I hope Enzo Amore is on the next season of Survivor

It absolutely reflects reality. What DOESN'T effect reality is when you haphazardly take any accusation as true or even likely until proven otherwise because "most women don't lie about this". The evidence in this case is the evidence in this case. That's reality. The idea that anyone making an allegation must be believed until proven otherwise is disgusting regardless of the claim.

I always thought it was innocent until proven guilty. Apparently it's been guilty until proven innocent the entire time. Blows my mind how I missed that this whole time.

Also can if we can factor in "statistically, women don't lie", can we factor in "statistically, crazy drug addicts with a history of being unstable attention whores tend to lie a lot more than others"? Because that's also definitely reality.

Women don't lie.....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I wish someone would tell women that.

Boy. Let me stop. That was rich though.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is so commonly misunderstood. It refers to legal innocence, not factual innocence, meaning that gov't has to prove an accused person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Mileage can vary on reasonable doubt but a juror must not convict even if they believe the defendant to be guilty. That's why a person guilty as sin can get acquitted.

It is but doesn't cancel out the reality of false accusations being rare.

My point is proven. Very clear that the allegation alone means Enzo is a rapist to you guys even though he has not been proven guilty.

It shouldn't be misunderstood though. The fact that someone can have their livelihood stripped away solely based on accusations, without their guilt ever being proven, well that's just simply appalling to me.

Statistics should have no bearing on any of this. This is all on a case by case basis. Who cares if false accusations are rare? Those are other cases that have no relevance to this one. Every one of these situations is unique and to break it down into statistical analysis does all parties involved an injustice. If we keep heading down this road the number of false accusations is liable to start rising exponentially; once people realize they can screw over someone they don't like just by levelling an accusation at them, regardless of the legitimacy of the claim, more and more people will do it purely out of spite.

Sorry Seph. All women are virtuous beings incapable of evil actions.

But anyways. I agree with you. It should all be a case-by-case basis.

One of those bull shit "stats" that cant be proven.

That's what I keep thinking.

Cop once told me in elementary school that 90% of all criminals get caught. Im still dumbfounded by how ignorant you have to believe to think you can quantify that

Saw a homeless lady walking around the streets yelling that she was raped by George Washington's ghost. Based on statistics, she was telling the truth.

Not really considering there are organizations that track these stats and reveal why it becomes one of the hardest crimes to get a conviction in court. Besides the circumstances and scrutiny for evidence, attacking the accuser's credibility has been a very proven and effective tactic both in court and public opinion.

Those same organizations also come up with the same overall result that the amount of rapes that don't get reported or investigated properly is way, way, way higher than those that do.

Well we have to take her word for it. This changes everything we thought we knew about George Washington. I'll start writing the exposé and get it published by babe.net. If that fails I'll settle for Huffington Post.

I'm not saying there isn't any merit to this. But it's literally one lens.

The attitude of "he was accused therefore he did it" is fucked.

He isn't even getting charged anymore because they can't prove anything and y'all are gonna act like he deserves it. I don't like Enzo, but with what we know from the case, nobody can fairly say he deserves to be considered a rapist by anyone.

How do they have even a count on "rapes that don't get reported"? If they aren't reported then how do they know about them? SO CONFUSING.

The flaw to this is the assumption that the verdict is true making this entire metric worthless

How is that any different than automatically believing the woman is lying either every time incidents like this pop up.

Based on the various sites I visit daily, a ton more have stuck with the woman being a liar the whole time and used today to pounce on their claims even though the case was only dismissed. A big chunk believing he's still a dumbass for not telling the WWE, a smaller chunk realizing he's still neither guilty nor innocent (same for the accuser), and barely anyone claiming he is still a rapist.


Estimates and probably police data which is why the range can vary a lot. Last I read, its something like 1 out of every 3 cases are ever reported in the US as a best case and then the number keeps dwindling percentage wise the close you get to a possible conviction due to various reasons and circumstances.

Was my argument to the cop claiming 9/10 criminals get caught. At the least the scale has to tip beyond the claim, you cant put a value to unknowns and hope for anything that resembles accuracy.

It jusr "feels" accurate. Its not science.

It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".

