Congrats on the self loathing wrestling fan gimmick

No doubt it is a massive crowd pleaser, but if it was teased longer, the climax would have been so much the "bigger moment" and the crowd would have gone even more banana.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Not engaging any further because I like peace and harmony.

I've only read these last 3 posts so far and haven't watched Raw and I can already tell this thread is going to be hilarious to go through.

That second line is EXACTLY why I always said Santino should have won the world title from Daniel Bryan at Elimination Chamber in 2012!!! Because the live crowd that night were begging for it and would have gone apeshit if it happened! And that's all that matters!

Thank you for justifying that point, CyNick!!!

Why are they still taker and kane? Bray stole their powers.

Taker should have come out on a bike to Rollin' with Isaac Yankem riding on the back.

He's a liar.

There's no such thing as a soul

Bray is a bit more complex than just being a heel.

Wayne Rooney? The fuck?

Barrett having to sell the fuck out of that weak-ass slap. :(

Its okay context isn't important. Taker or Santino. Pretty much a coin flip, eh?

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Are you implying there is a context where making the live crowd go apeshit might not be as important as the big picture?

I'm saying a pop that a guy like Santino gets isn't the same as the pop a money player like Taker gets.

I don't think you understand the difference. At least not based on the fact that you compared the two in a previous response.

I don't think you're capable of answering a question. So I'll take that as a "Yes. Sometimes the pop of the live crowd isn't worth blowing things in the long run."

I don't care who the pieces in the specific comparison are. It's irrelevant. The pop Santino would have gotten that night would have been bigger than the pop Taker got last night. It would have been a much more memorable moment as well. I'm sorry you can only grasp "One guy big star! One guy not big star! Does not compare!"

But they didn't do it because a one night pop wasn't worth shitting on a story long-term.

Any live crowd is going to pop anytime the Undertaker shows up, doesn't mean its the right choice. I mean Bray Wyatt gets over on his promos alone and then with a video package unravel everything Bray has said since HITC. They should have kneeled at the feet of Wyatt and brought the apocalypse.

This is glorious. These two are a couple in real life, right?

Can imagine Ambrose just making this up as he goes along, has no idea what he's saying but just going with it.

What did they blow on Monday?

Should we expect to see a huge dip in network subs following Mondays show?

Nothing changed in the storyline based on what happened. Was always leading to a match with Taker and Kane at SurvSer. That's still the plan. Maybe you missed all the promos about 25yrs of Undertaker.

That would be an illogical angle for Taker but okay. Like I said above, it doesnt fit with the advertising they have been doing for weeks related to SurvSer and Taker. This thing was always going to lead to SurvSer. How do you advertise Taker on that show and have him do what? Hold Bray's lantern?

You still can't grasp that heels boast and lie, eh?

Santino should not have won the rumble nor should he have won the title at EC.

Stop that. You know Bray is not a regular heel. He has to be believable to get over, now he doesent eat souls and he's scared to death of Taker and Kane. They could have Wyatt being this all powerful heel and carrying on the supernatural gimmick instead they make him look weak. If Taker and Kane win at Survivor Series it will be a joke, and they might as well repackage Bray if they aren't going to take his character serious.

I don't think he's different than any other heel. He lies, cheats, and steals.

I didn't see Bray as being cowardly. He fought and got put down. Now he'll be back next week for the next round and spin some yarn about how he's in Taker and Kane's head. Maybe plays off the times Kane has turned on Taker. It's all part of the ebb and flow of an angle.

I would expect The Wyatts to lose at Survivor Series. It's more important right now for Taker to be strong, especially if he's working John at Mania. Maybe Bray escapes from being pinned and he has a one on one with Taker at TLC or Rumble.

I don't even know what you two are arguing about but I get the basic idea of the story line from reading these comments.

No one's saying that heels can't, don't or shouldn't boast and lie as you claim Bray has been doing, or be chickenshits, a la Seth's recent run.

That can't be all that the heels do though, otherwise every heel virtually seems the same, and there's no long term drama or consequences for the faces. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only way WWE can write a heel character these days. Either that or WWE's forgotten faces can appear vulnerable a lot of the times for storytelling purposes. Hell, maybe it's both.

You can have heels that do more than boast and lie or play the chickenshit character. It used to be commonplace actually.

From what I gather is going on now and where I remember Bray's character from when I've stopped watching, the problem is Bray's character has been doing the same thing for ages and hasn't addressed your theory of what's going on in storyline. So Bray and the storylines don't make any sense and always ends up going nowhere.

