drawing period was the height of the NWO. So at best he would be sharing those numbers with them. And compared to Hunter's run on top, it was a short period of time.

Figuring out a star's drawing ability is murky at best, but like I said, I just don't see it as being close.

You don't have to have him go over multiple guys. He should have had won against HHH to build him then have him put over younger talent. Sting could have great programs with guys like Stardust, Wyatt, and Cesaro to put them over. A kid takes one look at Sting and thinks he is cool, their not going to notice his speed. For you to say kids wont get behind Sting is just dumb.Its sad when TNA books Sting better on his way out than WWE has so far.

Anyone but Hunter

I get it now.

lol oh stuff it. Does Hunter really need it? He's the frigging COO of the company. Come on. Sting with a BIG win over HHH could put over a big talent. If Sting had beaten HHH and lost to Rollins, the win has about a bajillion times more meaning, as opposed to a win in a filler ppv nobody will remember.

Use your head CyNick.

I heard it from a number of sources, including Corny, who actually, you know, WORKED for the guy.

Also, inferiority complex can easily explain the XFL, WBF, WWE studios, etc. He is ashamed to be in the business, and tries to prove himself the head of a media empire.

Also, inferiority complex can why he frames the Monday Night Wars as Vince vs. Turner, when in reality it was Vince vs. Bischoff. Turner didn't even have Vince on his radar. He couldn't see himself getting upstaged by Verne Gagne's coffee go-fer.

Hell, look up the McMyth's podcast HB2K (iirc) posted that was filled with his delusions.

I honestly dont understand why this is an issue.

They had a larger story they were telling that was more important than Sting. That was HHH being the over achieving father figure to Rollins, who sets the bar really high. If you notice, Seth was starting to pass all the "tests". Then when he failed against Roman, you would have had HHH rip into Seth, and Seth would have stood up to HHH to prove he's the man. You cant play out that story if HHH loses to a 50 year old man who has no history in the company.

I believe Cornette made statements giving his opinion on Vince making decisions that he didnt agree with, and therefore made the correlation that Vince makes decisions that are not best for business.

LOL. He's tried on multiple occasions to EXPAND his business to other forms of entertainment. Admittedly those were failures, but it doesn't mean he's ashamed of the sports entertainment indutry, hell, he invented it as we know it.

If it wasnt Turner vs Vince, why did Turner call Vince to tell him he was in the "wrasslin" business? Saying it was Eric vs Vince is an insult to Vince, because Eric didnt own WCW. I dont know if you have ever owned a company, but when you are putting everything on the line, its different than some guy who is just drawing a paycheque. Now, on Ted's side, WCW was a small portion of his overall empire, whereas for Vince it was his everything. Which is probably why Vince ultimately won.

Sorry, Mcmyths? I have no idea who that is, and I certainly have no idea what type of connection they have to Vince to know if they are just another parrot of the Dirt Sheets or actually have some useful information to share.

There were only so many of these, you will run out quickly.

Okay you are legit just a massive troll at this point. McMyths are actual myths perpetuated by the WWE that factually just aren't true. Not reported by the dirt sheets, just shit that doesn't add up. It can be verified just by watching their own product.

McMyth#1) DX "invading" WCW some how was the apex of the Monday Night Wars. Watch it. Nothing happened. Nobody gave a shit. It was a silly crappy angle. And yet, they perpetuate this nonsense in every fucking video about DX. That's not dirtsheet reporting, that's just people using their brains.

If you wish to be an actual contributor to this forum and not have people disparage you, maybe interact like less of a twat, and be smart like you're capable of being.


For now, I am retiring from CyNick world because you talk at me, not to me. Wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're being too much of a knob. Keep in mind I remember your initial run on the forum where you were being a troll then too, just on exactly the opposite end with pretty much the polar opposite bullshit arguments which made no sense then. So pretty much, you're parodying yourself, and it's getting to the point of silliness.

Its about damn time. The money is not in Sting/HHH if your just going to have Sting job. There is more money in jobbing Sting to Taker, Cena, or even Wyatt. HHH could have jobbed to Sting then had Rollins beat Sting to start that tension between the 2. The point is Vince has left money off the table with Sting and you can't deny that. I don't know if he does it on purpose or he has just lost touch but he has a trend of burying WCW guys. Before you spout off about WM20 think about when Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, and Big Show all jumped ship to WWF.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...bazFx77jrYaoYK

Vince only has one ass and you kiss it a lot.

