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-   -   Super Smash Bros. 4 (WiiU/3DS) (https://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=119940)

Fignuts 08-24-2014 11:22 PM

Probably WiiU

Drakul 08-25-2014 02:20 AM

I'm definitely getting the Wii U version. If I happen to have £209 when the 3DS version is out, I'll get the Smash Bros Limited Edition 3DS.

Mercenary 08-25-2014 03:10 AM

Wii u

Emperor Smeat 08-25-2014 03:35 PM

Someone who managed to get an early copy of the 3DS version has been leaking a bunch of stuff on Youtube recently.

5 unannounced hidden characters were revealed along with a few other details.

Quote:

A huge chunk of the hype for a new Smash Bros. games involves slowly announcing what characters are in the game. Some of those may have just been preempted by a person named "Izat True" on YouTube.

If you're adverse to spoilers, you might want to stop reading now.

While I don't normally report on leaks or rumors, it's hard to argue with these videos, which appear to reveal fighters like
SPOILER: show
Bowser Jr. and Dark Pit
in the 3DS version of the upcoming Super Smash Bros.

The person playing in these videos is listed as "ESRB0083," which would suggest the copy being played is an early version submitted to the Entertainment Software Ratings Board. One way or the other, it wouldn't be a surprise if these videos magically disappeared later today.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/yo...ros/1100-4999/

Also revealed to be hidden characters were:
SPOILER: show
The dog from Duck Hunt, Shulk from Xenoblade Chronicles, and Dr Mario

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...8854-26736.jpg



EDIT: Turns out it all the videos weren't from an actual copy of the game but instead from videos Nintendo sent to the ESRB recently for an official ratings application. Nintendo and/or the ESRB had the videos removed from Youtube.

EDIT #2: Also turns out there were 12 hidden characters revealed and not just 5. Seven are returning characters while four are brand new.
http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-ful...d-280145.phtml

Big Vic 08-25-2014 03:47 PM

One of those characters.........really?

road doggy dogg 08-25-2014 04:06 PM

Bordering on overkill now

DaveBrawl 08-25-2014 04:11 PM

Need to practice some with Smash Bros. so my girlfriend doesn't smoke me like she did in Guitar Hero. Need to figure out some strategies with Samus.

I would say I need to stop bragging on things I can't really do, but where's the fun in that.

#NotSSB4related

Drakul 08-25-2014 04:17 PM

Dunno if the news is out yet because I'm avoiing reading any posts here. The roster has apparently leaked.

I now have to avoid anything that isn't an official Smash Bros announcement. I hate having reveals ruined for me.

road doggy dogg 08-25-2014 04:30 PM

I couldn't help looking at the spoiler up there. What's the "official" character count (that have been revealed, no leaks) at?

road doggy dogg 08-25-2014 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBrawl (Post 4497206)
Need to practice some with Smash Bros. so my girlfriend doesn't smoke me like she did in Guitar Hero. Need to figure out some strategies with Samus.

I would say I need to stop bragging on things I can't really do, but where's the fun in that.

#NotSSB4related

I could never play Samus well. Absolutely love going against Samus though, buckets 4 days

Emperor Smeat 08-25-2014 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4497225)
I couldn't help looking at the spoiler up there. What's the "official" character count (that have been revealed, no leaks) at?

Around 37. Slightly less than Brawl but now with those hidden characters, a lot more than Brawl had.

Drakul 08-28-2014 03:05 AM

Character customisation.
https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.ne...zSYAKt4bdX9TN-

Poit 08-28-2014 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4496882)
Question for TPWW peoples...


Any of you getting this for 3DS? Or just Wii U? Probably not buying a Wii U now but will be playing the shit outta Smash on 3DS

I'll probably get both versions. I assume there'll be some sort of connectivity between the two?

Emperor Smeat 08-28-2014 04:50 PM

Don't think they've revealed much about it but there is connectivity between both versions.

Won't be able to do cross-platform play as an option.