He doesn't steal, he almost stole some souls but WWE screwed that up. He was acting scared when Taker and Kane entered, were you not watching? Your probably right about Taker and Kane going over which is dumb and does nothing for Wyatt.

If Bray is dominant over top guys he will be turned babyface by the crowd. There was a time there where fans were doing sing along with him. That's not supposed to be the reaction a heel gets. It will be easy one day to turn him face, because a good portion of the crowd is into his gimmick.

When he does turn face them he can cut through the roster like a hot knife through butter. Until then he should be jumping guys when the numbers are in his favor, talk up how guys are in his spell and then get his cumuppance. Booking 101.

If over two years his big loses are to Cena, Reigns, and Taker, he's in a great spot. But people here like to exaggerate.

I don't think you watched. If he was scared, he would have powdered and let his henchmen take the beating while he watched. He tried to fight, he just got beat up because it was more of a fair fight. Classic heel stuff.

This program isn't about Bray though. This is what is difficult with you people. The program is about celebrating Taker's 25 years in the WWE. It's about selling Undertaker week on WWE Network, It's about Taker making a rare appearance at the event he debuted. It's about heating him back up for a high profile match against whoever it is in front of 100k people in his home state in what could be his last match. Bray can lose this program, go into something with a guy like Randy Orton and get his heat back. Or maybe he turns babyface soon. Lots of options. But he's not going to be a difference maker in the next 6 months. Taker will be.

Your funny, just because the dude wins he's a face? No if he beats the right people the fans still hate him. Brays good enough on the mic to draw heat from a crowd even if they sing along. He has them in the palm of his hand just like the rest of the Wyatt family. The character has a lot of potential as a heel but WWE doesn't want to pull the trigger. Also by having Taker and Kane under his command it draws heat because he is keeping them from the fans. That's the problem with WWE they go by the book and are afraid to step outside the box and produce.

Fair fight it was 4 on 2 and the 2 won. Made the 4 look real weak.

So you just want the Daniel Bryan angle again. Only this time is fo real!!!!

Awesome way to build up Undertaker week by making him look like a weak minded sheep. He's on par with Erik Rowan. Perfect!

Babyfaces overcome odds. Never seen that before.

I know when I watch Batman, if he cleans house on the villain and some henchmen I immediately tweet out #stoooooopid #batmansuckscantwaitforthesequel #pushthejoker #ihaventwatchedbatmansincekeaton

You amaze me. Never said anything about Taker being Rowan. He could have been used by Bray to wreak havoc on WWE. Taker could still play heel and have a "Undertaker week". If Roman Reigns can be a face and be booed, Undertaker can play heel and get cheered.

If Bray Wyatt was a Batman villian he would have taken Batmans soul and wrecked Gotham. Batman would have been looking for his soul found it and then kicked Brays ass.

WWE made Wyatt talk about being a soul keeper and even gave him powers and then the next scene Taker and Kane are magically back with no explanation or even hint that their souls were even gone to begin with.

I enjoyed RAW this week. Some head-scratching annoyances, but overall a better show than anything they have put on in months and months.

* The tournament brackets were what I expected. I know some are confused as to how some guys got in there, but a lot of people who wanted Finn Balor in the tournament are complaining that Tyler Breeze got in without ever having wrestled a RAW match. Um...

* The Triple H/Roman Reigns shit made sense. I'm thinking Reigns does turn heel. Lol at people booing Roman Reigns not turning heel. Hopefully Vince gets the message soon.

* I couldn't put myself through Show/Reigns. Not because it sucks, per se -- but I just value my time a little bit more than that. And that's coming from me. It made sense in terms of match choice and placement, but that's the sort of product the WWE delivers now -- they actually back themselves into a corner where they have to serve up shit that CyNick sheepishly defends.

* Kevin Owens came off as a star here. Titus O'Neil was trying really hard. Titus keeps his cool when a crowd doesn't care about him. Played to them well. Owens probably should have lost because he is the IC Champion, and you should always have your champion lose non-title matches, but I guess they wanted some shock factor on the show or something.

* Paige cut a pretty good backstage promo with some edge. Becky seemed more connected to the audience tonight. They had a good match. Becky winning makes sense, because you should always have your #1 Contender lose. Maybe they go with a Triple Threat at Survivor Series? If not, even better. Why put the top two women in a division against each other?

