So 4 Yankee starters in a row pitched 8 strong innings getting the win...But our starting pitching sucks right?

Also, how good is El Duque since he's been back?:eek:

Your starting pitching sucks when Kevin Brown is on the DL and Mussina is underachieving. You have like six pitchers, I would assume Brown, Mussina, Vazquez, maybe El Duque start in the playoffs.

Johan and Radke are both pitching better than your 1 and 2 guys this year, but underestimating the small market is only an advantage to us.

Brown, Mussina, Vazquez, Hernandez, Loaiza

I guess one of those guys is gonna be left out :-\

If I was Torre I'd leave out Loaiza. If you're trying to make a playoff run I don't see how you can leave a former World Series MVP out of the rotation

I'd have to agree, Hernandez and Brown both have a fair amount of post season and world series experience, Vazquez has been the one constant this year for them and Mussina has been much been one of the top AL pitchers of the last decade +

I just wish the marlins could accuratly balance there pitching, if there roation does well, the offence does jack, if there offence puts good numbers, the pitching seems to struggle, i dont see us making the ground in the wildcard and the braves are on such a run i dont think we can catch them either

Some fan support and pro player wouldn't hurt either

A's called up Jairo Garcia :cool: This kid is the next Mariano if you were not aware

Edgar announced his retirement today. Things keep getting better for the M's. I bet Ichiro is gonna die in a plane crash tomorrow or something

that's true i dont know why they dont fill that staidum, because there not a bad team, they have a lot of decent players, but hopefully they will get there new staidum, a better ballpark and more people will go

Yeah there's something about Pro Player, the look of it that just isn't as appealing as most modern ballparks :-\

Also, it's pretty shit seeing Edgar go, always been a favourite of mine

I like Pro Player, at least it looks cool in video games.

The Miz, Ichiro is the man. I was so excited when I watched his average rise in the past two weeks. You've got yourself a clean stud in Ichiro. I'm glad he's back to form, and I like the M's too, its too bad they stink this year.

Its kind of funny how far I-Rod's average fell and how fast, did anyone else notice that?

My only connection to the baseball world in the past two weeks has been the Plattsburgh, New York newspaper's box scores, so I've been looking at all that crack.

Yeah Pudge was up around 370 not too long ago and it just plummited

I thought this was funny, a few days ago Frank Thomas was quoted saying "The way the Twins are playing right now we should be able to walk away with the division"

The last play of the Twins/Mariners game, the Twins announcers were speculating "It looks like his arm" after Koskie was down rolling on the ground and getting slid into by Bloomquist. Then they showed the replay and it was pretty apparant that he got a helmet to the groin, but the announcers couldn't say it, it seemed funny.

:rofl:

Where's all the love for the Dodgers? They've been as hot as the Cards since the all star break and haven't let up. Even with no real ace, they still continue to plod away with Beltre having an MVP year. If the Cards can get away with their rotation, I think the Dodgers rotation can take them on with Penny, Perez, Lima and Weaver with Gagne to close. Or maybe I'm just too die hard of a Dodgers fan. :p

I think they would have been better to keep Mota, but getting Finley was key and its cool that they're making the playoffs again. Also, I think Beltre should win the gold glove at third. Thats really all I think though.

Never gonna get to Gagne when the set up man sucks and keeps blowing leads

Dodgers should come back to Brooklyn

Scott...Rolen?

Scott Rolen isn't above and beyond way better than Beltre. I think Beltre makes more good plays and has more range.

No.

Rolen and Beltre is close but I'd give it to Rolen I think

Some people play it off like Beltre isn't even in the same class tho which isn't the case.

Thank you Stima. Outlaw have you ever even seen Beltre play?

Rolen will win the Gold Glove. Beltre is good, but he's not in Rolen's class.

I think Rolen will win it too, because he is more consistent and obviously he is a name brand player, which helps a lot. I just think that Beltre makes more cool plays, or web gems if you would.

Rolen is fantastic, some of the plays he makes are unbelievable, not that Beltre isn't brilliant, because he is, but i'd give it to Rolen aswell.

Yes.

Who do you guys think will end up MVP in the respective leagues?

