I just figured he'd have the singlet on underneath the Shield gear. Wouldn't need to change. They did take the vest he had on off. I wasn't a big deal I just tji k it would have made his reentrance better.

Loved Finn Very An, easily Finn's best match since joining WWE. The main event was an overbooked mess, but in an almost endearing way. Think it worked out better without Roman and I don't mean that in a shifting on Roman way, but the Angle slams and Seth and Dean doing the double spear through the barricade instead of the Roman one were fun spots.

Probably one of the best WWE PPVs in some time. I said it when it was announced: Panic WWE is best WWE.

I would not call that a great ppv by any stretch, it’s was ok-good though. It honestly seemed like good Raw. Anytime the main event is a clusterfuck the POV goes down a notch. When the announcer said Demon Baylor never lost I knew that was it for AJ. I fast forward through the cruiser weights cuz lol cruiserweights. Asuka didn’t really excite me but thought it was a good match. Was hoping Mickie James won. Elias is the future and so is JASON Jordon. But yeah, not the worst ppv but definitely not a great one.

The cruiser tag match was the second best match on the show for me, so you might get that impression of you fast forwarded it.

Oh that's funny. I don't see you making a similar comment every time they pair white dudes together.

Once again the plight of the white man is completely ignored for the SJW diatribe.

My quick thoughts on the event: pretty good, not great, but pretty good. I know the Elias/Jordan stuff was to fill time, but honestly, I thought that really killed a lot of the momentum of the show building up to the main event. AJ/Balor was a great match for what it was... can't wait to see what they'd do with a belt on the line. I was shocked to see Kurt do as much as he did. Unless they are going to run with a longer physical storyline between he & Miz, I really didn't think it was necessary for him to score the fall, but whatever. Kurt is a better Roman Reigns than Roman Reigns, that's for sure!

On Raw Talk, Kurt mentioned that he "asked Daniel Bryan for a favor" regarding AJ and eluded to owing him one in return. After seeing how it went down last night (and a stronger possibility of WWE granting DB one last match), my thoughts on a potential Wrestlemania match between Kurt & Bryan have grown. I can easily see DB call out Angle for that return favor for a bout on "the grandest stage of 'em all." At the very least, you can have HHH (fighting for Steph) & Kurt vs. Shane & DB. Makes total sense. Have HHH & Shane do more of the physical stuff and have Kurt & DB stay more mat-based wrestling.

They just had 4 white dude team up with a monster from hell. That is diversity.

Shut the fuck up.

And here I was thinking all black people were friends. Damn.

CACAW CACAW

Oh shit, is Raven entering?

Reviews I got were mixed and actually quite underwhelmed by the main event.

You're right, but also:

"Kurt Angle's neck might be broken. Let's drag him to the back where we can assess."

"We're at a 2-on-5 disadvantage. Instead of winning this match, let's fight the Miz back up the ramp to where his comrades are."

"Let's win a TLC Match by bringing in a garbage truck."

"Instead of retreating I'm going to run into my oblivion."

"After we destroy The Shield, we get to rule Raw in perfect harmony on a wrestling show, where I imagine the following content will be us holding hands and singing for all eternity."

There's a lot about this match and it's build on this show that did not make a lick of sense. It wouldn't have been out of the question for the match to end with Kane pinning Braun or vice versa.

I wasn’t a fan of the main event. It was chaotic, just not in a good way.

Plus, anything trying to follow Styles/Balor just didn’t stand a chance.

Sounds like they tried to get way too cute.

A lot of people online saying Asuka gave emma too much, and that she just should have squashed her in 2 minutes.

That is so stupid to me. Asuka had never been about squashing people, and having her do so is a waste of her talent. She has the unique ability to look exceptionally strong while keeping the match competetive and making her opponent look good. Only the best in the world are capable of doing this.

Asuka's debut could not have gone better. Asuka looked like a beast, but Emma looked great too. It strengthened the division as a whole, instead of just one competitor.