Or, before Vince, wrestling events was only taking in smoky bars and high school gyms. However, even under Vince Sr. they were headlining MSG with Bruno and many territories were holding big shows in sold out baseball stadiums.

Or WM3 was the most heavily attended WWF event of all time. It was actually Summerslam '92 in Wembly.

That is simply nonsense perpetuated by the dirtsheets.

Don't forget the mom and pop shop gimmick that was poached of talent by the evil Ted Turner, even though Vince was buying out territories and poaching talent while loading up for and supporting his new global vision of a wrestling company.

What are you talking about? That just sounds like more malarky put forth by that hack David Q. Meltzer.

80,355 > 93,173? :wtf:

I could be and have been wrong before, but I have often heard claims that WM3 attendance numbers were overinflated.

Best part of this McMyth was WWE supposedly told them to bail if WCW sent Meng after them. Even the WWE feared Meng more than they did WCW.

<font color=goldenrod>WCW really should have just let DX roll into the arena with a fucking tank live on Nitro. Would have ensured 100% viewership for that particular segment.

But the fact that WWE acts like that was the turning point of the Monday Night Wars is comical.</font>

I've explained this to CyNick COUNTLESS times, and he doesn't get it. There are many ways to skin a cat, but CyNick just can't wrap his head around how making money off Sting while that program is there before moving onto Triple H vs. Rollins makes as much sense, probably more, than Triple H beating Sting and basically using him as an enhancement to build to a potentially big match later down the track between two guys that won't even mention Sting in their feud.

EGO.

Hmm, I wonder if any of that is down to HOW THEY HANDLED FUCKING STING?!?!?!

This whole "WWE does shit to dampen someone; LOOK AT HOW DAMP THEY ARE!" bullshit you do, Cynick, is getting boring. Change your gimmick up, man.

They should have sent Meng and Barbarian out there to confront them. Worst case scenario, you lose Meng and Barbarian on manslaughter charges.

As if the cops could arrest them.

Hell , WCW kept Meng around for years because they were too scared to fire him.

The WWE should put out a "Legend of Haku" special on the WWE Network.

<font color=goldenrod>Wonder if Haku could still easily fuck people up to this day.</font>

Now he just scares them into buying a car, even if they were bringing someone else to buy a car.

drastically

CyNick, I'm trying to think more scenarios for you too book. The only thing I can think of now is Montrel. I'm not trying to beating a dead horse just want to see how you would handle it.

So let's go back in time. Will keep every situation the sam. Bret refuses to do the job, and Vince is worried what Bret will do with the title... The only thing that we are going to change you can't stop the match and "Screw Bret." How do you handle the situation?

If you can't screw Bret I guess you let him show up on Nitro with the WWF Heavyweight Championship. Let's see what the CyNick has to say.

Or you have a verbal agreement with him to do it the next night to another opponent. I don't think there was any risk of Bret showing up on Nitro with the belt.

Was it childish that he didn't want to drop it to HBK? Yes. Did he have his reasons not to? Also, yes. But he would have dropped it the next night on RAW to anyone else. It shouldn't have been the big drama that it was, but people love a good drama!

Who would you have the other opponent be on Raw? Couldnt see it being Stone Cold being IC champ but maybe Kane who had just beat Mankind. Kane could have held the title til the next PPV where Shawn takes it off him.

I'll try to carry on without you Dale. It will be challenging, but I must try.

Having HHH lose to Sting hurts Hunter's credibility. Who do you think will work more matches in future Manias, Sting or Hunter?

Are you from somewhere in Great Britain?

Turning point is a stretch, but they were there on WCW turf, and the fans saw them as big stars. So it was something.

Most people on here cant see the larger picture.

Sting vs Hunter at Mania was used to sell future Monday Night Wars programming on WWE Network. Thats why they involved NWO (representing WCW and DX representing WWE). From thats standpoint alone it made sense for Hunter to win, because WWE won the war.

BEYOND THAT, you want to keep Hunter strong because he's going to work with Rollins at some point. And further, the story they were telling between Hunter (the teacher) and Rollins (the student), it hurts the story if Hunter looks weak right off the bat.

