I only do it for things I find particularly distasteful. Not just incorrect things, things I don't like, or things I disagree with. I'm glad Savio cared enough to share.

I bet if some dude accused Alexa Bliss of raping them Noid would consider her guilty despite the low stats.

My crazy, homeless lady down the street analogy still applies here. We can take out the ghosts. If she runs up and down the block saying she was raped by John Cena, I think it's fair to be more skeptical than you would if a more level-headed, trustworthy human being said the same. And that's the same with literally any crime.

And at no point should "Statistically, in other cases, the guy is usually guilty" come in to play. And without a doubt, going out of your way to make it clear that John Cena could definitely have raped that crazy homeless lady because "statistically" the accused is usually guilty is really fucked. Without calling him guilty, you're absolutely tying a stigma of guilt to him based on nothing but an accusation that can be made by anyone at any time.

I feel the need to clarify this:

* My legal opinion is that Enzo is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think I disagree with anyone here.

* My intuition tells me that this is a fucking mess, it's not all on the level, and Enzo is, to some degree, likely a piece of shit. I agree with Dale on this being a mess, but I think we disagree on our opinion of Enzo's reputation, because our intuitions tell us different things about this situation.

* Statistics are not evidence, but they do reflect an observable world and do imply that when a woman makes an allegation, you take it seriously and then cycle back to the legal position on whether or not there is enough evidence for it. This is where I disagree with #fan, because he seems to think that you do not take an accuser seriously if they have a history of lying or substance abuse. I don't think that's fair process.

The statistic that most accusations are not baseless is not evidence itself and does not mean you forego due process. You can investigate as if someone is telling the truth without judging the accused as if they were.

I don't take an accuser seriously when she has lied about rape in the past, bragged to her friends about sleeping with Enzo, "Faked a pregnancy" when someone broke up with her, and has insufficient evidence of rape.

I think a healthy amount of skepticism with both can be applied. More or less are trivial in that situation. If it came down to the word of a reasonable and sane person against and unreasonable and insane one, of course you'd probably start with the reasonable person's. I don't see it as relevant to this case. If a choir girl said that Enzo raped her, would your stance really change? Should it change? I think we disagree here, because I think both should be taken seriously and don't see them on a versus screen. And if they both accused Enzo, then I think that looks worse for Enzo.

And why don't more crazies accuse John Cena of rape? Or Randy Orton? Or Shawn Michaels? Or Shane McMahon? I'm not saying if they did it would be true, but why doesn't that happen? Probably largely because it doesn't actually happen often at all, is disadvantageous to the party making the false claim (and a crime), and it's actually really hard to accuse someone of something if they don't have the means and opportunity, have an alibi, there are other witnesses, etc. I'm not making that as a legal argument -- of course the onus is not on the accused -- but just as a common sense one.
"John Cena raped me."
"When and where?"
"Um, Saturday at 9pm."
"He was on the other side of the world then." Easily ruled out.

When you say that quote shouldn't come into play, in what context are you referring? Because I think it is absolutely relevant when discussing it with people who claim "Pfft, she's lying. Enzo is a Superstar he can fuck anyone he wants," or when people claim that false allegations are rampant. Or when they claim it actually gives a woman power.

If John Cena was with the homeless lady, had sex with the homeless lady, did drugs with the homeless lady, the lady was admitted to the hospital with head injuries, etc., then yeah, I'd say the same thing in a conversation about it if people were like "Nah, impossible." I wouldn't go emailing strangers about it or drag it into every conversation. And given the woman's status and possible mental health, having "consensual sex" with a woman in that state could be questionable too. It's not as clean an analogy as you are making it out to be.

The thing is #fan those accusations aren't made by anyone at anytime. That's the whole point of pointing out that these things usually have something to them, dude. They're usually very serious things because people drag their names through the mud because "Look, this part here doesn't look true." We're going in circles now.

You're tying a stigma to her because of her mental health or whatever. I'm tying a stigma to Enzo because it's possible he raped a girl. We've both "I'm not saying she's definitely lying" or "I'm not saying he definitely did it." Let's just agree we're both assholes without the full knowledge of what happened and are projecting our own biases onto a situation that is dark and messy with no winner, whichever way you slice it.

There's a huge, enormous, universe-sized difference between "tying a stigma" to someone based on their own history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health and tying a stigma to someone because they were simply accused of something. I think that idea that there's no difference is where the problem with this whole conversation lies.

