If Kurt fights HHH I think I am going to take another hiatus.

This is true though

It has the distinction of being both objectively true and self-fulfilment.

It's hard to top the perfect storm of top-tier talent in the prime swing of the Attitude Era, but they generally fail to position newer stars, then panic and trot out the old timers who we remember fondly and continue to make them world beaters.

Good example is back then, the feud with LoD put over NAO as a legit team. Fast forward to The Ascension, and it looked like Outlawz jobbing to them was going to be a passing of the torch, but then they got jumped by all these other old teams with no reciept coupled by the constant burial from the announce desk. They could have been made, and instead were made to look like chumps. They bragged about being better than older teams, but we're teally booked to back that up. Yeah, Konnor and Victor likely weren't going to set the world on fire in being one of the greatest teams in history, but having them lose a fight to retirees and turn tail killed any momentum or mystique. Why would I want to see them now? Like Steve Austin said of Mark Mero after that Sable powerbomb "Who the hell am I fighting now?" Nobody wants to see Ascension if they can easily get laid out by a guy who only knows one word and an announcer who used to tag once long ago.

Not going to touch your Ascention point because it's valid. They were booked poorly...but here's the thing: The Ascention ( WHO I LOVE) are not stars. At all. And there are nearly none in the industry today. It's not that WWF is failing to make new ones. It's that none exist. They're fighting to make guys who arent stars feel like stars and frankly no one could do better with the crop they have.


The territories died and with it we lost the tools that trained good workers. Now we have a corperate system that is trying to manufacture them and it just isnt going to work. I think it's a death spiral honestly...we'll see how the next decade goes.

In 90 days, no one will care. This is the philosophy behind the curtain.

I wonder how much the wrestlers are just "wrestling" (showing up to do the physical part onlyand which ones are actually given freedom to develop their own personality.

For example, in today's world of scripted promos, Stone Cold would have never existed or come to fruition, I don't think. For fucks sake, their idea for him was "The Ringmaster" :| That's about as generic as it can get.

I would like to see them take a chance on more stars and let them do what they do. Gallows & Anderson are a good example. They both have great charisma and could "shine" more than they do currently. Not saying they are the next LOD, NAO etc. but they could be better.

I dunno, I don't watch regularly, so my input is probably sub-par at best. These are just some of the biggest differences I can see which appear to be contributing factors to the state of the current product.

I don't entirely agree with you. It isn't that WWE doesn't have potential stars, it's that they are poor at ascertaining who the true diamonds are. Remember when Cena and Orton were an "experiment"? They saw little value in two guys who they would shit themselves if they lost today. Rocky had a rocket up his ass before he was ready. Austin, in his own words, was a "utility worker". He wasn't seen as what he would become, and if origional plans were followed, we likely would never find out.

Eva Marie was so much worse than a debuting Trish Stratus (no rose glasses; she sucked at first) and Kelly Kelly combined, and in spite of EVERY OTHER WOMAN on the roster at the time being objectively better no matter how green they were, they were dead set on pushing her until the backlash and/or mounting evidence of potential injuries was too much to ignore. Daniel Bryan was over as fuck, and they still nearly passed on that. Don't need to argue about Zack Ryder again. They let Cody Rhodes go. AJ Styles seemed to be brought in begrudgingly. Do you really think Jinder would be getting this push if they weren't looking at this foreign market strategy heavily right now? He was there for years, released, and brought back. Hell, Braun Strowman ticks all the boxes of every goddamn thing Vince wants except for maybe a luxurious mane, and they're STILL dead set on Roman being Cena Lite even seemingly at Brawn's expense.

They have people who have talents we possibly haven't seen yet or possibly ever because we don't get to see it. Rusev on social media is a charm and a treasure, and I say that as someone who isn't exactly one of his banner wavers. Rusev on TV is a fucking boring and generic foreign heel done ad nauseum. It shouldn't have taken Talking Smack to inject life into people that they can't seem to do in actual allotted television time. It shouldn't take someone *having* to take to social media because writers can't seem to concentrate on more than one angle at a time. We could have a whole treasure trove of top talent being wasted, and we are none the wiser.