Drakul 08-28-2014 06:04 PM

More 3DS music.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZCkqI2LOALg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0KYKORqrpTE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eAJVOwYU2mM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ylF-kt1MmII" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Savio 08-28-2014 06:37 PM

Where can I see those leak videos?

Drakul 08-29-2014 08:26 AM

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZUTU4OZrjzY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

road doggy dogg 08-29-2014 08:29 AM

all these Fire Emblem chars just end up looking like "generic fighting game characters", seem out of place in Smash Bros

oh well, I'll never use them myself so no skin off my back. game&watch #1

Drakul 08-29-2014 08:29 AM

Register the 3DS and Wii U versions of the game on Club Nintendo before a set date and get a free Smash Bros soundtrack.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...46010720_o.jpg

road doggy dogg 08-29-2014 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4500215)
all these Fire Emblem chars just end up looking like "generic fighting game characters", seem out of place in Smash Bros

oh well, I'll never use them myself so no skin off my back. game&watch #1

oh I guess that guy is from Xenoblade, same thing still applies

Drakul 08-29-2014 09:25 AM

Yeah, we have far far too many androgynous anime guys waving swords arounds.

Poit 08-29-2014 02:36 PM

He doesn't seem all that androgynous. From the Smash Bros. Facebook page:


Drakul 08-29-2014 02:37 PM

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/omeOylQYkuU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Drakul 08-29-2014 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poit (Post 4500523)
He doesn't seem all that androgynous. From the Smash Bros. Facebook page

Still has an effeminate face, anime eyes and a sword.

road doggy dogg 08-29-2014 02:41 PM

want it so bad

road doggy dogg 08-29-2014 02:41 PM

^ in response to the 3DS video, not generic_sword_user_#6 talk

Lock Jaw 08-29-2014 03:30 PM

What kind of a dumb name is Shulk.

All it makes me think of is She-Hulk

Drakul 08-29-2014 04:58 PM

Same. It sounds like Sean Connery saying the word "sulk".

Kalyx triaD 08-30-2014 06:50 PM

Loving all the sword warriors in the game. I lean toward the humanoids in Smash.

Lock Jaw 08-30-2014 07:27 PM

Mr. Game & Watch and Ness #1

Drakul 08-31-2014 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD (Post 4500952)
Loving all the sword warriors in the game. I lean toward the humanoids in Smash.

Would it have killed them to have picked a character with a hammer, axe or other melee weapon?

We have 8 sword characters, 9 if you add Pit but he's not exacty the same. 10 if we don't bother about being humanoid and include Metaknight. Over a quarter of the revealed roster weild a blade for regular attacks. That's too many, I'd say.

Kalyx triaD 08-31-2014 05:25 AM

Dedede has a hammer.

Drakul 08-31-2014 07:14 AM

I know. 1 cartoon penguin has a mallet. 9 humanoid anime-style characters have swords.

Kalyx triaD 08-31-2014 01:32 PM

Many are stars of a franchise where swords are prominent. I don't think anything's 'missing'. There's no checklist.

I mean, there's Duckhunt Dog.

Drakul 08-31-2014 03:08 PM

Spoilers, Kalyx. It's a quirky character too. The exact kind of character I didn't want spoiled for me.

One sword wielding Zelda character
One sword wielding Fire Emblem character
One sword wielding Xenoblades character
That would have been fine.

Any other characters from those series could have had another weapon.

Kalyx triaD 08-31-2014 04:17 PM

Oh fuck, I thought the list was well known.

Glad I didn't mention the rest then.

Savio 08-31-2014 04:19 PM

Not many characters use a hammer in games that i can think of.

Destor 08-31-2014 04:57 PM

If this were a normal fighting game the sword complaints would be valid...since this is an all-star game its rubbish. Popular game characters use swords. Not this games fault.

Drakul 08-31-2014 05:27 PM

Toon Link could have based his entire move set around the Wind Waker. FE could have used an axe, hammer or lance based character.