I'm not gonna believe the crazy homeless lady who claims she was raped by George Washington's ghost. That's the extreme example. The less extreme example is not believing the drug addict attention whore who bragged about sex with a guy before deciding to accuse him of rape. Both are more logical reactions than "Well, she's got a vagina so... probably telling the truth." That's setting a horrifying precedent.

As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.

Your naive if you think otherwise.

Once that stench is on you it's never removed.

And yep, he is a dumbass for not telling WWE. If that's their motivation (coupled with his shit attitude) for keeping him fired then that's cool.

I'm not talking about the news sites anyways. I'm talking about here. And enough of pretty much civilians participating in most discourse.

"Dude gets accused of rape and doesn't end up getting charged" usually turns into "well statistics show that he likely did it". It's ugly.

Rape is certainly uglier. But it is different to many crimes given its social implications. To act like women faking accusations is laughable is very naive.

Well said.

If my options are "always believe women based off imaginary data" or "always reject women if there is a lack of data" i know which way im leaning.

I'm not concerned with what "happens online". I'm talking about the discussion that's happening right now.

And if you want to ask "why would a woman lie about being raped?", ask yourself "why would a man rape a woman?" The argument commonly used for the latter question is it's about power.

Gotta go with the TODDSTER here. We're talking about us hombres in this conversation (and most civil discourse). Most twitter/youtube threads are the dregs. I think we all line up closer than you think. Enough so that we can have a productive discussion.

Not when you all repeating the similar points but masquerading it to make it seem like your having a productive conversation or "balanced" debate.

But I digress, I have a different feeling on this issue, you/WWF Fan/Destor have your own and I doubt anything I post would shift your view nor yours on mine.

Same for whenever the topic of mental health or other touchy issues pop up on TPWW and I quickly realize my view is a lot different than others here. That's when I start to realize maybe it might be time to move on from here.

The idea isn't "They were accused so they must be guilty" but rather there's a good chance the accused could be based on stats. I assume when somebody's accused of anything, the chance of them being innocent/guilty is 50/50 (before I hear of the evidence involved).

Missed this earlier but that's my point. He still got even though he did. Also, he was initially got suspended, like Amore did, except he didn't fail to tell them.

We're saying "blindly believing all women is a horrible idea" and you're determined to vilify that logic by lumping us in with some internet trolls who say "never believe a woman" as opposed to listening to what we're actually saying. And we're somehow the ones who aren't interested in a productive conversation. You're being insanely dishonest. I agree we'll never come to an understanding because it's obvious from that alone that that isn't your M.O.

Would be interesting to see the reaction if some batshit crazy lady with no credibility accused a wrestler people actually like of rape with no evidence that she's being truthful and actual evidence that suggests she's lying. Like... if Daniel Bryan were in this situation instead of Enzo, I wonder if he would basically be considered guilty.

Enzo got fired for lying/not disclosing to the WWE about the investigation. Also he had already been on thin ice and kicked off the WWE bus by Roman Reigns.

He was a big-headed jerk and this was the excuse WWE was looking for to cut ties. He was over like rover but couldn't get out of his own way.

Badda boom, stupidest fuck in the room. How is he doing?

:y:

A crime likely being committed (not specifically referring to this case) does not mean guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And being acquitted doesn't mean that a crime was not committed.

Absolute bullshit.

No one is entitled to a life of fame from the get-go. Enzo was lucky to be where he was in the first place. But he was also in hot water for his general attitude (asshole) and not informing the company of it (boneheaded). Also -- and it's been a while since I've read up on the details of the case -- but I'm fairly certain Enzo does not deny sleeping with the girl in question, and that all accounts had them both as intoxicated off illegal drugs or something like that? In the current PR-hungry world of WWE, that's not going to fly.

He's facing the consequences of his own actions. He's not going to prison for rape, because there is no evidence a rape was committed. But fuck me if he isn't a fucking muppet and I don't feel sorry for him because he lost his job for generally being a trouble magnet.

:y:

There are plenty of metrics to measure this sort of stuff. You aren't just going by trial data and conviction rates. There are medical reports, outcries, psychological studies, sociological studies, organizations that gather reports, even religious confessions. If anything, the number is likely underrepresented.