I'm thinking Barry again right now in the NL, he's not my favourite guy but without him the Giants would be nowhere, he's the only one keeping things going there the whole season. If one of the St Louis guys wins it i'll be pissed. As for the AL, i'm biased and gonna say Gary Sheffield is up there for me, he's done it all this year for us banged up aswell.

AL will most likely be Manny or A-Rod, but possibly David Ortiz, Ivan Rodriguez or Michael Young.

NL I don't think will be Bonds this year, I would say probably Rolen as of right now.

Yeah, unfortunately people look at who has the most astonishing stats rather than the one who's actually been most valuable to the team. The Cards have Pujols, Renteria and Edmonds anyway, and Larry Walker now...I don't think Rolen has been as important to the Cards as Bonds has to the Giants.

Bonds #'s aren't as good as they have been and the Giants aren't going to make the playoffs whereas Rolen is having career numbers and leading the best team in the AL. I think he should get it.

Bear in mind he's walking about half the time he's up there.

<font size="2" color="#2d5980" face="trebuchet ms">Last time I checked MVP was "most valuable to your team". The Cardinals would still be in first place without Rolen, but the Giants would be down there with the D'backs without Bonds. And if Bonds saw half the pitches Rolen did, he could hit 80 home runs.

And last time I checked, the Giants were 2 games out of the wildcard. With how shit the Cubs and Padres have been playing lately, the Giants making the playoffs is a very real possibility.</font>

Ohh, shit, I forgot about that clause in the rulebook where it states

If thats the case then Lew Ford should be the AL MVP, unfortunately its not the case

Yup. Bonds is putting up great numbers in far less at bats than anyone else, basically in history, let alone this season, he's the only Giant with 10+ home runs, the Cards have what 8? And the Giants don't have the same depth in the rotation as the Cards who have 5 quality starters. Bonds as a team leader and offensive demon is what is keeping the Giants anywhere close, that and Felipe Alou who has done a great job.

Bonds is the opposite of a team leader, actually.

There is a case for both guys, Bonds is one of the best players ever and still putting up great numbers on a decent team this year. Rolen, IMO is the best overall player this year, he can hit for power and average, has tonns of RBI's, good HR's, gold glove quality fielding, and in the first half of the season Pujols, Edmonds, and Renteria were struggling a bit and Rolen lead their team to the best record on the NL.

Its really just a difference of oppinion on our parts, so I guess now we just wait for the voting, see what the writers think.

This could be the biggest series of the year in the AL central, lets hope it goes well

I reckon Rolen isn't far from being a shoe in for it tbh, barring an injury its gonna be hard to see anyone else getting it. Though i still think its Barry

AL: Vlad Guerrero
NL: Scott Rolen

I think Bonds should get it. Like everyone has said, without Bonds the Giants are nothing. Not to mention Pitcher won't even pitch to Barry, they are scared of him because of how good he is. I am not a Bonds fan at all but I think he should win it again this year.

Yesssssssssss! We get Yankees/Twins tonight, Mussina/Santana, should be great, first time we've seen Minnesota this year.

Also, Mark Teixera hitting for the cycle with 7 rbi's:eek:

Santana will work you, party in my room begins NOW

Yeah Bonds is a great leader, what with him being a dick to teamates and all.

I did change my mind by the way, I do think Bonds should be the MVP now. I just wanted to let everyone know. I looked at the stats etc again and yeah, he deserves it IMO.

Santana was pretty awesome last night. Mussina didn't do too badly considering it was his first start in a while, kept letting the lead of men get on base, which is what was his downfall really.

I think even without Bonds, the Giants would be a decent team. I wouldn't say they'd be subpar.

JT Snow, as old as he is, is having an AMAZING season. Jason Schmidt is probably going to win the Cy Young. The Giants have a bunch of young players that are actually starting to come through. Wayne Franklin is going to be a badass pitcher in the near future.

Alfonso will be never be amazing, but he's a solid 3B.
Deivi Cruz is solid at short.
Ray Durham is the man, offensively, and coming around defensively.
Pedro Feliz is waiting in the wings for his breakout season
Dustan Mohr has been on fire for the last month or so, with him getting playtime.
AJ Pierzinsky is stepping it up the last couple months and has become what everybody expected him to be when the Giants first got him.

