when it first started i really liked it. I still mostly positive about it but its definitely losing sight of its intent.

Can people stop talking about Dave Meltzer and answer my above question about Dave Meltzer

Who?

No, we aren't talking about Jim Neidhart right now.

Rey Fenix has started talking publicly about AEW. He sounds frustrated that Tony is trying to hold him on injury time because when Fenix needed a doctor, AEW ignored him for months.

Shady

tiny khan

Interest in the AEW product seems to be rapidly diminishing and Tony isn’t doing anything to course correct. I don’t know how anyone can predict anything other than increased drops for them.

Dare we say it, AEW is in Shambles??? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

i don't know the whole story and i don't really care that much but someone asked rey fenix if he tried punching jack perry to get out of AEW and that made me laugh

Dave has taken a new approach. He’s talking about how great AEW is in terms of quality but now acknowledges how it’s doing poorly in the ratings. He’s now admitting that Rampage “only” got 177k viewers. But it was a great Rampage.

Who has more undying love? Jacob Fatu for Solo or Dave for AEW?

Willie Mack has been pulled from GCW shows because of the conflict between those two promotions. For those who haven’t followed, wrestler Effy made comments about AEW running the Hammerstein Ballroom so close to GCW. He pointed out that Tony Khan and AEW had financial advantages that GCW didn’t and made a quip about Tony Khan being paid by Shad to go away.

I had no clue Wille Mack even worked for AEW. His last match was for ROH in October lol.

I think we’re beginning to see Tony Khan crumble. He’s entering his Caligula phase.

I saw Dave say that AEW did better than NXT in terms of coverage area of the key demo. They are literally inventing shit to claim moral victories at this point lol

I’m sure advertisers fall for that and rush to make AEW a more valuable commodity than WWE programming.

Kamille is allegedly unhappy in AEW. I don’t know what she expected.

Dave saying stupid shit like AEW is going to be the second most profitable wrestling company ever when the new TV deal starts shows what an absolute idiot he us. AEW isn't profitable until they make back the initial $100 million startup cost, or the $200 million estimated losses they have had over the last 5 years.

He also doesn't seem to understand that Tony was willing to lose $40 million a year before the new TV deal, yet somehow thinks Tony having access to more money from WBD will make Tony more fiscally responsible. Like Tony won't keep overpaying his roster and buying expensive music and booking 20,000 seat arenas to sell 2000 tickets.

Dave counting his chickens could come back to bite him. If Sesame Street can get dropped by WBD, AEW could be in for a rude shock.

I don’t trust Dave’s Meltzer math on the subject. Tony is just going to spend more even IF the deal isn’t performance-geared.

Why? Confused by this, what should people be using?

AEW’s revenue is almost entirely from TV rights too, which is a relatively modern adjustment — at least to the degree where it is so significant. When Dave gloats about AEW’s “success,” bypassing every metric of actual popularity, he knows that he’s being disingenuous and grading on a sliding scale.

AEW stans will reject the idea of comparing ratings retroactively, but have no problem slipping modern TV rights into the discussion to compare AEW to past promotions.

Dave Meltzer and his ilk will also use AEW’s stadiums as talking points, overlooking that the goal was to run markets more reliability and sustainably back in the day. WCW did have some success in bigger venues, but their goal wasn’t to pack one massive building once a year (something AEW struggles to do anyway). They were also selling out their basketball arenas on the same night as the WWF was running theirs.

To be fair, AEW does seem to be going to smaller buildings now. What I don’t think has been factored in is how potentially damaging this could be to the fanbase’s perception of the product. It’s a concession of defeat — a necessary one and one that’s long overdue — but a concession nonetheless. I think you’re going to still see them struggle to move tickets.

I am convinced they did zero market research before announcing their Australian show. Anyone could have told you it was absolutely insane to book a stadium in Brisbane for wrestling. They didn’t even talk to Harley Cameron who is on their roster. That’s the brain-trust there. I don’t know why anyone would expect more planning or competency to be implemented elsewhere.