And in this is a problem:

* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now. That's not something you can say with 100% certainty, just as people here are so evangelical about defending Enzo because it's not 100% certain he did it. The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior, yes, but as Dale and I mentioned earlier, people with messed up pasts are often more at risk; not less. It has nothing to do with the factual nature of what happened.

* Bragging about someone haven't sex with you, again, does not necessarily mean it was consensual. I wish I knew the name for it, but especially in young people, you see victims glamorize their abuse. It's "no biggie; happens all the time." "He's famous, it's cool." "I didn't say yes, but I didn't say no." "Yeah, it was fun, ha-ha-ha-ha, how cool that I got to do that thing, huh, huh?" It can take a while for the processing to occur. I AM NOT SAYING THIS DEFINITELY HAPPENED, IT WOULD JUST NOT BE UNUSUAL.

* Faking a pregnancy is irrelevant.

* Not all rape victims provide photographic and indisputable evidence of their assault to police for the convenience of an eventual trial, unfortunately.

But you go with what brought you to the dance.

Accused of something that people don't normally accuse people of because then their history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health are dragged through the mud. I think the oversimplification is disingenuous and you were premature to take aim at her.

Wait. So "Women tend not lie about rape" can be thrown around as meaningful in this conversation but "This woman definitely lies about rape" can't?

Just because people don't normally do it doesn't mean they didn't lie about it here.

See what I did there.

If I can get one thing clear to anyone objective reading this, it's that it's not fun accusing someone of rape. It's not something easy or rewarding to do, and it doesn't come with a whole lot of benefits. So when someone tries to slip past the insinuation that "anyone can accuse anyone at anytime," do think about it for a second and think "but would they?"

Maybe they would? Maybe there's nothing to it? Okay. That person probably needs help more than they need ridicule though. But don't fall for that reduction of it to being a few words someone can shoot out without consequence.

"This woman has definitely lied about rape" is not the same as "this woman is lying about rape." You know this, #fan. Come on. And if you're saying it, I guess it must be okay to say? I don't think think it's valid or on-point, but okay.

But when they have lied in the past and have no evidence now I would not believe them.

How are you not seeing the contradiction in using "Women tend to not lie about rape" as a meaningful point while also dismissing "This woman definitely lies about rape" as insignificant?

If the first is significant, then you'd have to do some crazy rationalization to claim the latter isn't. It's either that or neither is significant.

Cool. :) :y:

Lies and lied are two different tenses. If you're suggesting that because she lied about it once she must be again, that's false. If you're suggesting she lied about it once, therefore she has no moral qualms doing it, then it's a stronger point and problematic, but it doesn't do anything to dismiss the severity of a separate incident.

You all took The Boy Who Cried Wolf way too seriously. You do remember there was an actual wolf at the end, right? The moral is to not tell lies so people believe you, but it's also there to give us the wider perspective too, in that there might actually be a wolf.

Jesus. Noid. Listen.

I'm not claiming she lied once therefore she must always be lying/is definitely lying. Stop and read what I'm saying.

You think "Women tend to not lie about rape" is a meaningful point. Because she's a woman making a rape accusation therefore you're comparing the likelihood of her lying to what typically ends up being the case when a woman makes a rape accusation.

Yet you're dismissing "She DOES lie about rape" (Not that she 100% must always be lying. That she indeed has been known to lie about rape.) as meaningless. That's a glaring contradiction. You want to give her the benefit of all other women who don't lie about rape but ignore the DIRECT example of HER... THE ONE WOMAN WHO IS ACTUALLY BEING DISCUSSED... lying about rape.

It's a contradiction. How is it not?

If the fact that they are two different tenses has some kind of meaning, then your statistical analysis rhetoric is completely useless. Seeing as statistics are based off of prior incidents and this is a present incident...well that's 2 different tenses now isn't it?

Because people change, dude. You can't divide people into binary categories like "liars" and "truthtellers." It's a contradiction only if you're looking at her personality like a logic puzzle, which it is clearly not.

I agree that it makes it problematic, and that skepticism should be taken with this case (as has been done legally), but that doesn't mean you dismiss her outright.