Your first two lines are on the money. It is only one lens. That is why he is not being charged. Unfortunately, you often get multiple lenses and people still don't get charged. Sometimes things are pretty fucking obvious and people still don't get charged.

No one is saying that because he was accused he did it. It is unlikely that the girl made it up. That's just a fact. Could she have made it up? Sure. But is it likely? No. If it were true, would there be more evidence? Unfortunately, not necessarily. It's a big, dark mess. Does he deserve to be treated like a rapist? No. That's why he's not going to prison.

Medical reports, counseling sessions, outcries, confessions, studies, etc. I can't believe you don't know women who have been assaulted and never reported it.

Well, when you misrepresent the other side of the argument so grossly as to talk about ghosts and shit, which you admit is "extreme," you make it pretty easy to vilify your logic. How about you listen to what other people are saying?

No one is saying that Enzo definitely did it. What we're saying is that there not being evidence enough to press charges doesn't mean he didn't. Until those charges can be pressed, he is free man though, so good for him.

What doesn't sit well with me when discussing things like this is the inherent fact that someone is lying. Either the woman is lying or Enzo is lying. It's possible both are lying. It's possible both think they are telling the truth, but objective reality suggests that they can't both be telling it. What's really unsettling to me is just how comfortable a lot of dudes are with saying that it's the chick that's lying. You don't even need to say that Enzo is lying, but the idea that this is just a dark and messy situation with a definitive victim (of some description) that they should not have to go through is kind of brushed aside in favor of "she's a crack whore, she can't be trusted." Not an actual quote from anyone, but the sentiment floats around and it makes me want to destroy the entire internet.

People that aren't perceived as having any credibility can be raped too. Homeless people, drug addicts, compulsive liars. It doesn't just exist for good girls who tell the truth all the time and don't touch coke. I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up? I think Dale would, and I'd like to think #fan and Destor would, but it's something to give some thought about whether or not this is really about a lack of evidence, or just what the charge implies.

What doesn't sit well with me is that people want to assign some statistical value to each party as to which is more likely to be the liar. Each case is different, each person is different; women being statistically less likely to lie than men in this situation should have no bearing whatsoever on a specific case.

I'm not siding with Enzo. I'm not siding against his accuser. I'm erring on the side of caution because some statistical analysis of completely different people who have nothing to do with this case means nothing to me when I'm trying to determine my own personal judgement of this singular situation. And unlike some people, I'm not willing to convict Enzo just because he has a penis which supposedly means he's more likely to be the one spinning a yarn.

I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.

Man that whole 30 for 30 was rough to fucking watch.

That's not misrepresenting the other side. My "raped by a ghost" example, by your logic, shouldn't be discounted because women lying about rape is "statistically rare". It's an extreme example because you guys can't seem to see the obviously flaw in the more subtle example. The point of it is, other factors come into play.

And yes, you're not saying that Enzo definitely did it. But when you keep making it clear "well, he could have still done it because women don't tend to lie about rape", you're clearly implying where the odds lean. Why is my extreme example so crazy? Because there's other factors at play that make it seem unlikely? If so, congrats. You're using the same logic we've been using the entire time. We're on the same page.

Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.

ain't no one pounding no believing men

I wonder if their lives are normal after this. Cause I know the girl isn't doing too well.

:y:

Didn't she commit suicide or something? Maybe I have my stories mixed up there.

Either way, no matter what way you swing it that situation was god fucking awful.

She's in prison for murder apparently. Didn't see that coming.

Oh yeah I think I remember that. Fuck.

The police Sgt on the case committed suicide.

Why would you even specify that? Odd.

I clearly needs to be after rampant accusations of sexism surrounding this topic

because this conversation has been about gender and sex as much as anything else.

Except sexual abusers and ghosts don't exist in the same realm of likelihood? That's just a ridiculous and childish example. The chances of someone being sick aren't out of this world, but the chances of someone being infected with an extra-terrestrial flesh-eating virus specifically out of a sci-fi movie in the 80's come to life with magic is low.