Mostly because Dave's important metrics change every week so no matter what, it means AEW is doing great. 18-49 only matters when AEW wins, otherwise he spins it. Let's not forget when Dave explained how in Canada, the demo is 18-54, and AEW won that demo, because Canadian ratings let Dave hype up how great AEW was doing that week.

When NXT got 680,000 viewers with a .17 demo, and Dynamite got 573,000 viewers with a .17 demo, Dave declared that AEW won, because .17 in the demo on TBS is better than .17 on the CW.

Nevermind that 107,000 less people watched, or that AEW's payroll is easily 20 times of what NXT's payroll is, or that CW is paying NXT 5 times less than WBD is paying AEW. But none of those points allow Dave to spin that a .17 demo is better than a .17 demo, which defeats Dave's purpose of covering for AEW's failure to grow their brand whatsoever.

Bingo. Dave has been quoted as touting viewership as the most important metric just prior to AEW’s debut too. That changed when Dynamite debuted with a comparatively impressive demo:viewership number. Now he just tries to claim that Dynamite wins because…Dynamite.

The 18-49 demo is an oversimplified and unspecific holdover from yesteryear anyway. Households and the way people consume media have changed — as have the interests of advertisers and other TV stakeholders. Dave is out of touch, if you even halfway take him genuinely.

The 18-49 demo is the primary metric that Nielsen uses to order their ratings. This is nothing to do with Meltzer. I want to know why you think the entire US TV industry is using the wrong indicator, and what you think they should use. What metrics are the advertisers and stakeholders that you mention using?

What percentage of posts in this thread are about Dave/ratings?

Metric matters when AEW wins.
Metric importance changes when AEW doesn't win.

It is not the metric itself, but how Dave Meltzer specifically changes what the number means from week to week to fit his narrative.

Audiences can be more accurately pinpointed now too. A few years ago, the target was Asian-American audiences. The 18-49 tells you nothing about that. Its importance was conceptualized in the 70s. Advertisers could target the whole family through the 18-49 male, who would likely control the family’s spendings. Times have changed.

We also have YouTube, streaming and other ways to reach high spenders. Cable — specifically second-tier wrestling — is not the best way to reach the audiences you want to reach.

Needless to say, Collision didn’t do too well on TNT against Saturday Night’s Main Event on NBC and Peacock. I can’t wait for Meltzer to say the show actually did better than last week because the demo rating went up or that it’s unfair to count this week. Maybe he’ll find a way to adjust Collision by 2.1 million?

For AEW, their biggest revenue source is their US television contract. That money comes from advertising. The value/effectiveness of that advertising is measured, stop me if I'm wrong, by Nielson, who consider 18-49 to be the key metric.

Now you're saying that cable isn't the best way to reach audiences - but your original point was that "the demo" was not the best way to evaluate cable hotness, so you were talking about cable. Please be clear.

Why do you do this.. :|

Nielsons ratings are so inaccurate that theyve been ruled in court that theyvebeen barred from being used to uphold contracts at any level. The MRC disaccredited Nielson in 2021. After 19 months in 2023 Nielson was able to get reacredited by the MRC. They still are working to get their legal standing back.



Tl;dr they arent exactly the industry standard

The larger point, though, is that those numbers are being cherrypicked for moving goalpoasts.

For example, a lot of responses as of late have been about how Meltzer will spin the importance - or lack thereof depending on the week - of the overall number or a particular demographic if hit helps AEW sound like they're doing better than WWE in any way. However, if WWE is the clear victor in any way, it will be deflected in "Oh, well those numbers aren't important" or "the lack of ratings are the fault of [insert excuse or event that is always something beyond AEW's control] or "this isn't a competition anyway" type of drivel.

Getting the supposedly coveted cash cow of "18-34 males", overall, doesn't mean what it used to. Neilson isn't compiling what is being streamed on phones or for people catching clips via YouTube or social media, or even the potential (but not likely) bump they'd get from people who load shit on their DVRs but possibly never get around to watching it.