Destor 08-31-2014 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakul (Post 4501275)
Toon Link could have based his entire move set around the Wind Waker. FE could have used an axe, hammer or lance based character.

and yet you would be trading off what people expect (and want) from their beloved characters to get away from you seeing sword animations

Savio 08-31-2014 06:26 PM

Does anyone want to tell Drakul that Duck Hunt Dog uses a sword in this too?

Kalyx triaD 08-31-2014 06:33 PM

I would be disappointed if there's no Zapper.

Emperor Smeat 09-02-2014 05:26 PM

Quote:

As expected, Super Smash Bros. is going to have an All-Star mode. Functioning as a survival battle of sorts, you'll have a "limited" amount of recovery items and no continues. What's really cool about All-Star battle is that you'll fight characters chronologically, from Pac-Man, through Mario, through Donkey Kong and Luigi.

Here's the twist -- you'll automatically unlock the mode from the start, but it will not be complete until you've earned every fighter in the game. Naturally, this implies that All-Star mode isn't a requirement to unlock characters.
http://www.destructoid.com/super-sma...e-280542.phtml

Emperor Smeat 09-05-2014 04:08 PM

For those interested, the release date for the special edition Smash Bros 3DS XL was leaked to be September 19th. Doesn't include the game though.

http://i.imgur.com/WpIuCgJ.jpg

road doggy dogg 09-05-2014 04:41 PM

A "Smash Bros edition" that does not in fact come with Smash Bros. baffling

FourFifty 09-06-2014 05:09 PM

I'm not a big fan of all the sword fighters (mainly the 4 fire emblem fighters, plus Shulk) going on in this game. Without looking at rumors so far that's my biggest complaint about, which is really trivial.
Looking at rumors...
SPOILER: show
Just heard someone on the internet, where no one lies ever, that Ridley is lined up to be playable. I really don't want to see this happen. Ridley should just be a boss. That would be fun.
And the duck hunt dog... I'm not going to play as him, but I will beat the shit out of him with Little Mac.

Emperor Smeat 09-08-2014 03:58 PM

Nintendo's Treehouse team is hosting an 8 hour live stream of Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS on September 12th. Also teased they will be showing off some other games during the stream.

http://i.imgur.com/UAuIkX3.jpg

Emperor Smeat 09-09-2014 06:13 PM

Some good news and Bad news regarding the 3DS version.

The good news being the game will support the use of the second stick on the upcoming New 3DS model. Same for the extra shoulder buttons.

The bad news being it will not support the use of the Circle Pad Pro accessory for the original 3DS and 3DS XL models.

http://www.destructoid.com/super-sma...o-280949.phtml

road doggy dogg 09-10-2014 08:15 AM

Dammit, way to make me shell out even more money, Nintendo

Kalyx triaD 09-10-2014 01:57 PM

You got the circle pro thing?

road doggy dogg 09-10-2014 03:49 PM

Nah but I have just the base 3DS. I'll try the game out without the inclusion of that second stick and see how it feels. Might just rough it that way

Kalyx triaD 09-10-2014 05:14 PM

Well as far as Smash goes the second stick will most likely be for smash attacks. People can live without really (not me, though, the Smash Stick really helps me).

road doggy dogg 09-10-2014 11:58 PM

Indeed, I'm the same way. I know a lot of people "look down" upon the Smash stick but fuckit, if I can make a smash attack only require one motor function instead of 2 and eliminate that 1/10 times I screw it up, I'm taking it!

That being said, even on the Gamecube I didn't tend to use the C-stick terribly often so I'm sure I can adapt to life without

Mercenary 09-11-2014 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4508600)
Dammit, way to make me shell out even more money, Nintendo

Cause they hate us?

Emperor Smeat 09-11-2014 06:14 PM

The game features a special final boss who is a lot stronger than the traditional Master Hand when played on the hardest difficulty. The boss is called Master Core.

http://www.destructoid.com/beware-of...--281044.phtml

Poit 09-11-2014 10:10 PM

i'm more excited about the new Earthbound stage.