You pulled everything I wanted to say right outta my mind. Everything there is exactly the problem(s).

Its not the bookers job to get you over. You get yourself over. The bookers job is to utilize over talent.

Danielson was a failure of the booking. He was over and they tried to stop it. But if you're jerking the curtains its for one of two reasons. 1. You didnt get your ass over. 2. The talent is stacked and you didnt get yourself over enough.... maybe 3. You shit in the wrong guys cheerios.

Like people getting passed over for promotion. You gotta take ownership of that. You gotta impress your boss not the otherway around.

If the booker is having to get you over you should take it as a failure on your part. Its what they pay you to do.

10min of tv cost the WWE $45k. Theres a real investment there everytime you go out there. Blaming the office is a joke.

Goddammit, I wrote a very verbose response, and it got lost for being "logged out".

Rollins proved to be amazing and over. They then took away his amazing laugh and made him into Reigns light. Go figure.

Let me try this again with what I can remember writing:

Monday on RAW, Samoa Joe cut a fantastic promo that positions him as a threat to Brock. Now, Joe could've shit the bed and blew his chance. That would've been on him. My poibt is that what if they never had Joe go out there? He gets beat clean by Brock, killed by an F5, and doesn't have the opportunity to prop himself up the next night. Roman and Heyman/Brock shit on Joe, and they set themselves up for Reigns vs Lesnar... again. How would Joe being diminished here have been his fault?

Remember when Lesnar debuted? You think he would've become the attraction he is today if he was booked the same way Curtis Axel was? Brock comes in, double powerbombs people for 2-3 weeks, then constantly jobs clean, becomes Heyman's meatshield, and made to look like a buffoon? He would've been dead inside of two months no matter how he looks. Would that have been Brock's fault he didn't get over?

Back to Austin 3:16. If the Curtain Call never happened, he never would have won that tournament. If they didn't have allotted time for a coronation (along with the other moving parts like Austin being upset about something Jake supposedly said beforehand), the promo wouldn't have been dropped. No promo, no signs and groundswell. But ultimately, if Vince still saw no value in him outside of being "a good hand", he would have gone on to become yet another midcard-at-best nobody that people would only kinda remember as one half of the Hollywood Blondes. Not seeing how any of that would be Austin's fault for not getting himself over.

How can one seize the moment when they arent given moments to seize? Who cares about how much is spent on tv time? Part of what that time was *supposed* to be for is helping more people get on tv. You can't say nobody is a draw when there are barely opportunities to make new people be perceived as a draw. The company cannot be rotally absolved of this issue in spite of you thinking that is "a joke".

Being passed over for promotion isn't always a simple issue of impressing your boss or not... bosses make mistakes on who they do or don't promote. You could be the most compotent writer, filer, and whatever on your job, but you get passed over because your boss likes how Jane looks in a miniskirt. Has nothing to do with how skilled you potentially are, and you never get the chance to prove it. How is that your fault for not "stepping up"?

Good talent would still get over. If all those moments never happend another moment would have and we'd be talking abnout them. Cream rises to the top. Always. If you're good poeple will want to see you. No one gave Danielson anything. he went out and got so fucking over that the pushed him. This is what good talent is. Thats the definition. If you cant do exactly that then you arent good talent you're a lip stick-pig.


If im not getting over in a town then I need to evaluate what I'm selling them. Winning and losing dont get me over. Especially not in 2017. I get me over.


These guys are given moments to sieze ad nauseum but the moments never come. And they never will. You cite the KotR promo but it basically proves my point. How many 7 min promos are guys given? Dozens? Hundreds? Fuck in this day in age you can put the world title on a guy, build 30 min of TV a week of him and still comes out a midcarder. Thats a failure of the talent. Austin winning KotR didnt make the promo any better, he looked at his opponent and spoke from the characfters heart. Could have been any night really. Austin had found a voice that resonated with the audience. He made himself a star and made sure we knew. That's talent.


Did anyone try and make Mic Foley one of the top acts on the planet? No one but Mick did thats for damn sure. History is litered with these stories. Now everyone wants to act like its someone elses job to make this better when the blame is soley on the talent.