To steer it back to what was originally being discussed: Dale is worried about Enzo's reputation. I am not, because I'm still suss on the whole thing. And I think that's why you won't find that the WWE won't welcome him back and you won't see any WWE contracted personnel publicly congratulating Enzo. I don't mean to appeal to authority, but I think that is really common sense in a situation like this. Enzo's rep is one of the lowest priorities in this for me.

That's all. :)

Absolutely nothing about this woman could change, and if they turned up more evidence and she would be just as valid a victim as anyone else. That's what's grossing me out about this. That they didn't turn up enough evidence is very good for a presumably innocent Enzo -- good for him -- but these comments about her character have nothing to do with the factual nature of the case. If something awful happened and there was evidence, she could remain exactly the same and it wouldn't make a difference. So why are we even discussing it?

Noid is the man who would fight for your honor,
Noid will be the hero you're dreaming of.
You'll live forever, knowing together
that you did it all for the glory of love.

Just like a Noid in shining armor,
from a long time ago.
Just in time Noid will save the day,
take you to his castle far away.

My lord. Can someone summarize the last 3 pages for me? So much to read.

Feels odd to see Meatballs debating anything too.

It's a 3page arguement over the sematics of the tense used in "has lied about rape" vs "does lie about rape", because Noid doesn't like Enzo Amore as a person / wrestler.

No headway's been made from either side so far.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nXlOWjobOZU" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I hate Enzo and I'm glad he's gone the end

I have a feeling Noid has lied about being raped a few times for attention

What are you doing when you say "women tend not to lie about being raped"? You're assigning odds based on the history of accusers. Vic is assigning odds based on the history of her as an accuser. You're doing the same... exact... thing. Except Vic's example is actually much more pertinent to the case because it takes into account the exact woman we're talking about and not just women in general. You're rationalizing to keep believing what you're dead set on believing. The contradiction is clear as day though. Any argument you have to tear down Vic's quote can be used to tear down yours.

Stepping back from this a little bit, I do understand the position those other guys have. You can look at her past behavior and decide she is unsavory. I don’t agree with this. Inherent in the argument is the reality that either someone was raped or someone is lying about being raped. I don’t feel comfortable calling someone a liar about that just because there isn’t enough evidence to put the other party away. It’s absolutely fucked, as Dale said a while back.

Smeat had the sense to stop banging his head against the wall a while ago, haha.

Police released their reasons why the case was dismissed via a recent statement from Enzo's accuser. Pretty much was a "he says, she says" type situation made worse because it became public.

Only hard evidence police had was both being in the same room during the timeline and sex occurring. They couldn't get enough details or evidence afterwards nor from others possibly involved that night.