* The best thing about Natalya/Naomi was Nattie's attire. Didn't get much time and you can tell people don't really care about Naomi and Tamina. They do care about Sasha, but the whole "We want Sasha" thing is really weird. They should probably just have revealed that Banks was behind the attack and have Nattie go through Naomi and Tammy en route to a Survivor Series Kickoff Match with Banks.

* Ziggler and Miz actually had a good match, and Dolph is still selling the leg. It makes him look a bit weak though, because guys like Cena and Ryback don't have a hurt leg at the end of a match. The crowd pretty much died when Miz took control of the match. They liked Dolph, but like in Cesaro/Sheamus, the crowd wanted to see what they wanted to see. They weren't with the "story" the match was trying to tell of a back-and-forth rivalry.

* Cesaro and Sheamus tore it up, but it's obvious that Cesaro is far more boring than Sheamus, so he probably should have won if Sheamus weren't Money in the Bank winner. You should never put your MITB winner over. Why build a guy with a magic bullet?

* I like the idea of Reigns vs. Cesaro. Because Cesaro is so boring, I fully expect Reigns to get cheers for being the lightning rod of charisma that he is.

* The New Day were pretty entertaining. I didn't like that they won, because they are the champions. But I guess Neville is actually in the tournament on SmackDown, so you can't have him win either. Tough situation. Good booking idea though.

* Alberto Del Rio and Zeb Colter continue to play off each other well and deliver poignant and deep interviews.

* Dean Ambrose and Tyler Breeze had a good match. Breeze looked like he could hang, and Ambrose look lucky after he hurt himself. One could make a joke about Breeze not only not being able to create an injury in his opponenet on his own, but also not being able to exploit it, but that would be mean. Since this was his first time out the gate, we've probably just seen Tyler Breeze booked in the best way he ever will be.

* After seeing The Undertaker and Kane totally destroy The Wyatt Family, I am DEFINITELY ready to pay money to see them do it again at Survivor Series. Remember when Mike Tyson knocked out the World Heavyweight Champion the week before he actually became the World Heavyweight Champion? Great PPV strategy.

* Honestly, I understood why they didn it. They wanted the Taker pop and for him to actually do something in England. Cool. The Family can claim surprise. I mean, they were all ready for them, but surprise and all.

Jeeeeeesus

cornetteface.jpg

Getting flashbacks of that story about Vince Russo wanting Taker to chokeslam Kane through the announce table the week after Kane debuted. Blowing through the heel getting heat and the payoff of the face getting revenge as quick as possible is always a great way to build up to a PPV match.

Yeah, should have just had Taker/Kane reappear and say that they wanted their souls back....

Then at the PPV they could have had a Soul on a Pole match....

They could have just had Luke Harper be the guy who gets laid out by Taker/Kane. Harper is good enough to make it look great and sell it like a minor set-back.

CyNick doesn't understand, #fan. What successful wrestling territory has wrestling ever run?

lol. To be honest, I'm only into the discussion of the storyline half-heartedly because I don't have hope in WWE's a remotely intriguing storyline with a hot climax to begin with. And I don't think Taker and Kane "wanting their souls back" was necessarily the way to go either. But the idea that the live crowd popped so having them get their revenge weeks before the PPV match you're trying to build to was worth it is just SO lolWWE.

It's all about making people pay for what they see for free on TV. It worked for Eric Bischoff long-term in WCW, and it'll work for Vince in WWE now.

Wish they'd have waited on Taker. Can you imagine Bray running through everybody in the tournament, virtually unstoppable, and going on to face Reigns in the semis? He takes the spear, kicks out at 2, and sits the fuck up ala Taker? And right when he's about to put Reigns away, the lights go out, and Taker appears for the first time in a month, attacks Bray, and they both brawluntil something supernatural happens, leaving Reigns in the ring, alone, declared the winner by default.

Reigns gets to go on to the final, Bray has been established as an Undertaker like phenom of his own, with seemingly superhuman abilities, going into the end of the year building towards a clash with Taker.

Reigns can do the much needed heel turn in the finals against Ambrose and build that program.

Nah, just let Bray look like a fool that likes to carry people to the back, loose them then cliam he has their soul.

They can still recover from this and build towards the Soul on a Pole match...

If this ends in Wyatt retiring Undertaker at Mania, officially claiming his mantle, then fucking great. However, feel like this just a segue into whatever they have planned for Taker at Mania and Bray is simply there as cannon fodder.

Is your claim that in the heyday of WWE a babyface never got over physically on a heel 2 weeks before the PPV? Usually the standard MO is to have the heels go over the final TV before the PPV. Two weeks out is a long time.