Only thing is, they have too many aging outfielders (Tucker, Grissom) who are starting to show their age.
The rest of the team IS solid. Maybe not World Series caliber, but definitely playoff caliber. They WILL win the Wild Card this season. They will also lose in the first round, but... What i'm trying to convey is that they aren't "nothing" without Bonds.

They wouldn't be close in the wildcard without him, and they'd certainly be a lot more than 6 games back of the Dodgers. St Louis would probably still be winning the Central without Rolen, probably not as dominating but still on top

I actually doubt that they wouldn't be close in the wildcard race.

Sure, the pitching is a bit shakey. But as a team, the Giants have one of the highest team batting averages in the NL. Everybody's been saying that the Giants are nothing without Bonds since he arrived. No, they wouldn't be the best team obviously, but the team is a solid wild-card contending team without him, IMO of course.

We'll see in two seasons, when Bonds retires.

Fact of the matter is, you technically have no idea what you're talking about since you don't see them on a daily basis, as I do. You see what ESPN wants you to see, which is a Barry Bonds HR or a Barry Bonds walk. That's all they ever show, barring a Jason Schmidt gem.

When you see them everyday like I do, you'd see there's much more to the team than just Barry.

1 player DOES NOT make a difference. The Giants have a good all around team and good pitching. They would be in the playoffs with or without Bonds.

I think you phrased yourself wrong, because one player does make a difference, but not the difference between a 500 team and a wildcard winner, thats what you meant right?

You guys aren't looking at it fully. Taking Bonds away completely changes what the Giants are, they no longer have the big bat, their biggest star is now a guy who appears once every 5 or 6 days, Edgardo Alfonzo and JT Snow are their main offensive etc. Basically they lose that aura that Bonds brings, he's no longer smashing the ball all areas and getting the crowd going. Not having him is far bigger an impact than just losing the batting stats. Also, their batting average is high, it wouldn't be tops without Bonds hitting 350+ this year would it?

You are looking at it as if offense is the only thing that wins the game though. Take away Bonds and put someone else in there who's not as good as Bonds, but a good hitter and the Giants will still be where they are. Bonds is only a small piece to a good team.

Look at the Rangers of last year. They had A-Rod and what you just said about Bonds getting the crowd going can be said about A-ROD. Did the Rangers do good with A-ROD? Hell no. Who's the star player on the Rangers right now? Who's the star player on the Indians? Who was the star player on the Angels in 2002? Yankees in 98? Nobody. Each guy was the star on the team. There was no one guy that made a difference. 9 guys playing good baseball make a difference.

Technically the Twins have never had a superstar pitcher and were on track to win our third division championship in three years, to add to Loose Cannons point.

I'd say Santana is a star pitcher, the second half he's been amazing, i had no idea how unstoppable he's been.

Hate to be a fan, but all Mulder has over Santana is like three wins and three losses..


Santana > Mulder
Strike Outs

Santana > Mulder
ERA

Etc. Etc.

I'd have to agree there, not taking anything away from Mulder mind, Santana's gotta be up there in contention for the AL Cy Young, whether he'll get it or not is another matter.

El Duque looked human for the first time this year last night, but i reckon he's gonna be a shoe for the post season rotation.

Damn you Gagne and your last two outings! Come on man and get your act together dude!! :-\

I don't watch much Twins game but Mark Mulder is not the AL Cy Young, his ERA is like 5 since the All Star Break and the wins are due to ridiculous run support. Tim Hudson has been the A's bets pithcer this year

You're kidding me right?

Let's just take a look at the stats and you decide:

Hudon

W: 8
L 4
ERA: 2.95
IP: 128.1
CG: 3
SHO: 2
SO: 66


MULDER:
W: 16
L: 4
ERA: 3.75
IP: 185.0
CG: 5
SHO: 1
SO: 119

Now, Hudon's been injured. I know. But saying he has been the A's best pitcher this year is not right.

And Santana has got Mulder out numbered on a lot of stats. It's going to be close.