<blockquote class="instagram-media" data-instgrm-captioned data-instgrm-permalink="https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi36Muujk9u/" data-instgrm-version="8" style=" background:#FFF; border:0; border-radius:3px; box-shadow:0 0 1px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.5),0 1px 10px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.15); margin: 1px; max-width:658px; padding:0; width:99.375%; width:-webkit-calc(100% - 2px); width:calc(100% - 2px);"><div style="padding:8px;"> <div style=" background:#F8F8F8; line-height:0; margin-top:40px; padding:50% 0; text-align:center; width:100%;"> <div style=" background:url(data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACwAAAAsCAMAAAApWqozAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAFzUkdCAK7OHOkAAAAMUExURczMzPf399fX1+bm5mzY9AMAAADiSURBVDjLvZXbEsMgCES5/P8/t9FuRVCRmU73JWlzosgSIIZURCjo/ad+EQJJB4Hv8BFt+IDpQoCx1wjOSBFhh2XssxEIYn3ulI/6MNReE07UIWJEv8UEOWDS88LY97kqyTliJKKtuYBbruAyVh5wOHiXmpi5we58Ek028czwyuQdLKPG1Bkb4NnM+VeAnfHqn1k4+GP T6uGQcvu2h2OVuIf/gWUFyy8OWEpdyZSa3aVCqpVoVvzZZ2VTnn2wU8qzVjDDetO90GSy9mVLqtgYSy231MxrY6I2gGqjrTY0L8fxCxfCBbhWrsYYAAAA AElFTkSuQmCC); display:block; height:44px; margin:0 auto -44px; ██████████relative; top:-22px; width:44px;"></div></div> <p style=" margin:8px 0 0 0; padding:0 4px;"> <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi36Muujk9u/" style=" color:#000; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; line-height:17px; text-decoration:none; word-wrap:break-word;" target="_blank">There are no words to describe what this feels like... To know that my rapist is walking away from this, free of charges, and will continue to be a part of society today. I have said this many times, and I will say it again: I did this for sexual assault survivors/victims who did not/do not have the courage to speak up about their stories. For those who feared for their lives &amp; knew that if they spoke up, they would be killed. For those who’s assailant was a family member. For those who were set up to be assaulted. No matter the differences in our stories, we are one in the same. I did this in hopes that by coming out about what happened to me on October 19, 2017 &amp; the correct legal measures taken, that my story may end in a little bit of hope with my assailant being prosecuted. To my disbelief &amp; complete misfortune, this did not happen. I was so mentally shaken up in every way possible after the night that it happened that i waited 4 days to report it to the police. Hence the DNA samples taken were 4 days old &amp; would have had to survive a shower &amp; regular visits to the bathroom. That is where I messed up in this process, but I don’t blame myself. I have been told that I did this for money, fame, out of spite, and to those that believe these things, all I can say is you are very wrong. I am a different person today. I used to have anxiety, but since the incident it has escalated to a much higher level. I have frequent panic attacks. I rarely can handle any interaction with men. I wake up most nights in a complete panic &amp; have to use coping mechanisms to relieve the emotions. I have PTSD &amp; it shows itself in a variation of ways. I’m married to a woman named Depression &amp; she is my lover. People get jealous &amp; frustrated because she gets all of me. Most days we just lay in bed &amp; refuse to get up. She takes from the quality of my life &amp; tonight she was begging me to self harm. I have been hiding from my phone all day, dodging the hate. But when I came home, it was overwhelming. I wanted nothing more than that release. My favorite coping mechanism is writing, so I decided to share an up-to-date side of my story. Eric Ardnt is not innocent, &amp; I AM A SURVIVOR.</a></p> <p style=" color:#c9c8cd; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px; margin-bottom:0; margin-top:8px; overflow:hidden; padding:8px 0 7px; text-align:center; text-overflow:ellipsis; white-space:nowrap;">A post shared by <a href="https://www.instagram.com/missgucciking/" style=" color:#c9c8cd; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; line-height:17px;" target="_blank"> �� �������������� ��</a> (@missgucciking) on <time style=" font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px;" datetime="2018-05-17T09:30:25+00:00">May 17, 2018 at 2:30am PDT</time></p></div></blockquote>
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I will continue to ask this question. Why is she releasing statements and not a lawyer. At no point has a lawyer released a statement on her behalf, and that is truely befuddling. If she is serious, why has she not had a lawyer represent her? I would love to know this answer. I want to know the name of the lawyer who is representing her. If there is no lawyer, than this is all bullshit.

There is not one lawyer that would be letting her release her own statements right now. Not one. My guess... Lawyers took a look at this case ( bloodsuckers they are. ) and determined there was no case and they could not extract money out of Enzo. And yes. There is money to be extracted out of Enzo. Current money and future earnings can be extracted.

The fact that she's releasing her own statements are so damning in this entire thing.

I'll go further on this.

I think Enzo is going to get hired back into the WWE. Not because they have to in any way. But because this whole thing is sounding like a joke. Did they have issues with Enzo before hand, sure. But this entire rape case seems like a sham. Does this woman even have a lawyer? It all makes zero sense. He looks completely innocent and he's done everything he should have which is keep his fucking mouth shut and let his lawyer do his job.

Case closed.

Unless its a very high profile case or incident (ex. Trump, Cosby, etc), i'd assume getting a lawyer at that stage isn't a common thing to do. It does make it a lot easier to attack the accuser's credibility and her actions didn't help at least in the public sphere.

Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.

This is a high profile case based on his earnings and potential earnings. Lawyers have been retained for much less.

Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.

You're wrong. There are no shortage of lawyers willing to prosecute a rape case against anyone that even sniffs fame.

Lawyers are considered bloodsuckers for a reason. They are like sharks in the water. If they smell blood, they swarm at it. This is a case that a lawyer should be swarming to take. Which leaves me with my original question. Who is her lawyer?

If she dont have a lawyer, something is seriously wrong here. If she does and that lawyer is letting her release her own statements, which appears to be the case, that lawyer is the worst lawyer of all time.

There should be lawyers coming out of the fucking woodworks to take this case if they think it's legit.