I don't think I made that quote. You're splicing two halves of two different points together. "Women don't usually lie about rape" is one point. That's true. I don't see your big problem with that and why that truth makes you uncomfortable. The second is that "he could have still done it, because there not being enough evidence to convict doesn't mean it didn't happen," which is not an outlandish statement ever. If there are two children who could have eaten the cookies from a cookie jar, and you can't be sure who it was, and they each accuse the other and you don't have the evidence to accuse either one, it doesn't mean that the cookies weren't eaten. In this case: Maybe there were no eaten cookies? Maybe there were? We don't know, but where I disagree is when you say there definitely aren't because you can't be sure an accused party actually did it. You just shouldn't blame them for eating cookies if you aren't sure cookies have been eaten. But you also shouldn't go around calling someone with an empty cookie jar with crumbs in it a liar also.

I think you've been far too biased with your application of what makes it "unlikely." I mean, neither of us has access to any sort of psychological assessment on the girl, but if I remember you were someone saying that because she "bragged" about it in a text, it means she couldn't have not given consent? I'm sure there's a proper name for it, but when people are abused you often see them try to take ownership over that abuse by compartmentalizing it differently in their mind. It's like disassociation, I suppose, but you see it in younger abuse victims all the time. They will almost brag about being hurt or make it seem like no big deal. It doesn't mean nothing's happened to them, man. Not everyone responds with tears at the time.

The only other thing is the guy that says she's a liar. But if he's a liar...

It's dumb. It's really fucking dumb to discuss this like either of us has intimate knowledge of what is happening. I'm just put-off by people so willing to attack the credibility of a woman reporting a crime, of which false reports I believe are still felonies, making it extremely disadvantageous.

The problem is we have equal amounts of evidence that she is reporting a crime as we do that she is committing one. Guess thats not the kind of equality that matters though.

Interestingly enough, the only person who has used the word "sexism" since Dale brought this back up is #fan. Methinks biases are creeping in a bit too much.

We're 100% sure she reported a crime. Or do you mean that she is reporting an accurate crime?

Lol, Enzo isn't getting prosecuted right now. So many people are like "Innocent until proven guilty" then when Enzo gets off because there isn't definitive proof that he is guilty they are still beating that drum for some reason.

We are not sure she reported a crime. We are 100% sure she made an accusation. But since the default in absolutely every instance is "no crime has been committed" im left with saying "no crime has been committed" in the face of no evidence to the contrary.

We dont have to say the word, we all know what this conversation is about. Why are playing semantics games?

Sexism and misogyny are always implied in these discussions.

Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:

* It is true that women rarely report false sexual assault claims. There is nothing outlandish about this claim. If it makes you uncomfortable, seek help.

* Enzo was accused of sexual assault. It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.

* Enzo was released from the WWE because of the compounded issue of the allegations, his disclosure of them, his attitude in general, and probably his lack of talent. See Heath Slater for someone who was accused of sexual harassment/assault, handled it correctly, and still has a job today. This is not a violation of Enzo's right to due process.

* Upon investigaton, it was discovered that there was not enough evidence to charge Enzo. This does not mean he did it, nor that he didn't do it. It means what it suggests -- that there is not enough evidence to charge Enzo. As a result, due to the legal process, Enzo is a free man until more evidence can be uncovered, if it exists at all, if a crime was committed at all.

* Rape allegations should still be taken very seriously, considering the fact that they are not usually fabricated. Men and women with substance abuse problems can be assaulted too, and their past shouldn't dismiss their credibility. A healthy amount of skepticism can be taken whilst still investigating. People in these situations can be preyed upon and can lie about all the circumstances surrounding an event and the core incident can still be true.

Look at it like this Noid.

With what we know about the accuser, we've used our intuition and critical thinking skills to say "ehhhh we don't buy it". The lack of evidence for a case only supports this feeling.

Honestly, this is just what we know. We weren't there. We'll likely never know what happened that night.

My main issue is this will stain Enzo's reputation. Given I believe with what has been presented to me that he didn't do it, I think that is awful.

And I'm aware crazy immature drug addicts get raped. In fact, given the lifestyle, probably more frequently than less at-risk people. Still doesn't make this specific lunatic credible. The story seemed to have holes in it from the beginning.