FourFifty 09-12-2014 04:39 AM

I'm digging the promotional works on the 3ds market place for Smash Bros. I'm just torn between getting fire emblem and kid icarus.

Only going to download one of them. Any suggestions?

FourFifty 09-12-2014 04:45 AM

....the duck hunt dog has to be a drunken bet that went too far.

Clerk 09-12-2014 08:03 AM

Another childrens game the social degenerates make a thread about and drewl like children over the silly game.

Let's face the facts, the game is for children not adults.

Why not try an adult game like Battlefield or Call of Duty?

Grow up and get a life ffs. Stop with the childish bullshit.

Big Vic 09-12-2014 08:37 AM

The troll is trolling

Clerk 09-12-2014 09:30 AM

Bad rep for telling the truth is straight comical. I want to be the person with the most negative rep

FourFifty 09-12-2014 09:57 AM

I cannot get that dog out of my head. He looks sawft....

I'm going to make my mii a gun fighter and get redemption for all the times he laughed at me.

Emperor Smeat 09-12-2014 03:00 PM

Nintendo of America currently sending demo codes to Platinum members of Club Nintendo while everyone else gets the demo about a week later. Each email sent includes 4 demo access codes (1 for the Platinum member and 3 extra to give away to friends).

Quote:

The Big N says select Platinum members of Club Nintendo (who gained said status between July 1, 2013 and June 30, 2014) have been sent four download codes (one for them, and three to share with friends) for the much anticipated demo, so anyone with a Platinum membership best check their emails. Everyone else on the other (Master)hand, will have to wait until next week when the demo officially launches on the North American and European eShops.

The demo contains the Battlefield stage and Mario, Link, Pikachu, Mega Man, and the Villager as playable characters. Local multiplayer with friends who have the game downloaded to their 3DS/2DS systems has also been enabled. Oh and unlike the eShop version of the demo, this Platinum special can be played an unlimited number of times, the eShop demo is limited to 30 plays.
http://www.screwattack.com/news/supe...t-another-week

Emperor Smeat 09-12-2014 05:47 PM

Wii U version confirmed to support the 3DS itself as a controller option.
http://www.destructoid.com/use-your-...--281123.phtml


Nintendo's Treehouse is currently hosting their 8-hour live stream of the game.
http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-...y-281112.phtml


According to Destructoid, World Map spectator mode contains a spoiler of revealing all the hidden characters in the game if its viewed/played before unlocking everyone.
http://www.destructoid.com/super-sma...n-281101.phtml


At least for the 3DS version, it takes around 120 matches to unlock all the secret characters if other modes are not played. In terms of comparisons, only parts of Melee's and Brawl's rosters were unlocked by that point.
http://www.destructoid.com/smash-bro...k-281095.phtml

FourFifty 09-12-2014 07:10 PM

So platinum club nintento members got 4 codes for a demo today. I really think Nintendo could turn a nice profit by selling these demos for a low price. Hell, I'd but the demo for 5 bucks, plus I'm pretty sure my wife pre-ordered the game for me.

Savio 09-12-2014 07:28 PM

Nintendo wants to pass the profit for their subscribers :)

FourFifty 09-12-2014 07:39 PM

Yea, it's good for business. If you want perks, earn them. You can't buy loyalty. If I would have known about this months ago I would have gotten a few more games worth over the 5 bucks I would shell out for a demo.

Can't win 'em all.

Poit 09-12-2014 09:46 PM

My thoughts from the demo so far:

The inability to select any options is very annoying. You can't do anything besides play 2-minute timed matches. I only ever play stock, so being limited to short, timed matches kinda sucks. I can't even go into training mode to learn how to use Mega Man and Villager.

But worst of all... L is the grab button. I'm used to using my right hand for grab and left hand for shield. Those being switched is completely throwing me off. And since you can't access any options in the demo, I can't change this. Ugh.

Poit 09-12-2014 09:49 PM

Oh, but overall it's fun.