I dont think they thought it was legit.

Given that it is a he said/she said scenario, I don’t think many would think it winnable right now.

You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.

Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?

Woman makes false rape/sexual assault accusations against 15 people

Statistically it's unlikely she is lying.

The stats don't lie, Savio.

And they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice

And I do agree, of course statistically woman would not lie about rape. Why? Because lying about rape is fucking insane.

But statistically, Philomena HAS lied about rape and being pregnant, so statistically she herself is more likely to lie about rape.

Mind you, like Fan even pointed it out it certainly doesn't 100% mean she is lying. But compound it with a lack of evidence and a bunch of other funky shit that went down (ie. her former friend being like 'you did not get raped') the whole thing was fishy to begin with. She is obviously dealing with some kind of mental illness so hopefully she gets the help she needs.

I feel like if someone has something to gain on lying about it they might do so.

Do I believe Bill Cosby raped 60 women? No. Do I believe he raped 59? Yes.

I'd say Cosby has probably raped well over 100 women tbh

He's been a sexual predator pretty much his entire adult life by the sounds of it. fkn grawss.

Fuck Bill Cosby

hopefully he dies in prison. Preferably via shanking

Shanked by a penis, maybe.

too old an wrinkly.

Yes i do. If you're not going for the money, you're dumb.

I think it's possible Bill Cosby made certain there was a single droplet of his cum in every Jello Pudding cup ever made.

We have all been raped by William Cosby.

She's most likely not be represented because as far as I can see, no charges have been filed. But even is she was, what competent DA in this country would allow her to release her own statements?

None.

1. District and state attorneys don't represent criminal victims personally (they represent all the citizens of the state or district) and so cannot give legal advice to individuals, let alone control their conduct, regardless if they're criminal victims.

2. No attorney, whether they're representing a client personally in a civil or criminal matter, can control the conduct of their clients. Under the rules of professional conduct an attorney can only inform clients as to the likely consequences of certain conduct and advise for or against the client choosing to take certain actions or engage in certain conduct.

In this case, if she had one, the only thing this woman's attorney could do is inform her of the likely consequences of her releasing any statements, offer to write (or at least assist in writing, and releasing) a statement on her behalf, advise her as to whether or not she should release a statement, inform her that if she chose to ignore said advice, the attorney may choose to terminate the attorney-client relationship, and finally, if she did ignore the advice, the attorney could then actually take action to terminate the attorney-client relationship.

Never know if RP is being silly or just never received an education outside of a public school in Indy.

If lawyers are bloodsuckers, then why would they care if it were bullshit or not?

Completely ruined Fat Albert for me.

You're right, but why is it insane? It's not only a mental thing to lie about rape, or a moral thing, but a pragmatic thing. Look how quick people were to jump on anything that made her story appear to be shaky from a cohesive narrative perspective (which real life doesn't behave as anyway).

Argh, I know what you are saying in your second statement, but I just disagree. Not on the whole point. Has she lied? Sure. Is that awful? Sure. That's not the same as saying she is more likely to lie. It says something about her character as an even younger teenager, sure, but I don't know if it qualifies as a pattern of behavior or as something that discredits a claim. As I said to #1-wwf-fan earlier: If it were a choice between her and a unscrupulous individual and their stories were in complete contradiction to each other, I might be inclined to predict the honest person telling the truth whilst still doing an investigation. But, as cunty Savio seems to be relishing in doing, there are exceptions to everything. I know that when I was younger, my honesty paid off and got someone into trouble because they had a reputation of telling fibs. I'm ashamed of that to this day, but the amount of women who have lied about being raped and then get raped is probably significant enough within that marginal statistic to warrant not coloring all women who lie about rape once as women who lie about rape 100 times.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying she isn't lying because of stats. Please don't run us down that path again, because I am likely to get distracted by it, haha. My sole disagreement here is almost semantic (well, not really -- I can't think of the term I want though -- just woke up) on how we interpret statistics in this case. I think the position you're taking in this one, while I said I can understand it earlier (and I can), is way too absolute. And I think this is really our only point of contention, to be honest:

* Do you take a complaint from someone with a troublesome past with a "grain of salt" as #1-wwf-fan said, or do you take it seriously and let the falsehoods in it fall out on their own?