I personally dont think there was huge money in other Sting matches. I could be wrong, but the guy was in TNA for years, and its not like TNA ever had a really successful PPV that he was a part of. So I dont see where the evidence is that Sting was big time player. Thats the disconnect with some of you guys, you see Sting on the level of guys like Brock, Rock or Hunter, where I dont think the average fan does.

People will just roll their eyes, so I probably shouldnt bother, but I feel Vince handled that masterfully.

To me, you couldnt let Bret walk out of Survivor Series as champion. I'm sure we have all heard interviews with Bret, and realize he takes the business and his character really seriously. Maybe too seriously. As a result, it clouded his judgment and he acted selfishly and refusing to drop to Shawn in Montreal.

From Vince's POV, you have Bret going to Turner, and you have this big grudge match booked. Standard wrestling booking is when a guy is leaving a territory, he does the favours. It was perfectly reasonable for Vince to EXPECT Bret to put over someone of his choosing. Bret and Shawn were rivals, and if Bret is leaving, you want Shawn to look like the superior talent. Bret acted childish, and refused, so Vince was backed into a corner.

The epic thing was Vince had the foresight to put himself on TV as an authority figure in the angle. This was perfect, because it set up the next decade plus of TV as him as the evil authority figure. Really smart booking, a genius move.

The next night TV was in Canada, whats different between dropping on Sunday or Monday? The issue was dropping to Shawn and in Canada. On both issues, Bret acted unprofessional.

Austin would have been too early. They wanted to build up to Austin winning at Mania. Having him win randomly on RAW would have been very WCW.

That's why I said I couldnt see it being Stone Cold.

I wasnt disagreeing, just piling on the point you made.

I think Vince handled it the best way possible way to especially considering how every turned out for WWE.

I'm doing this in total fantasy world which is going to be unrealistic. I would do Money in the bank/WM 9 style.

I would end the Bret/HBK match in a double DQ, and then I would have someone let's say Owen Hart (it can be anyone I don't care) challenge Bret after the match, and then Owen wins the belt. However he loses it at the next PPV to Shawn, and maybe not that much of the future is changed.

That way everything ends up amicable between Vince and Bret. It's unrealistic, but I think it kind of works.

Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical(basically a trio of gospel preachers) gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true.

In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

How I would have handled Montreal

Austin/Owen have their match as it went down and Bret cuts a promo on Owen saying how he let his entire family and country down. Owen tells him to fuck off and challenges him to put the belt on the line against him right now! Owen wins clean and is the WWE Champion. HBK and Bret then have their match without the title.

HBK wins the title on Raw from Owen. Giving Owen a deserved title reign and respect. If Bret wouldn't job to Owen then he should be the one who died.

They also confirmed (without actually saying it)what we've always known Vince doesn't like ideas that don't come from him no matter how good they are.

We've already addressed this. Cynicks talked to Vince and this is actually what he wanted because he is in fact a man of the people

Minus him trying to be a babyface after it al happened. No foresight but stil smart to go heel when he realized the fans didn't buy him as a face

I think these thoughts from Mick Foley echo our statements. I mean I know Mick is nothing compared to Vince and HHH, and has never accomplished anything in the business. And yeah, I don't think anybody cares about swearing and cussing and attitude era raunchiness but realistically they've killed a lot of the art behind it. I've heard Bautista echo these statements too. Listen to what the boys say, they don't think it's all sunshine and lollipops either.