You're an idiot. Mulder has 25 starts and Hudson has 18. Look at the ERA, Hudson has been more effective. If Mulder had the run support that Hudson has gotten this season he would probably be creeping up on 10 losses. Hudson hasn't gotten shit all year and still has a very respectable record.

Hudson is the A's ace imo despite Mulder's awesome year

I'm really impressed with the way Jon Lieber has been pitching recently, he's been hot and cold all year but hopefully he'll carry it on, its not gonna be easy for Torre to choose 4 from the 6

Didn't take long for the name calling did it? I'm looking at the stats and who's done more for the A'S? Mulder. Your looking at it like ERA decides if you are the better pitcher or not. Look at the Innings Pitched and the CG. Mulder is way up there. Best in the American League. Every other stat is Mulder. Yeah, Hudson has been injured. I know, I said that. How do you know his ERA wouldn't be higher if he had more starts? You can't say Hudson has been the A's best pitcher. Mulder has pitched a ton of more games and has done a lot more. Doesn't matter if Hudson has not had the oppurtunity. Mulder has him on everything.

I'll give you Hudson has been the best after the AS break, but ALL SEASON, IT'S Mulder.

Yeah, lets look at stats some more. Stats never lie. How many Hudson starts have you watched this year? Mulder?

And your run support claim is crap. I just looked at all his games. The A's had games in there where they scored 13, 16, and 11 runs, but Mulder still only gave up 3 or 4 runs over 7 innings. The games where he gave up a lot of runs, the A's have lost. It's not like he's giving up 12 runs and the A's are scoring 16.

so, you're telling me the stats are bullshit? Well if they are then my whole argument is bullshit and I'll say Hudson is the better pitcher.

Since you seem to like to dig up stats (which are always right), how about you search this one for me: runs per game in Hudson starts and runs per game in Mulder starts

Stats aren't bullshit but you shouldn't look into them so much. Adam Dunn has more homeruns than Barry Bonds this year, who's the better power hitter?

^^Yeah, but that's one stat. Like I said before with the ERA, one stat doesn't mean you're the better pitcher. Look, I like Hudson and I think he is one hell of a pitcher. But this year, the whole year, Mulder has done more for the A's. That's all I'm saying.

And I'm looking for your run support stat.

That part I agree with. Mulder and Durazo are the A's MVPs. All I'm saying is Hudson has pitched better this year and would probably have better numbers if he had equal oppurtunities.

Dammit, what was I arguing then? :lol: This is why I hate arguing on messsage boards.

Okay, if you don't look at the fact that Hudson's missed games, then yeah I'll agree that's Hudson's pitched better. But it's hard for me to say that when Mulder had had a lot more chances to fuck up.

I couldn't find the dam run support stat. :mad: It's going to be higher for Mulder anyway cause he's pitched in more games.

But Opponent Batting Average is Higher for Hudson by like 20 points.

Lol, I tried to rep you guys but I already have in this thread apparantly :sad:

Beltre is freakin amazing! 4 homers in 2 days, including one off Smoltz. Beltre for MVP!! :love:

Who you guys got for manager of the year?

My picks
NL: Bobby Cox(Atlanta Braves)
AL: Buck Showalter(Texas Rangers)

I'm very undecided about manager of the year at the moment. With the Cy Young/Gold Glove/MVP i'm getting fairly set in my picks

My picks as of right now

AL MVP: Vlad Guerrero
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL CY: Johan Santana
NL CY: Jason Schmidt
AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby
NL ROTY: Khalil Greene
AL MOTY: Buck Showalter
NL MOTY: Jim Tracy

Mine as of right now:

AL MVP: Gary Sheffield
NL MVP: Barry Bonds

AL Cy Young: Johan Santana
NL Cy Young: Jason Schmidt

AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby

undecided about the rest so far

Do you want me to slap you now or later? :mad:

Hahaha. why? you a braves fan?