Personally, I go with the latter option, because I believe that false accusations are extremely hard to maintain, and that frankly the paranoia of men who worry about this does stem from misogyny in society and culture. As I said earlier, all you need is an alibi, another witness or some contradictory evidence (not as an onus, but as something that completely eliminates the accusation from the realm of possibility) and you've completely exposed someone as a felon. And that's a huge part of what makes lying about rape insane. Not impossible; just insane.

The problem with the grain of salt approach is that too many people fall through the cracks. People with rough pasts, substance abuse issues or that are simply coming up against a man that "couldn't/wouldn't do that." We know enough now that lots of the "couldn't/wouldn't" is bullshit, unfortunately. You don't need to change "innocent until proven guilty" in a legal sense, or shift the burden of proof. You don't need to throw everyone accused in jail on the assumption that the accuser is telling the truth because of stats (what a weapon that would be). It's just simply an attitude towards an accusation from the get-go. And to be perfectly honest, I think it's common sense: We'll treat it seriously.

I guess we depart further on where that serious line is. Some would have you believe that if you can prove she's lied about it in the past, then that's it. I don't agree with that for a second. Crying wolf and all that. And to be honest, and you used this word earlier, I think it's an intuition thing. What bothers me is a lot of people took the "what a liar" position as soon as this story came out (even before evidence of lying), which is gross to me. From what I've gathered about this case, in particular, Enzo had sex with a teenage girl that was drugged up, possibly because he was drugged up, and she went to the hospital and claimed later it was non-consensual after texting her friends about it. It's a fucking mess, but it's not not serious (what a serious sentence). Even without the claims of rape, it's still messy. I can completely understand why WWE has distanced themselves from this guy, and I'll take whatever shots at the company I can, but I think they are completely in the right on this.

To your original point: Will people always think of Enzo as a rapist? I can't speak for anyone else. The original surge here was counter to that and seemed extra focused on protesting Enzo's innocence because it was he said/she said. I think we're both talking about larger communities. Some might, I guess. But my feelings with this are dark because we just don't know. It's a situation we're agnostic on, and I think it's irresponsible for anyone to take any certain stance on it re: guilt versus she's lying. And I don't think proving her a liar proves she's lying about this. It proves that she is capable of lying, and that she has lied -- but that's like throwing a guy into prison because there was an armed robbery and he robbed a place a few years ago. It's just a bit short-sighted and tunnel-visioned for me in a ironic turnabout from what I've been accused of by assuming she must be telling the truth because stats don't support the claim that she's "probably lying." Which is not what I've said, by the way.

Do I think of Enzo as a rapist? An uncomfortable thing stemming from this is that I don't know how to think of Enzo. I'm not comfortable dismissing Philomena's claims, and I'm not comfortable saying "Yes, he definitely did." It's a suspect situation and there is a cloud over it. I can put it aside intellectually and when criticizing Enzo in the future, remember that it is there but not hold it against him like a conviction of which there was plenty of ample evidence. But it's also quite hard to ignore the whole mess and pretend that what obviously happened was that Enzo had consensual sex with a mentally stable participant and that everyone was happy and she had a mental break two days later and filed charges against him that we can all laugh at, ha-ha. I don't think it has to be one or the other, because it's one of those situations where it's not clearly one or the other.

You're right, but why is it insane? It's not only a mental thing to lie about rape, or a moral thing, but a pragmatic thing. Look how quick people were to jump on anything that made her story appear to be shaky from a cohesive narrative perspective (which real life doesn't behave as anyway).

Argh, I know what you are saying in your second statement, but I just disagree. Not on the whole point. Has she lied? Sure. Is that awful? Sure. That's not the same as saying she is more likely to lie. It says something about her character as an even younger teenager, sure, but I don't know if it qualifies as a pattern of behavior or as something that discredits a claim. As I said to #1-wwf-fan earlier: If it were a choice between her and a unscrupulous individual and their stories were in complete contradiction to each other, I might be inclined to predict the honest person telling the truth whilst still doing an investigation. But, as cunty Savio seems to be relishing in doing, there are exceptions to everything. I know that when I was younger, my honesty paid off and got someone into trouble because they had a reputation of telling fibs. I'm ashamed of that to this day, but the amount of women who have lied about being raped and then get raped is probably significant enough within that marginal statistic to warrant not coloring all women who lie about rape once as women who lie about rape 100 times.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying she isn't lying because of stats. Please don't run us down that path again, because I am likely to get distracted by it, haha. My sole disagreement here is almost semantic (well, not really -- I can't think of the term I want though -- just woke up) on how we interpret statistics in this case. I think the position you're taking in this one, while I said I can understand it earlier (and I can), is way too absolute. And I think this is really our only point of contention, to be honest:

* Do you take a complaint from someone with a troublesome past with a "grain of salt" as #1-wwf-fan said, or do you take it seriously and let the falsehoods in it fall out on their own?