This is like saying Wrestlemania 15 was ruined when Austin did the beer truck gimmick on Rock and the McMahons. But that was The Attitude Era, so I guess somehow it was good then.

The Rock was over, you dumb fuck. Bray Wyatt has lost to everyone and anyone he's faced INCLUDING THE FUCKING UNDERTAKER NOT EVEN A YEAR AGO and they spent all of 1 week actually trying to make it look like he was a threat before this EPIC SHOWDOWN PLZ BE INTERESTED PLZ!

Just have Wyatt do the Taker sit up in the match at SS and start laughing like he had their powers all along and was just making them think he was weak to make them vulnerable.

Lol way to change the point.

Smart move when you have no argument.

Don't know how he changed the point but its funny you think getting a beer bath and taking a stunner is the same as 2 old guys beating up 4 Wyatt's.

It's one of CyNick's tactics when he can't think of a way out of a silly argument he tried to make. Say something like "lol You changed the point" even though it makes no sense whatsoever and then sit back and feel like he actually got one up or something. lol The guy's resorted to reaching with "faith in McMahon" and conspiracy theories in other threads when he's run out of ways to defend things. This is kinda par for the course at this point.

The guy said lolWWE because they had the faces lay out the heels two weeks prior to the PPV. My point is that happens ALL THE TIME. And it's even happened ONE WEEK before a fairly major PPV. So nothing is lost by that booking decision as prior history has shown.

The guy reads that and pivots off the topic about faces laying out heels before a PPV and then just starts swearing because he's been gotten to and has no coherent response.

Now you talk about how the program itself is stupid because Taker and Kane are old guys. Well tough to argue that point. They are in fact older guys. The old guys managed to get the biggest pop of the night, but who cares, right?

That's literally what you did. Keep swinging though. You'll hit one eventually

Even if they were young it'd still be dumb. I mean at Survivor Series they onky face 2 Wyatts. But they beat the 4 of them easy on Raw.

Actually, I said it was dumb in this situation. I literally reference that exact situation and not the vague "So heels shouldn't get one up on faces before a big match?" strawman (You like making me use that word, don't you?) you tried afterward. (That post is right there on the top of the page. For the literate to read.)

You responded by comparing it to Rock-Austin 2 weeks before WrestleMania. (Right there. To read. On this page.)

Then I said no. It's not comparable because in one situation you had to over guys going back and forth and in another you're trying to build up a glorified jobber as competition to a legend and spent all of 1 week making it look like the glorified jobber actually had a chance. (Look up. Right there.)

Then you accused me of changing the subject, presumably because you have the mental capacity of WWE's target audience. Which explains a lot.

Just because you like to randomly assert "you're changing the subject" to avoid having to come up with a new excuse for WWE's retarded writing doesn't make the actual posts that are right there on the page for everyone to see go away. You're better off just shutting up, backing out of the topic and hoping it gets buried on the 2nd page so you don't have to worry about trying to pull an explanation out of your ass like you usually do when you're backed into a corner.

Don't change the chan.....point

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Why do you guys bother with CyNick anymore? It is like talking to Kane Knight.

Did they have a match?

This glorified jobber has lost to Cena, Taker, and Reigns.

Don't worry I won't point out how rediculous it is to call that guy a glorified jobber.

You really make me laugh. I swear when I read these types of posts its like watching a kid ride a bike without training wheels for the first time. You can see he sorta knows what to do, but he's still out of his league.

Jobber: jobs to Ziggler, Barrett, Sheamus.

Glorified jobber: jobs to Cena, Reigns, Taker.

I liked arguing with Kane Knight. It was like training for real discussions with actual people.

... You... YOU JUST LISTED A BUNCH OF GUYS HE JOBBED TO TO EXPLAIN WHY HE'S NOT A GLORIFIED JOBBER!

You also conveniently ignored how insanely retarded "he changed the subject" was.

How do you even try to claim to be a real person anymore!?!?!

Can't even find a Cornette face to express how "derp" this guy has gotten. Someone help me out, please.

Just give him the Axe
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I concur. CyNick is only worthy of Curtis Axel faces from here on out. That's how low the bar is now.

He's got an opinion, I got an opinion. I get a laugh out his, he gets a laugh out of mine. win win. Wasn't around for this Kane Knight so I wouldn't know.

If you think he's a jobber you don't understand how to use the term. Your whole premise now appears to be that Bray is fragile and needs to look strong. But you clearly don't know the history of the character and how much he's been protected since he debuted.