But again, it isn't about what AEW is or isn't getting. It's not about the supposed boatload of money they got from TV rights. It's about projecting superiority for their flagship broadcasts in particular against WWE's training vessel c-show... on the occasions where there's a win or a tie.

"It only counts if we're winning" type shit.

It's essentially the same thing at this point. Even though ROH is allegedly a separate thing, at least half of the "regular" roster consists of AEW contracted talent (other half were folks under contract while the OG company went under), although sometimes used in a different capacity. For example, Wheeler Yuta is supposed to be a big deal there, but on AEW TV, he has perpetual lackey energy.

Willie Mack had wrestled a few matches for AEW both before and after Tony's ROH purchase. And again, even though they are supposedly two different wrestling companies under two different corporate umbrellas, it's all Tony's toybox and he can do whatever he wants. Like take his toys back when he gets his feelings hurt.

So like between 90%-100%?

It's only increased because the ratings thread got bounced for being too toxic.

I seem to remember a lot of gifs of Seth Rollins dancing being posted by somebody :rofl:

Excellent post.

The demos aren’t power levels. Yet you have Meltzer comparing them like a 0.0007 on cable is more valuable than a 0.0008 on network. The value advertisers put into content is going to be determined by things more nuanced or self-determined than the general 18-49 demo. There’s a big difference between a 39 yr old trucker from Alabama and an 18 yr old kid from Philadelphia.

Advertisers decided a while ago that wrestling just wasn’t as valuable as other things of a similar or smaller demo. And when it comes to wrestling, WWE is going to carry favour based on their brand penetration. It’s ridiculous to look at the numbers Dynamite gets, compare part of them to part of what NXT gets, then claim that Dynamite somehow “wins” anything from it.

The bitch of it is that AEW could have established their own brand at this point; to have a long-game shot at being the Pepsi to WWE's Coke*... as opposed to a children's lemonade stand that sells snowcones flavored with piss and Red Bull. When they get told nobody wants to drink piss outside of a VERY specialized market, and even there, that urine is curated from a particular type of source that is likely to be exclusively "young, attractive, wauflike, disease free females with a diet that lacks things like asparagus" instead of the male communal piss trough they insist on drawing from. You know, since they don't need advice. They are doing "fine" with their piss beverage, and anyone saying otherwise "are just haters". 18-49 year olds love our yellow snowcones! Until they find out. But that's not AEW's fault. The local Jr High volleyball team is playing at the school across the street. They got their rights deal money, so we can just keep selling Frozen Piss Bull to the ever dwindling audience that knows our greatness and are willing to LEARN... unless you question who a random lucha newcomer is, because you should know from Cagematch or intrinsically IYKYK!




*if I wasn't going to stay with the beverage analogy, I would have gone for the Coca-Cola vs cocaine low hanging fruit of either TK or NWA. Just letting you know I thought of it even though I didn't go that way.

The problem is clear and in an ideal world it would signify to arm chair bookers everywhere that no matter how much they like the smell of their own farts they dont know shit about booking.

It wont though. Theyll think the problem is localized to TK. It isnt. Just like this should also signal that if you had infinite money you wouldnt suddenly become successful. You would fail miserably and die broke.

Promoting events is hard. Running a business is hard. You need talent as much as you need opportunity. And yeah holy fuck does tk not have any. The guy walked in with a carefully constructed product with hot angles and hot workers and a counter culture it factor that you cant manufacture and squandered it entirely.

It wouldnt fix because AEW is a meme now but he's gotta give up the book. Its not working. Its objectively not working.

That’s very true. There are so many intangibles when it comes to running things. TK doesn’t seem to have the talent to manage people — especially wrestlers and their politics. It’s also more than just putting names on paper against each other and having someone go over with a move. Being a worker helps you understand how to book through the action — not just around it.

You’d think Tony would have removed himself for those hero points by the now, but I think there is something in the psyche of people like TK and Dixie Carter that drives them to spend their money playing wrestling promoter that prevents them from stepping back.

Dymamite mint tonight.