Nice blanket statement there. I hope it's warm and snug and protects you from all the victimization. God knows that wouldn't be fair. :lol:

Who knows what's up? The #Woke crew?

If you want people to see things your way, you need to have uncomfortable conversations "that make you feel gross".

Last I checked, none of us have sexually assaulted a woman so we're all playing for the good guys. We are just having a real conversation.

what?

Okay, I'll hear that. I'm glad you used the word intuition, because I think it's mainly that. I disagree with the critical thinking you've done. I'm not saying that you haven't done it, I just disagree with the process. I think Occam's razor is pretty clear about what the most likely scenario in this is, for example (and it's messy at its tidiest).

I agree with your second statement. We weren't there, and we may not ever know.

That's fair enough. I don't give a shit about Enzo's reputation in this, honestly. Sorry to sound callous, but wasn't she like a drugged-up teenage girl? I can hear Destor saying "Still an adult" now, but surely there must be some more engaging pussy in the world. He's obviously got a touch of the Jerry Lawlers or what have you. I don't have to feel sorry for him putting himself in these situations. And, as I said, TNA has no problem hiring people with sexual assault accusations to their name. It won't make him unemployable or anything. And he lost his job for compounded reasons that are his responsibility. He has not been found guilty unjustly at this point in time.

My main concern is the backflips people will do to go after an alleged victim's credibility. It doesn't make me feel good. At all. I completely agree with you that they are more at risk, which is why statements like "some drugged up crazy" (paraphrasing from around the place) or whatever are just...what? Why would you even go down that road? You could describe Enzo the same way, lol.

Real life often has holes in it. Stories don't always add up 100% when dealing with messes like this. And I hope we can agree that this is a fucking mess. I'd probably not like to associate with anyone in this story. That doesn't mean Enzo deserves to go to prison if he's innocent, and that doesn't mean that this girl is a liar because she's got issues.

Not wanting to talk about one thing at a particular point in time is not the same thing as avoiding all uncomfortable conversations though, lol. It's not the duty of everyone all the time to do it about everything.

Would it be inappropriate to make a mike adamle joke in response to your last point? I kid, mike.

... You literally asked if I would defend a woman in this situation. I said I would regardless of the sex. Now you're questioning why I would specify that it has nothing to do with the person's sex.

You can't be serious.

This is seriously an exchange that just happened. What the shit.

Toddster getting in some offence.

Look, I get that Noid feels "weird" about having the conversation and would rather not continue or whatever. That's cool. Whatever. I am gonna need clarification on that exchange though because that was a fucking bizarre response.

I said:

I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up?

To clarify, I'm talking about false allegations, not rape allegations. I could have been more clear by saying "on charges of filing a false report." I thought that was inherent in "that she was actually making it up?"

I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.

The statistics of other rape cases have nothing to do with this rape case.

"Sorry Mr. Amore even though there isn't evidence against you in this rape case, It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. We will still continue to consider you a rapist"

If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.

Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol

"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"

"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"

"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"

That's how it came off in my mind.

If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.

I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.

lol It was more like

"Would you help that old man cross the road?"

"Yeah"

"What about if it's an old woman?"

"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."

"... Why would you specify that? Odd."

Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias

Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?

Look no further than Emmitt Till to understand false rape accusations. Just because it was a race issue as well doesn't mean shit. It's something that can be weaponized given the connotations of being accused of rape.

And yeah. Enzo isn't exactly the most sympathetic of examples, which makes this discussion all the more poignant.

Only destor but that's cuz he's a due process hoss so I respect him stubbornly sticking to his guns.

Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.

Your clarification didn't change anything.

If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.

Roberto Osuna, the closer of the Toronto Blue Jays has assault charges and a restraining order with a woman accuser. Nobody is defending him in this city. Believe me. With the details we know, it doesn't look good for him and it's very disappointing.

It is a case-by-case basis.

Yes. My basic standard of evidence doesn't change regardless of the accusation. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. Which is ridiculous. That's the whole point we've been trying to make.

I'm sorry for my part in leaving that as your interpretation. I hope me clarifying cleared things up for you.

Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.

How can people not get this?