But keep ignoring the reality. Maybe you can post the Cornette face you use to jack off on.

Yeah. Cornette is too good for you. You've been downgraded to Axel faces. When you become known for strawmen, blatantly avoiding things like the plague and out and out bullshit like "But Bray's been protected so much!" I think Axel faces might even be too good.

I don't know who that is but it works.

ZZ from Tough Enouh

Also find it funny the CyNick mentioned the crowd pop at Raw on a taped show that had cheers dubbed in.

Live reports said the crowd was going crazy for the Taker-Kane segment. Actually it was form the UK, so I believe the word used was "mental"

You live report sheep.

It is not a huge stretch of belief to think that Taker/Kane would get a huge pop. Probably did not need editing at all.

The crowd were legitimately hot for Taker and Kane, you could tell. Doesn't mean they needed to do it that way.

I try not to use someone's spelling or grammar as a point in an argument, but anyone who uses "rediculous" immediately pisses on their own foot and betrays their lack of intelligence.

It might have been more beneficial to have one of the Wyatt Family members turn face on RAW -- giving Wyatt a reason to be caught off-guard -- and build to a 3 vs. 3 match at Survivor Series. Just spit-balling here.

Luke Harper would have been my pick. He's got the most ring skill and star potential on his own. Rowan and Strowman need the Family at this point.

You need to learn the difference between building heat and blowing it off.

I guess the thinking behind what they did on RAW is this:

* The Undertaker is in England, the crowd will go bonkers.

* Taker will sell Survivor Series on his own.

* The Wyatt Family can say they were surprised and people will buy it.

* It's Taker, guys.

I don't think what they did is going to kill the program dead. I mean, the stuff with the soul-absorbing was hard to come back from in a few weeks anyway. But at a time where the WWE is hurting for stars, blowing the heat off here when it could have been coupled with the tournament finals as a major selling point to Survivor Series has left everything feel sterile.

I guess this is the Network era though, and the WWE don't really need to sell PPVs like they used to.

That would have been great. Would have explained how Taker and Kane got away and evened up the odds for a match at Survivor Series. Could still happen when Bray announces who will face Taker and Kane though.

Actually, even a sheep would be a better poster than CyNick.

Urban dictionary for Cynick, sounds like something from a Curtis post

I'm now actually thinking that it might be an interesting move to turn Braun Strowman face. I'm not sold on the guy, and I'm not sure just how great his chops are, but there's still something "off" about his presence within The Wyatt Family. Erick Rowan turning face was done and didn't really garner any momentum, and Luke Harper is such an integral part of the ring work for the group. Strowman, on the other hand, seems to jar up their dynamic with the constant soft-footing around him.

At Survivor Series, have the team be Strowman & Harper against The Undertaker & Kane. Taker wins the match with a Tombstone on Harper and on RAW, Bray Wyatt is disappointed with his family. They point the finger at Strowman, with it being stated that there's a reason he's "The Black Sheep." They beat him down, with Strowman showing some fire back, but he eventually gets stopped and hit with Sister Abigail.

The next week, Strowman vows revenge against Bray Wyatt, with the one thing he learnt from The Family being his true potential as a monster. He wants to pledge his allegiance to The Brothers of Destruction, so that they can go against The Wyatt Family at TLC. Strowman, Taker & Kane go over there, and Wyatt sets his sights on the Royal Rumble and his "absolution." Braun doesn't get into the Rumble Match, instead fighting Harper in some sort of brawl earlier in the show. Strowman wins that match (with Harper leading him through it), and Wyatt and Rowan work the Rumble and have a good time tossing out mid-carders. Cue Strowman coming out, fighting Rowan and Wyatt, tossing both over even though he's not in the Rumble Match.

It might suck, but it might also entertain the kiddies who start seeing Strowman as the monster they can cheer. Slightly tweak his look and give him cool music. You're not looking to put the title on him anytime soon or anything, but Wyatt, Harper & Rowan vs. Strowman & Kane, or something, could be an undercard match at WrestleMania, if you've got Undertaker and Cena fighting higher up.

Noid, I'm nearly always on board with you. But not this time.

Strowman is not established or interesting enough right now. He's also very, very green. And a face turn only weeks after his debut will set him on the path to the Big Show/Kane/Henry style constant rotating turns.

That's fair enough. I think as a face it will make what he does a little more interesting than it currently is, and it will allow heels to lead him through the matches.

I love you Noid but no. The Family get buried enough. You might as well as disband The Family at that point.