Personally, I go with the latter option, because I believe that false accusations are extremely hard to maintain, and that frankly the paranoia of men who worry about this does stem from misogyny in society and culture. As I said earlier, all you need is an alibi, another witness or some contradictory evidence (not as an onus, but as something that completely eliminates the accusation from the realm of possibility) and you've completely exposed someone as a felon. And that's a huge part of what makes lying about rape insane. Not impossible; just insane.

The problem with the grain of salt approach is that too many people fall through the cracks. People with rough pasts, substance abuse issues or that are simply coming up against a man that "couldn't/wouldn't do that." We know enough now that lots of the "couldn't/wouldn't" is bullshit, unfortunately. You don't need to change "innocent until proven guilty" in a legal sense, or shift the burden of proof. You don't need to throw everyone accused in jail on the assumption that the accuser is telling the truth because of stats (what a weapon that would be). It's just simply an attitude towards an accusation from the get-go. And to be perfectly honest, I think it's common sense: We'll treat it seriously.

I guess we depart further on where that serious line is. Some would have you believe that if you can prove she's lied about it in the past, then that's it. I don't agree with that for a second. Crying wolf and all that. And to be honest, and you used this word earlier, I think it's an intuition thing. What bothers me is a lot of people took the "what a liar" position as soon as this story came out (even before evidence of lying), which is gross to me. From what I've gathered about this case, in particular, Enzo had sex with a teenage girl that was drugged up, possibly because he was drugged up, and she went to the hospital and claimed later it was non-consensual after texting her friends about it. It's a fucking mess, but it's not not serious. Even without the claims of rape, it's still messy. I can completely understand why WWE has distanced themselves from this guy, and I'll take whatever shots at the company I can, but I think they are completely in the right on this.

To your original point: Will people always think of Enzo as a rapist? I can't speak for anyone else. The original surge here was counter to that and seemed extra focused on protesting Enzo's innocence because it was he said/she said. I think we're both talking about larger communities. Some might, I guess. But my feelings with this are dark because we just don't know. It's a situation we're agnostic on, and I think it's irresponsible for anyone to take any certain stance on it re: guilt versus she's lying. And I don't think proving her a liar proves she's lying about this. It proves that she is capable of lying, and that she has lied -- but that's like throwing a guy into prison because there was an armed robbery and he robbed a place a few years ago. It's just a bit short-sighted and tunnel-visioned for me in a ironic turnabout from what I've been accused of by assuming she must be telling the truth because stats don't support the claim that she's "probably lying." Which is not what I've said, by the way.

Do I think of Enzo as a rapist? An uncomfortable thing stemming from this is that I don't know how to think of Enzo. I'm not comfortable dismissing Philomena's claims, and I'm not comfortable saying "Yes, he definitely did." It's a suspect situation and there is a cloud over it. I can put it aside intellectually and when criticizing Enzo in the future, remember that it is there but not hold it against him like a conviction of which there was plenty of ample evidence. But it's also quite hard to ignore the whole mess and pretend that what obviously happened was that Enzo had consensual sex with a mentally stable participant and that everyone was happy and she had a mental break two days later and filed charges against him that we can all laugh at, ha-ha. I don't think it has to be one or the other, because it's one of those situations where it's not clearly one or the other.

Ultimately, I agree with KIRA: I'm glad he's off my TV. In a joking way because he's a horrible wrestler. In a more serious way, because I think he's been clearly irresponsible with fame and his decisions and I, frankly, don't think he deserves it. And I don't think anyone owes it to him to employ him either. And that's not the accusations; I just don't think talent-based industries should be forced to hire specific individuals if their skills don't fit the role. I supported the WWE firing Emma, for example. In a deadly serious way, I don't want to see someone who might be a rapist on my light entertainment, sorry. I don't have to; you can't make me. I don't wish the Cosby shankings on Enzo, because I don't know, but I don't have to clap my hands and go along with his program until I do.