How many monster pushes went nowhere? More than paid off thats for damn sure. Because the booking is a SMALL part of what gets you over. You get over FIRST, then you get a push. Thats where the success is.


10min of TV. $45,000. Thats a huge investment.

That would make sense if all the guys were allowed to "speak from their characters heart" still instead of having their promos scripted. Getting over today is more reliant on the writers than ever before and the writers are worse than ever before.

I'll give that the prmos handed to them are poo.

But obviously going off script doesnt get your fired soooooo...

Pretty sure going off script would get a lot of these guys fired.

Though I agree with what you're saying Destor. Guys back in the day made themselves stars... I just don't know if they have the environment to make themselves star now. Everything about the WWE's presentation is inorganic. Listen to the fucking commentary. Back in those days, as BAD as it could get, whether it was the production, or Vince not being SO focused on marketing and stocks... the product felt more intimate and less homogenized. A guy could cut the most amazing promo these days, but then Michael Cole would be like "I WONDER WHAT THE BIG DOG ROMAN REIGNS WHO ISN'T A BAD GUY, ISN'T A GOOD GUY, BUT IS THE GUY, WOULD THINK OF THIS... NEVERMIND THE #WWEUNIVERSE" (not even specifically shitting on Cole or Roman, insert any commentator with any corporately manufactured nickname, it's just how the product is) so the promo wouldn't even matter.

I hear but now we're shifting the focus onto the commentators. At what point do we own our own successes and failures? A great lay by play can def aid or hinder the process but he doesnt make you

I think it's the entire product. I see a lot of very talented guys with lots of experience, floundering.

the commentary being one example. EVERYTHING is scripted and homogenized. And yes, commentators, wrestlers, and pretty much anyone would get fired for going off script. It's been made pretty clear.

I do agree though, as I mentioned earlier, the corperate machine will choke the life out of the business. Like trying to grow a rose in the desert.


But every guy who has been star quality in the era has done it the same way: taking it by the balls and pushing what HES selling. Not what the booker had him sell. Tht's what resonated 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago and thats what will continue to do so going forward.


The guys who fail to do that should be held accountable though.It's on them.

Typically they get pushed

how successful can anyone be when EVERYTHING about the product is corporate buzzwords?

Your lunatic fringe dean ambrose calls the fans, the WWE universe. That is fucking retarded.

The buck stops at Cena. Whereas Rock and Austin were trailblazers who took risks, Cena was a kissass. I respect John, but he's too fucking company and he started failing when it became apparent that he was the manifestation of the WWE corporate monster, and he did nothing to change it.

and yeah, he's the #1 guy of the past decade.... but he's the #1 guy of a stagnant, boring business.

It is, but if that's whats keeping him being a breakout star I'll eat RP's cum sock

it's certainly part of the problem. The need to book him in stupid comedy shit doesn't help either. Plus his punches and selling :'(

Fact is, he was HOT coming out of the shield, he had a lot of steam as a bad boy, but it was within weeks he was doing weird shit with manikins and constantly losing by roll up distraction finishes like everyone else.

Going off script would not get someone fired if they're already a star. They need to go off script to become a star though. Kind of a catch-22.

Like Dale said, the product is micro-managed like never before. You can't become your own guy in that environment. It's night and day compared to 20 years ago when it comes to your ability to get yourself over.

There really isnt any evidence of that though. Seems like the power play is pretty respected as long as you get your shit over while you're out there...Im sure if you came to the back and it was a turd it would be a new ball game...


CALCULATED RISK

A CALCULATED RISK when not over but trying to get over would make sense if there was another promotion that offers the $$$ that WWE does. "Back in those days" there was still WCW to go to.

Now it is.... maybe ROH and NJPW.

Top tier indy guys and NJPW guys make as much as WWE guys who arent main eventish

WWE undercard guys are are pulling about 45k before travel. Take home is like 35k unless you're crafty.

If you're talented a bold move on the national level could get you more on than indies than in the fed. Look at Rhodes. His gross this year will be the biggest of his career.

There's a lot of marks who run shows too. Theyll pay some stupid money for a name.

Some might. Just seems, since "then" vs "now" was being compared, the calculated risk of today vs that of yesterday just wouldn't be worth it.