I dunno about that. Asuka def shouldn't have squashed her, but she did give Emma a bit too much. Emma is basically the dregs of the Raw womens division, at least in the way it is presented, and she went toe to toe with Asuka for a good amount of time. Hell I even thought Emma was going to win it a couple times cuz WWE. Asuka didn't look dominant at all in the match; she looked like she was in trouble against the worst in the division. Didn't make her look like she is worthy of all the hype behind her at all.

Good match though.

In terms of match control, it was even, yes. But Asuka's style of offense, and the intensity in which she executes it is what made her look very strong to me.

And while Emma hasn't won a ton of matches, she's been competetive enough in them where it's beleivable that her character sees this as her biggest oppurtunity yet and brings it harder than she ever has before. It's not like a Jinder situation or anything.

Now people want squash matches on PPV. Jesus.

The Asuka match was tight, and Emma is amazing.

Love Emma and Asuka, but a competitive match is not the way to debut Asuka to the average fan who has never seen her before. When your story is "this dominant woman is showing up," the match needs to tell the story of dominance. Getting beaten up but Emma doesn't really do that. If you don't want a squash on PPV, don't put the match on the PPV.

One COULD argue it's a delicate balance. I thought it was a very good match, but I think Asuka spent a bit too much time underneath.

She probably wanted to have a bit of a war and was happy to give Emma that much, but a big debut maybe should have called for a little more dominance.

Still a fun match though... will be interesting to see how she's treated on the main roster.

Didn't even need to be a squash... I just think Asuka should have had that little bit of ascendancy throughout the match, even if Emma was competitive. To me they had her wrassle like a white meat babyface needing to overcome odds. They could just write it off as "Big Stage jitters" plus probably wanted to humble her a bit now that she's stepping up.

Nothing wrong with a squash match on PPV if it fits the situation. Not every match has to be about making everyone look even with each other.

If everyone is even with each other, then how are they supposed to stand out? So many people at the bottom of the card would be so much more over if they actually did less shit.

Shoulda brought her in with a top class opponent. Let her tear it up with sascha right out of the gate. Emma isnt over. Emma is never going to be over. Which would be fine if she were a good hand but she isnt. Shes a pretty face that can eat pins.

Emma should have worked the pre show.

With that said the match was as good as you could have hoped. Crowd clearly knew asuka so its good we dont have to waste time debuting her, theres no need.

Asuka could have taken some hits and acted like she was having a great time. "Let me see what you've got, Emma." So she lets Emma hit her a few times and does that psycho "Now you're gonna die" thing. I mean, if they really felt like they needed to pad it for time or whatever. I don't know why, they can basically make PPVs as long or as short as they want now.

They make every babyface wrestle like they're white meat. They do this with Nakamura too. It drives me nuts, because they sign these talents because they are larger than life in the ring. Will they be able to cross over? Everything goes extraordinarily well with their packaging and presentation (this is one thing that I will not dispute Triple H is fantastic at), and then they come up and their first match has a loser put them in a fucking chinlock.

It's weird, because they're so hands-on with everything, but they are less meticulous about the stories matches tell than ever before (unless it's something like the bear hunt that was that fucking main event). They're like "Asuka beats Emma," but no one pays any attention to how she does it or what that content makes people feel about her. The achievement of every match is just who wins and loses, which they openly tell you doesn't matter, because every match has to be the same for some fucking reason.

That's why Braun seemingly got as over as he did. It's not because he's that good, it's because he's fucking different and got to actually kill guys.

The only problem with that (which isn't avoided in what they actually did) is that they probably feel they don't have the depth to blow the Asuka/Sasha match. They want to "save" it, and because there are only six women on RAW or whatever, they have to stall for time.

The women either need their own show or they need a lot more to have a hierarchy.

Even more of a reason to do it. Give em 25 min. Have them go out. Highlight the stregnth of the devision with the asuka addition. 6 months later building the rematch writes itself. Good enough matches will get themselves over.