My picks:

AL MVP: Vladimir Guerrero
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL CY: Johan Santana
NL CY: Jason Schmidt
AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby
NL ROTY: Matt Holliday
AL MOTY: Buck Showalter
NL MOTY: Bobby Cox

AL MVP: A-Rod
NL MVP: Bonds
AL CY: Santana
NL CY: Schmidt
AL ROTY: Crosby (You're all lucky Lew and Morneau aren't eligable and Mauer was injured :mad:
NL ROTY: No Idea?
AL MOTY: Torre
NL MOTY: Cox (underrated)

Yes. :mad:

Yeah I think Cox should actually get MOTY this year. I'm always down on him because everyone praises him like a legend but this year he has done really well with what he has methinks. :y:

If Cox is so underrated life all of you guys are saying, don't you think he should have a little more to show for than 1 championship in 13 tries.

See my post. ;)

Ive never been a huge fan of him for this reason, but this year I applaud him for what he has done, whether they wins a championship/division title or not.

Yea, I just think Cox has done an amazing job this year. He lost Maddux, Lopez and Sheffield and then made some great moves with Estrada, Drew and John Thompson??? He deserves a lot of credit when all the experts out there dismissed Atlanta as a 3rd place team at best in the east.

I say he is underrated because of all the division titles, world series appearances, winning seasons etc. Maybe they only won the World Series once, but most of those times he probably wasn't coaching the better team, I don't think he is unable to manage a World Series champion. The way I look at it is that he has managed so many different teams so far when, this year especially, his team is not the most talented by far. I don't think he should have won MOY's every year, but as a whole I consider him a pretty good manager.

Well the 1999 Series the Braves were ridiculously better than the Yankees. Torre outmanaged him badly.

He made those moves? Ever heard of a General Manager? The Braves have one of the best, too abd their manager can never do anything with the players he gets him.

Well, i understand the GM made those moves but I just feel Cox has done a great job fitting those players in this year after losing so many essential players from last year. Thats compared to lets say Williams in Houston who got Clemens and Pettite and Beltran and continued to lose. I just feel that makes Cox a legit manager of the year.

The Braves are lucky guys like JD Drew and Johnny Estrada have had awesome seasons as much as they are for having Cox. He's done the same thing he's always done, which is a good job, this is hardly a crappy team he's got.

They have a lot of solid players, but you can't say you didn't say they were going to suck this year. Everyone was saying J "DL" DRew (pure comedy right there) was going to bust and whatnot, but they've just played great together, and Chipper is FINALLY coming around. They don't really have a superstar, so I say Cox is doing a better job than he normally does (AKA what Miz referred to :mad: )

The Braves don't have the most talented team in the NL East this year, at least in my opinion they don't, but this is why I think they are winning:

My schools track team is a dynasty, we had won six straight state championships going into this year, but going into my senior year we clearly did not have the same talent on our team that we had in the years past. What happened, with good coaching and the motivation of not failing the guys before us, we pulled together and in the state meet we ended only four points behind a team much better than us (826 to 830, so four points is unbelievably close).

I think that is the same thing with the Braves this year, they are the best team over the past 15 years, but then this year they suddenly lost a lot of their talent. In the beginning they were playing like they should have, a 500 team trailing Phily and Florida. Then, when everyone else knew they weren't as good and were glad that they wouldn't be going to the playoffs for the first time in forever, they had something to prove and the players started playing harder and harder, and now because of good coaching and the tradition that goes with them, they look to prove everyone wrong and make the playoffs again.

If you have never been on a team like this, that may sound out there, but I guarantee you that their history is definately part of why they broke out. Its the same thing with teams like the Packers and the Yankees, you don't want to be the players on that team to lose, you are playing behind great tradition, and it really does help you win.

Good point BCWWF. Mike Hampton and Chipper both finally coming around certainly hasn't hurt them either. I think with the Phillies it's down a good part to the disappointing pitching. As for the central, the Cubs and Astros just shouldn't be so far back with the talent they have, i don't care how good St Louis are.

Meanwhile, the Dodgers got back on the winning track by spanking the Expos and the Angels continue to win even when they do things the wrong way (like giving up 5 runs in five innings and stranding an army on the bases). :D

Here's to a Freeway World Series (yes, I can dream).

Alexis Rios in Toronto, had he been given the chance to play all year, would be the AL ROY.

Crosby is good too, but keep your eye on Rios in the future. [/Nostradamus]