I posted at-length about Enzo's accuser below the relevant news articles, but here's a "digest" of the main points that damage her credibility:

------
She wrote, "I'm married to a woman named Depression[,] & she is my lover... Most days[,] we just lay in bed & refuse to get up."

Does this woman have a real job?

(Other than her hobbies of Instagramming and fretting in-bed all day??)

Is she living on Social Security / disability insurance payments???

This apparent lack-of-work might account-for the allegations that she's making claims to try-and-get a legal settlement out-of Mr. Arndt.

Source: http://disq.us/p/1slqm3x

------
It certainly seems this woman had psychiatric issues -before- meeting Enzo Amore.

This woman sounds histrionic; and histrionic people tend to be more-suggestible than the general population.

If she spoke with a therapist during those 4 days between her encounter with Enzo and her report thereof, then it is plausible the therapist could-have asked leading questions and more-or-less suggested a more-sinister context than what actually transpired.

Cross-reference: false memory syndrome!

Sources: http://disq.us/p/1slqkaf
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...kflannery.html
http://www.massey.ac.nz/~trauma/issues/1998-3/gow1.htm

------
Indeed, scientism better-serves the pursuit of justice than does hearsay.

Up-here in Wisconsin, the Department of Justice has hundreds of rape-testing kits that haven't been used, simply because the District Attorney's Office over-estimated the number of verifiable "violations" claimed.

These unverifiable allegations of, "He -touched- me!" is just another development of the "stranger danger" craze that emerged from anecdotal childcare scares in the 1980s.

Now, those children are grown-up but still imagining / fabricating transgressions.

Sources: http://disq.us/p/1sl62b4
http://www.aaets.org/article13.htm
https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...sted/97243424/

is not hearsay. It is direct testimonial evidence from a person with first hand knowledge of the alleged fact being asserted.

A third party's statement of "She told me, 'He touched me!'" would be an example of hearsay if it was being used to assert the fact that he touched her.

thread is fucking lit still have to come back for pages 9-12 but get ur popcorn ready brothers we're debating rape accusations

A dastardly main event draw.

Noid has never neg-repped me. :D

I think they are right, I didn't think it was legit either. Took 1 day for her friend to share that she was in a group text bragging about it.

Plus she already has told some big lies like when she lied about being pregnant.

As the old saying goes, don't cry wolf. Also don't brag about banging somebody then come out later and say it was not consensual.

You've always been on the right side of history.

You just had to slip your name into the marquee, didn't you? :p

But did the marquee consent to that?

They were both drunk. It's fine.

I'd prepare myself just in case it's a particularly litigious marquee with a checkered past as to the truth about these things. IJS.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oVruAfu53z4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

#Bars

I love what he's trying to say tbh

I can not objectively comment on the music itself

I can.

It sucks.

Don't even need to watch it to tell you it sucks.

WORLDSTAR! that was really good, its like he's Eminem part deux or something. Hope he sues that skeezy bitch and TMZ and VKM. Shit was consensual, fuck you!

WWE should bring him back and give him the gimmick "Capt. Consensual"

Thought it was pretty good for what it is. Sounded better second time I played it.

I liked it. He's justified in fuck you in this situation. I think it's a good voice to hear in a time where so many men are falling to allegations.

He reminds me of ICP and yeah... when I was young...

Reminded me more of Lil Wyte with raspiness of his voice at times. Doesn't quite have Lil Wyte's flow but he's not bad at all.

First verse seems so outta place with the last 2 verses.

lol fuck nothing more hackneyed than "Phoenix rising from the ashes".

And flipping off the camera

I get his anger though - provided what we believe is true, and the girl's allegations are false.

Can't wait for her diss track.

"DEPRESSION IS MY MISTRESS"

that actually wasn't bad at all. i thought it was going to blow so bad, but i enjoyed it

It could be the greatest rap of all time and I wouldnt know it

Had a dream last night that Enzo showed up in New Japan to challenge Okada and the crowd went nuts.

"Grippin' my consensual... penis."

Sure glad I didn't kink shame Enzo in this thread.

Ooh, that sure stung you. You're obviously obsessed with me, by the way. It won't happen, Savio, because I actually like to have fun.

Also, rape =/= kink. But I wouldn't expect scum like you to be able to tell the difference. Insert an obvious reminder that you're a cunt here.