They need more depth,since they dont have that they need one womens division. Eauality is nice on paper but itsdamaging the product.

She got called up to the main roster from NXT? Not sure why I'd need any more reason for concern than that, given Vince's not great track record with that. Yes, I know he doesn't have complete creative control like he used to, but I do worry that she may get lost in the shuffle if Triple H can't at least get Vince to book or help book her in a way that will continue to make her look like an undefeated Badass. That's all.

And I'm sorry I was so judgmental of you before. Not cool on my part, and I hope you can forgive me and we can move on.

That's why I think they need their own show. Gets the division together. There are only so many times you can see the same permutations of Asuka vs. (x) before it gets boring.

It would have fewer viewers than 205 live...

Watched the show

Really enjoyed both women's matches, as well as Balor/Styles.

Main Event was good in an "entertainment" sense, and fun to watch. I know people are ragging on that other poster (too lazy to scroll up to remind myself who) about Angle coming back out in his singlet...... but honestly..... I was hoping for the exact same thing.

Would be me. Thought it was a given when he got taken out.

If they have their own show Asuka would have more matches vs (x) and be even more boring.

Emma has been putting together a believable air of credibility for more than a few weeks now. But that's just coming from someone who is paying a lot of attention to weekly occurences.

She was touting her unrecognized relevance well before Asuka was even mentioned on main air.

But tune in whenever and naysay whatever you'd like. Shit is still good to me.

Asuka got over on competitive matches. Let her rip.

Oh well if she said it then it must be so

Emma is good. Finally getting a bit of spotlight on the main roster too. Yeah, as the jobber bad guy, but that is better than nothing.

Its a useful role.

Yeah, for sure...... and better Emma than Dana Brooke, because Emma can actually go and look like a legit threat.

Maybe. Maybe not. It depends who was booking it. I think a good women's show would do better than 205 Live. On equal grounding, I agree with you. But even if it didn't do well because women don't draw or whatever, then I think it's more of a reason to get them off your bread-and-butter shows. Although you can't just scrap the women altogether because then they'll look sexist from a PR perspective (although that might actually get the girls over). This covers you from that and clears up Raw and Smackers.

You can still keep Lana, JoJo, Renee, Maria, Maryse, etc. There will be "hot women" for the dwindling teenage audience to perve on. You can even do the occasional exhibition match to promote the brand on Raw or whatever.

Anyway, as I type this there are probably plans to bring in Ronda Rousey for WrestleMania, so the women will probably draw better than anyone except Brock for Mania, making this all a bit silly.

I really like Emma. I think I subjectively like her more than she is objectively good. On the mic she's kind of annoying, but I like her in the ring and she looks amazing. It's not a knock on Emma when I say that Asuka should have killed her.

Emma could look like a threat, but I don't think she does look like a threat. I think Emma would have benefit from a less dominant match, because then she has something to react to. A babyface could mock her losing so quickly and then you can move into a program between them. Emma vs. Bayley or whatever. Emma could try and bring out Bayley's "dark side," because she knows what it is like to get to the main roster and finding out that all your fans have abandoned you.

Instinctively my head says “seperating the women off would be awful”, then I realised watching TLC that I skipped Alicia Fox vs. Sasha Banks, and Alexa Bliss vs. Mickey James, so clearly they don’t have my interest right now anyway.

Although I also skipped both Cruiser matches, and Elias vs. Jason Jordan, and didn’t enjoy the main event so maybe I’m just not engaged in most of the product.

I don't think that's your fault, XL.

I just realized that is Christian is your avatar. Beautiful.

I know it’s almost “too obvious” to align Emma with Peyton Royce and Billie Kay but I think I’d do it. Switch Emma to SmackDown and bring the Iconic Duo up from NXT to second her.

No, I know that.

It’s definitely habitual at this point, and part of what keeps me watching is coming here.

Likewise. Wrestling fandom is such a big part of my formative years, I don't want to just toss everything into the fire. I still love thinking about it and analyzing it, but god is it just so fucking bad right now, haha.