FINAL RAW FOR FOLEY?
WWE is at a real crossroads. Allow me to paraphrase Albert Einstein, who said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results". Wrestling historians can argue about when the ‪#‎AttitudeEra‬ in wrestling officially began. But for me, it will always be at a meeting called by Mr McMahon in the Spring of 1997, where he admitted that what had worked for them for so long in the past (I interpreted that to mean one-dimensional characters that tended to be job-related) was no longer working, and that if they were going to survive, the wrestlers themselves were going to have to step up, and help create those dimensions that would establish the emotional bond between the wrestlers and the fans - part of the lifeblood of professional wrestling.
Today's WWE Superstars (I'm including the women here, since the term "Diva" had its time, and that time is done) are at a distinct disadvantage in some ways. They can't flip birds, and use the colorful language. They can't bleed - even when the situation seems ripe for it. Man, Roman Reigns life would be so much easier if he could survive vicious assaults - and be left bloodied, but unbowed - the way guys in my era did. But all the blood, the language and the violence paled in comparison to the real secret weapon of the Attitude Era; FREEDOM! The freedom to CREATE..the freedom to TRY... the freedom to FAIL - the idea that going down swinging (I hope I'm not losing you guys in all the non-baseball playing countries) was almost as important as hitting the ball out of the park - as long as you took your best swings. There's a difference between playing to win, and playing not to lose: one breeds confidence, the other breeds fear.It's the difference between cutting the type of promos Stone Cold Steve Austin and Dwayne The Rock Johnson gave, and the cookie-cutter approach all too often employed these days by WWE creative. One style allowed for creativity and emotion. The other calls for memorization and recitation.
I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on WWE. There is a big part of me that loves this company, and always will. Why else would I be up at 4:15 am, writing things that are likely to banish me deeper and deeper into the WWE doghouse? One of my favorite wrestlers proposed a storyline that would allow me a four of five week storyline that would allow me to dig in deep, and swing for the fences - and in the process, maybe advance a few of the super-talented but underutilized athletes on the roster. I would love to do it....but I doubt it's going to happen. After all, I might want to do something crazy like go out there without a script, and try to create some real emotion - in other words, the type of thing that saved WWE in the late 90's.
The talent pool has never been deeper. But the creative flow is stagnant...and it's been stinking for a while. I quoted Einstein to begin this thing. Let me conclude with the immortal words of Owen Heart: "Enough's enough: it's time for a change!"

I think I'll be at a loss for words if the response I get is something along the lines of "See Vince is still a genius because he knew enough to trust New Day with their own creative output."

That promo was designed to babyface the direction the company was going, not Vince himself.

I started listening to the Jericho podcast with New Day that some people have brought up. Haven't got through the whole thing yet.

Sounds like Vince thought the group had potential and was stuck for a gimmick. He came up with the preacher idea and thought it would get over as a babyface act. It was working in some towns, but the smark cities they were a heel, which started to carry over. They got a really strong heel reaction the day after Mania, so Vince agreed to go heel with the act.

The takeaway for me is Vince had the vision that the three guys would work as an act. He thought a bunch of black guys spreading positivity would catch on as a babyface act. He then listened to the crowd and went in the other direction for the time being. The ironic thing is New Day will likely end up as babyfaces, so Vince will be ultimately proven correct. The only difference is I think the act will have a little more of an edge than Vince originally expected. The cool thing about listening to those guys is they personify what Vince has been challenging the talent to do. Take an interest in your characters direction, and really own it. Makes me like these guys even more, and reiterates what I've believed, which is the system is there to make stars, and works when the talent is motivated and skilled.

He was backed into a corner

You have your champion leaving and refusing to put over the guy you want to be the heir apparent.

Nash put over HBK and Taker on his way out. Why couldn't Bret put over HBK?

Bret left Vince with no choice. Well, no good choice anyway.

I'm pretty sure that not everyone has the creative freedom that New Day has.

In other words work within our really rigid system and get yourself over. You hear that Johnny Curtis? It's your fault that despite being insanely talented you can't get over with your lack of TV time and stupid gimmick.


The system is not there to make stars it's there to elevate a select few who fit a certain criteria.

I don't see why New Day would get special treatment. Maybe now, because they are over, but when they were first trying to establish a gimmick they said they were always going to Vince with concepts.

Ryder was over for a time, but his popularity fizzled out because he didn't have any depth to his gimmick. It was just broski and woowoowoo and that's it. Plus he came off like a geek

Care to elaborate?

Keep in mind I've only listed to about 10 minutes. Which isn't "doing my thing", unless my thing is being busy at the time.

Why do I get the feeling that you don't think the company actually pushing Ryder would have mattered?

Lets apply this logic to Roman he isn't interesting all he is so by the numbers it hurts has zero depth to him fans generally dislike him. Ryder at least has Something but by your logic Roman should be a non-issue right now, he isn't because the WWE is determined to make us think he doesn't suck. Having the company support DOES matter.

I remember watching Ryder grow in popularity because he was smart and was an early adopter to social media. I would watch him get these huge pops and think "why do people like this guy? ". But hey different strokes. In my opinion what happened was they got what they could out of him. He was like a car with only one gear. You need more than that to elevate your career.

To me Roman has a much better look than Ryder, he works like a main eventer, he has crazy presence, he just needs more confidence on the mic. I think that can be developed.