FourFifty 09-13-2014 03:07 AM

http://kotaku.com/wow-people-are-act...emo-1634215477

After reading that, I kinda wanna cry. Would I pay 5-10 bucks for the demo right now? Yea, but no more than that. Would I pay for the demo on the 19th that you can only play 30 times? No, but I'll download it on my wife's 3ds also. But paying damn near retail for a demo is just fucking nuts.

Emperor Smeat 09-14-2014 12:16 AM

Wii U version rumored to be arriving on November 21st and the same day as Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire for the 3DS.

http://www.screwattack.com/news/rumo...pre-order-card

FourFifty 09-14-2014 03:31 PM

A friend just gave me a demo code. Life is good.

The Villager can be a BEAST! While his main moves are decent, putting stuff in his pockets can really turn the tide. It's half skill and half luck.

Dorkchop 09-15-2014 12:14 PM

I have two North American codes left. Send me a PM if you want one.

Savio 09-15-2014 05:35 PM

Minor spoiler
 
SPOILER: show
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JzzKdYSdQmA" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Final smashes looked nerfed (except for marth)

Emperor Smeat 09-15-2014 06:01 PM

Nintendo is already working on a fix but apparently playing as Peach online in the Final Destination only mode can lead to random bannings. Its due to a glitch reading her turnip move as being a "hacked" item.

Link and other fighters who have items as part of their moves are unaffected by the banning glitch.

http://www.destructoid.com/super-sma...h-281184.phtml

Emperor Smeat 09-16-2014 06:07 PM

Launch week sales in Japan for the 3DS version are currently at around 1 million copies sold.
http://www.destructoid.com/after-les...n-281225.phtml


Sakurai states the "Pic of the Day" hype feature will continue until the release of the Wii U version although from now on, nothing big or spoiler worthy will be revealed unlike during the lead up to the 3DS version. Similar to Brawl, the daily pic hype was never meant to last more than a few weeks but ended up lasting right until the game was released.
http://www.destructoid.com/sakurai-c...e-281227.phtml


Nintendo states the patch to fix the auto-banning Peach glitch should arrive by next week.
http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-...m-281231.phtml

FourFifty 09-17-2014 04:30 AM

It seems "Smash Potato" is a made up mini game in the game...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IjNO3WhrErM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

FourFifty 09-17-2014 04:32 AM

That NEEDS to be a drinking game.

road doggy dogg 09-17-2014 11:25 AM

http://www.eventbrite.ca/e/super-sma...345?aff=efbnen

may go to this

Emperor Smeat 09-25-2014 05:48 PM

For those interested, Nintendo is holding a nation-wide Smash Bros tournament on October 4th with 15 Gamestop locations and the Nintendo World Store as official locations.

Quote:

The initial rounds will be held at 15 GameStop locations around the United States and at the Nintendo World store in New York on October 4, one day after the title's release.

Each first round tournament will seat 64 entrants, and the winner of each will earn a trip to New York City for the final round on October 11. The final round will be broadcast on Nintendo's Twitch
http://www.destructoid.com/official-...4-281618.phtml

Emperor Smeat 09-26-2014 05:41 PM

Smash Bros Gamecube controller bundle was revealed to cost $99. Includes the game itself, a Smash Bros branded Gamecube controller, and a controller adapter for the Wii U.

http://cdn.destructoid.com//ul/281655-SS1.jpg
http://www.destructoid.com/super-sma...d-281655.phtml

road doggy dogg 09-30-2014 08:46 AM

3 more goddamn days until this is out on 3DS. fuck yes

Poit 09-30-2014 04:00 PM

Yeah, I'll probably be downloading it at midnight.

road doggy dogg 09-30-2014 04:05 PM

Is there any advantage/disadvantage to getting it from the eShop vs physical copy?

Kalyx triaD 09-30-2014 05:44 PM

You will never lose a digital cartridge.