I legitimately prefer listening to podcasts about wrestling than watching actual wrestling. I will spend hours a week listening to stuff when I'm travelling, going for a walk or just unwinding at home. I spend the time on wrestling-based content; just not wrestling. Not watching wrestling is actively taking up my wrestling time.

I've tried other avenues. I bought an EVOLVE show. I can't remember which one it was. 47 or something. A whole bunch of guys were injured so SoCal Val came out with her faction -- one of the dudes was Caleb Konley -- and they did a whole bunch of unadvertised stuff. The main event was Chris Hero vs. Zack Sabre, Jr. I think. I say I think, because I didn't get that far into it. All...the fucking...matches...were the same. All of them. There was this dude who looked like he came from the trailer park. Worked indy style and did flips and kicked out of everything. The the next guys came in and did the same thing. Rich Swann took a Canadian Destroyer on the apron or something. I just zoned out. It was so fucking boring. There was no ebb and flow to the show. There were no valleys and therefore there were no peaks.

I paid money for that. It was only like $10 or whatever, but I had financial interest and they still couldn't keep me. I wasn't outraged or anything like that, I just walked off because they couldn't hold my attention.

People have suggested New Japan, but I am worried it is going to be more of the same. I don't know why, I just haven't made the financial commitment yet. But anyway, that's where my fandom is at.

It is obvious, but I understand the impulse. Emma on SmackDown would be interesting. It'd be a "fresh coat" for her anyway. I think there are legs for Peyton and Billie on the main roster and that they are two of the women that Vince and Kevin will "get," if you catch my drift.

My personal idea for Emma was to have her cosplay as Shawn Michaels with Tamina as her Diesel. For whatever reason, dudes seem to love cosplay. They also love Shawn Michaels. I mean, you don't need to say "She is HBK." But give her the hats and the glasses and the broken heart motifs. Dudes will get boners and Tamina can keep a job. I actually like her when she's not center-stage.

If the women had their own show, I'd give Emma a nice long run with some sort of Women's Intercontinental Championship. Why more belts? It gives the illusion of rank and depth. It's another toy they can market. Instead of giving everyone a turn with the Women's Title, you can keep that a little sacred. Whatever, it's just an idea.

In real WWE, I think she'd make a great career rival for Paige. I liked their stuff in NXT, and I think they kind of "fit" as a pairing. The Four Horsewomen are linked in my brain, and Paige and Emma kind of are too. You could have the Four Horsewomen running one show and Paige and Emma dominating the other. But then you've also got to plug in Alexa Bliss somewhere. And Nia Jax when they decide they want to make The Rock happy. And Nikki Bella when she decides she wants to get some screen time.

Maybe that’s what’s kept/keeping me going; I spend very little on Wrestling.

I split the cost of the network with a friend and if WWE decided to stop you from accessing at multiple addresses I don’t think I’d resubscribe. I watch Raw/SmackDown online, I don’t buy merch, I don’t go to shows (my wife took me to a house show a couple of years ago and the 3 guys relentlessly chanting “SUPER DRAGON” was enough for me to not want to go again), I didn’t even buy the video game last year (and haven’t this year yet, and I don’t think I’ve spent my own money on it for a few years now).

Maybe that's it. I've always spend very little on wrestling actually, haha. I would order the occasional PPV and buy the occasional video game, but I also don't buy merch and I don't go to live events even when they come here. I think spending money on other wrestling was sort of a desperation maneuver.

I'm only saying it made sense for her match with Asuka to be a competitive one.

I don't think it did to crowds by the sound of it. I just listened to Meltz and Alvarez talk about how her Raw debut killed crowd interest in her, and she left less over than when she walked in.

I know she "got over" in NXT having competitive matches, but keep in mind that Tyler Breeze was also a main eventer down there. Hell, Emma mattered down there. The NXT crowd care about getting themselves and the show over, so they will cheer anyone who fits the paradigm of being funny, cool, ironic or, yes, sometimes even good. The genuinely good reactions seem to trump the others though. You can "feel" the difference between the buzz of Gargano/Ciampa vs. Revival and Dick Dickerson dicking around. There's nothing literally like that in NXT, but you know what I mean.