* Most sexual assault allegations aren't baseless and there is not enough evidence to convict aren't mutually exclusively ideas. They can both be true.

Noid never liked Enzo.

I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.

The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.

That's cute.

She has lied quite a bit.

Just want to state very clearly that joking or not, the implication that I want Enzo to be a rapist is fucking ludicrous, distasteful, and I have contempt for it. Thanks, you're out.

Yep. Agree with this. :y:

These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.

That was literally in the quote.

It's completely logical to suggest that a person who has a history of being unstable and lacking credibility might not be credible. It's not "She's definitely lying". It's "She's not credible, so take it with a grain of salt." But for you, simply because he was accused, it needs to be made very clear that he could have still done it because women don't usually lie about being raped. Which is really skeevy. And I still have a feeling if it was some guy universally loved, this conversation wouldn't have started in the first place because no one would be desperate from now til the end of time to point out "Crazy chicks can get raped, too! Daniel Bryan still could have done it!"

Actually, I specified in that post that I don't think Dale would treat it differently, and that I hoped you wouldn't. It's just something that is definitely observable out there. You've got your back up like I aimed that at you.

Well sometimes I have to speak for Dale because he's getting soft at his age.

<table class="tborder" style="background: rgb(64, 81, 116); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border: 1px solid rgb(64, 81, 116); font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;" width="100%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="6" border="0" align="center"><thead><tr><td class="tcat" colspan="5" style="background: url(&quot;images/gradients/gradient_theadblue.gif&quot;) left top repeat-x rgb(51, 102, 153); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Latest Reputation Received</td></tr></thead><tbody id="collapseobj_usercp_reputation"><tr><td class="thead" style="background: url(&quot;images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif&quot;) left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;"> </td><td class="thead" style="background: url(&quot;images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif&quot;) left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;">Thread</td><td class="thead" style="background: url(&quot;images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif&quot;) left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;">Date</td><td class="thead" style="background: url(&quot;images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif&quot;) left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;" nowrap="nowrap">Posted By</td><td class="thead" style="background: url(&quot;images/gradients/gradient_theadblue2.gif&quot;) left top repeat-x rgb(33, 45, 69); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; padding: 4px;">Comment</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/rep...tation_neg.gif</td><td class="alt1Active" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">WWE releases Enzo Amore</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">05-17-2018 02:54 PM</td><td class="alt1" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">Noid</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">Not provable about the claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though, right?</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/rep...tation_neg.gif</td><td class="alt1Active" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">WWE releases Enzo Amore</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">05-17-2018 02:50 PM</td><td class="alt1" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">Noid</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">Ew</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.tpwwforums.com/images/rep...tation_neg.gif</td><td class="alt1Active" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">WWE releases Enzo Amore</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">05-17-2018 02:47 PM</td><td class="alt1" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" nowrap="nowrap">Noid</td><td class="alt2" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, &quot;lucida grande&quot;, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" width="50%">I hate the religious stuff, so I'm just going to neg-rep that misattribution. Also, you are being a dick and trivializing it while many are trying to have a somewhat serious conversation.</td></tr></tbody></table>

What religious stuff?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_w5JqQLqqTc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone soft at his age.

This is where we diverge big time. "Lacking credibility" is a conclusion you're working back from. Someone with a history of being unstable can still have credibility, even if there are times they are not credible. You don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater there -- it's a massive generalization.

We're in agreement that it doesn't mean "she's definitely lying," but where we diverge is where you say "take it with a grain of salt." THAT is skeevy. You can still take something seriously without throwing someone into prison for it automatically. I feel the need to stress that "crazy chicks can get raped too," because you have very strongly implied that if a woman is crazy her claim of rape lacks validity. I am sorry if I have misinterpreted you on that as you did me earlier, but I think that's even present in the "grain of salt" comment right there. Maybe I am placing too much weight on your specific choice of words there? I dunno, man. Dale could identify that women with substance abuse problems and a history of lies in the past could be more at risk. I don't see why it's such a problem for you.

And I said it to Savio, so I'll say it you: I resent the implication that I wouldn't take the same line with Daniel Bryan. I took the same line with Rich Swann, and I'll take the same line if it happens with someone else.