Poit 09-30-2014 11:43 PM

I'm getting a digital copy because this is a game I'll probably always want to have with me.

road doggy dogg 10-01-2014 01:46 AM

Both great points

Just wasn't sure if there was any promotional crap etc


Regardless I'm fucking amped as shit for this

Emperor Smeat 10-01-2014 01:57 AM

Only promotion I'm aware of is if you buy both the 3DS and Wii U version, you can get the soundtrack set for free.

http://club2.nintendo.com/smash-promo/

road doggy dogg 10-01-2014 01:58 AM

Eh no big...

I still don't really know how 3ds friend codes etc work. I only really use street pass

Would be awesome to go to a con and duke it out with a ton of randoms

Kalyx triaD 10-01-2014 05:07 AM

Would you even need friend codes for ad-hoc play? I figure people in one area could just connect. It's basically a wireless LAN connection. Playing private games online would need friend codes.

road doggy dogg 10-01-2014 08:17 AM

Yeah, I meant to keep those two sentences as separate thoughts or w/e. Late night bad posting habits.

Poit 10-01-2014 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball (Post 4520713)
Only promotion I'm aware of is if you buy both the 3DS and Wii U version, you can get the soundtrack set for free.

http://club2.nintendo.com/smash-promo/

Does that require physical copies?

Emperor Smeat 10-01-2014 04:12 PM

If its like the recent Mario Kart 8 offer, it shouldn't matter if the game is digital or physical.

For the MK 8 offer, both types counted towards getting the free game gift.

Poit 10-01-2014 04:21 PM

Awesome, thanks. :y:

In that case, I'll be downloading this game at 9 pm tomorrow.

Emperor Smeat 10-01-2014 05:44 PM

Unlike past games, teams are no longer based on pre-set colors but now as an outline around the character that gets bolder the father the camera zooms away.

http://cdn.destructoid.com//ul/281959-Wu1.jpg
http://www.destructoid.com/here-s-ho...u-281959.phtml

Turns out the official reason why the 3DS version doesn't support the Circle Pad accessory but will support the 2nd stick for the NEW 3DS is due to CPU processing reasons.
Quote:

According to Sakurai, "Supporting the CCP requires the use of some of the CPU's processing load. From the information received during the development of Kid Icarus: Uprising, this is a quite large load at around 5%. Kid Icarus: Uprising and Smash both use the maximum capability of the device, so we had to abandon the idea of CCP support. With the New 3DS, we were able to support the C-Stick as the processing power is increased and it is not a peripheral device."
http://www.destructoid.com/super-sma...e-281956.phtml

Also Miiverse support for the 3DS version will only be available on the NEW 3DS due to similar reasons.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com...while-playing/

Big Vic 10-01-2014 06:13 PM

can barely see the lines in that picture

FourFifty 10-01-2014 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4520372)
Is there any advantage/disadvantage to getting it from the eShop vs physical copy?


Physical Pros
If you don't like the game, you can sell it at gamestop/to a friend/a homeless person/etc.
You can let your friend try the game out if you want to.
If you're a collector, it's yours.
You can help stimulate the local economy if you get it at a local game store, chain store, big box store. You can also use various amazon links to support various podcasts (TLP).

eShop Pros
No risk of losing the game.
Instant access for people who get it right at launch.
eShop purchases are not always taxed.


Just re-word a few things here and there for the cons. No point in typing this up again and say "Physical copies are normally taxed" or "eShop copies can't be sold even if the game is terrible albeit you were getting it from a franchise you grew up on and loved. *cough* Harvest Moon New Beginnings *cough*"

Poit 10-01-2014 10:17 PM

I liked Harvest Moon: A New Beginning. I just stopped playing once I realized that every romanceable female character in the game is boring, and my character was male.

FourFifty 10-01-2014 10:43 PM

I strongly preferred A Tale Of Two Towns over A New Beginning... Hell, Harvest Moon 64 was better.... For fucks sake, I had more fun with the first Harvest Moon than A New Beginning.

Kalyx triaD 10-02-2014 01:31 AM

You can still set teams to attire colors, which would be my preference. Things can get confusing 2v2 when all you got are outlines.


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