Give Dean his spot then he has all the tools.

Hey guys, this post happened as well you know...

lol what the hell

It's fascinating when we get to see CyNick interact with some of the old guard who haven't posted here in a while...I wonder how long Mr. CSL will keep at him before he realizes what the rest of us already know about CyNick being very set in his opinions.

And don't forget buzzwords which removes all organic feel from every thing. But Vince is the greatest of all time at all of life, and even his very few mistakes he has ever made can be easily rationalized, and are simply sensationalized by that fascist Dave Meltzer.

CSL better get ready to be talked at and then have thedamndest tell him hes been owned and now butthurt by the superior rhetoric of thecynick

We tend to just look past the majority of STD's posts anymore. It's kinda like he gets a Dana Brooke pat to the head for doing a good job.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/ac3278ac...zhteo1_400.gif

Sorry I thought you were talking about the New Day convo.

Trust me my man, I know every painful detail about this story from everyone who was there (well at least what they said publically).

I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving.

Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12.

The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony.

There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

I've been saying the same thing for years. Long before WWE Network.

I believe when it first happened, I was on Bret's side. When I watched his doc, and started reading more first hand accounts, I developed the view I currently have.

But yeah, you fit in well here by not debating anything I said. Cool.

Unfortunate

Think the road to to Wrestlemania just started, and csl just won the Rumble.

I feel like I was put in my place

Explain Eugine
and mocking JRs Bells Palsy....WHILE PUSHING THE B A STAR CAMPAIGN.

Then explain Smackdown's shitty rating.

gonna piggyback off of what csl said as its been what we've been saying for some time, but with a bit more of his trademark cuntiness.

MWAH

Dale, don't lower yourself to CSL's level. You at least debate a point (majority of the time). CSL made a bunch of points, which I retorted, and then rather than making a counterpoint he goes "you're just sticking to your point". Well maybe if someone brings a point that causes me to change my position, I might. And it's not like he was flexible on his position either.

If the idea is "there's no point of presenting differing opinions because it's all been said before", then this message board would be pretty dull (think how it was before I made my much heralded return). Maybe a guy like CSL comes to a message board for the ads, I don't know.

Don't be the guy who is willing to take the count out loss. If you have a position at least have the gumption to defend it.

I may have been out of the loop on the making fun of JR. If they did, I think it's in poor taste, and isn't conducive of maximizing TV rights fees.

Eugene wad a character I didn't personally like, but he was positioned high on the card, and for a while there, people were into it. So I had no problem with it.

On Thanksgiving???

Likely had to do with throwing out the script Jim Cornette, Mick Foley, and Dave Meltzer worked on together. If only they would listen! !!! WWE could actually turn a profit. Oh well.

Great job on not really explaining anything. :y:

<font color=goldenrod>The CyNick is doing some god-tier level trolling in this thread/forum.</font>

Sorry, apple of my eye, what logic am I ignoring?

Ratings:

Thanksgiving is a national holiday celebrated in Canada and the United States as a day of giving thanks for the blessing of the harvest and of the preceeding year. Thanksgiving is celebrated on the second Monday of October in Canada and on the fourth Thursday of November in the United States.

The part about Cornette:

The Tongue-in-cheek figure of speech is used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.

That may be nonetheless it is fascinating that someone could defend and even love the BS the WWE has churned out.
It's like he's on the payroll to tow the company line.

It's amazing.

Why halt R-Truths awesome heel run? He was in a feud with John fucking Cena.
and before you say he was too goofy to be taken as a real threat
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Oh man if they had just let him cut lose :drool:

Ok thanks. Still doesn't explain why Smackdown is so shitty but hey never mind the last few posts have summed up this thread anyway.

from wiki

"<b>Poe's law</b> is an internet adage which states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extremism are indistinguishable from sincere expressions of extremism. Poe's Law implies that parody will often be mistaken for sincere belief, and sincere beliefs for parody."

lol it's hilarious in the casual forum guys who've read like 3 of the cynick's posts are like "IT'S AMAZING HOW THE WRESTLING FORUM GUYS CAN'T DEAL WITH A GUY NOT THINKING CESARO IS AMAZING" and it's like no, pretty much all of us understand people not being into guys we like. We'll debate about it for days but I feel like we all have a healthy understanding of differing tastes.