I don't think you can gauge how well an act will do on the main roster by how well it works in NXT. They just don't translate. One is more professional wrestling and the other is more sports entertainment. Asuka came in to NXT with instant nerd cred, was put over as a big thing and pretty had Emma and Dana Brooke running, from memory. She eventually became embedded with the long title run (I maintain that Triple H was scared of moving her up), people chasing her, and the crowd eating up everything down there. It was a very NXT act is my point. It had the benefit of a certain type of audience.

Most people who watch Raw have never really encountered her. They try to sell her as dominant. I think, that's the vibe I've gotten from all the hype around her debut. Tick, tock, she's coming to get you, basically. But she came and got punched right in the fucking face. It'd be like Arnie tripping over as the Terminator. It's Shockmaster stumbling through the wall, only less ridiculous. But it's the same principle of "this is super serious" and then it happens and it's not.

You've said you're going to tell a story of dominance with her. She needs to dominate. It's really that simple. Anything else is a break in that story and doesn't make sense, so why would anyone keep up with it? They might be able to get her over as the woman who has the most competently wrestled matches in time. But any idea that there's going to be some sort of revolution in credibility for women's wrestling with the debut of Asuka, who could do that, is sadly mistaken when she comes out and has the same match as everyone else. And because they do this with everyone except Brock no one should be surprised.

They wrote a match that made sense, crowd took a nap.

How could Joe from Alabama differentiate Asuka from Sasha Banks at this point? Other than Asuka is Japanese?

Did you watch it? Crowd seemed into it.

Ohhh, you said Raw. Haven't seen that yet. Watching it now. I was just talking about TLC, since this is the TLC thread.

The problem a lot of NXT talent have getting over is that you need to be emotionally invested in them to get emotionally invested in what they're doing. It's a lot like when employers say "must have 5 years experience." Well, how am I meant to get that experience if no one will hire anyone inexperienced. Fandom for a lot of these talents on the main roster comes with "must have already been a fan." Okay then.

When you look at the talent that worked on the main roster, they basically started from scratch. The Shield wasn't an NXT gimmick. Neither was Braun Strowman. The Wyatt Family was, granted, and Bray has probably gone further than anyone else from an NXT transition. Maybe Charlotte, but she was top babyface in NXT and thrived as a heel on the main roster. Sasha was heel in NXT and now works babyface on Raw, if you want to call her a success.

The pre-packaged star doesn't work the way they think it does. And I don't know why they would expect it to considering more people watch Raw than have the Network.

Ah, sorry, I was just conflating all my Asuka/Emma opinions into one space.

No they didnt. They went to sleep for the heat. They were into Asuka tho

I getnit. Your dick gets hard for emma. But youre blinded by your bias.

I so thought that Emmalina was going to be the thing for her. Once Vince and Kevin Dunn worked out that she a boner machine, it'd be push, push, push. Man, was I wrong.

Yeah baring mass injury there is nothing for her tondo but collecg a pay check

Are you talking Raw or TLC? I'm watching Raw on the DVR RIGHT NOW and Asuka is walking to the ring. I'll let you know how it feels in a bit.

Agreed. It sucks, too, because she shouldn't be relegated to "occasional Jobber to the Stars" status.

Then again, there's people on both brands getting that or nothing at all, at least on TV.

Who would you push Emma harder than though?

Yeah, the Raw match was a dead zone.

Also, I think Emma is better than Bayley.

I'd agree with that. I think she's better at pretty much everything actually. But Bayley has got capital in the hugging fan favorite thing even though they royally fucked that. But if they put them together and even let Emma win, I'd be down with it.

TLC

Bruh, you wildin

Asuka was over. Emma was over like a fart in church

Emma is only ironically over. Like how Curtis Axel got cheered on Raw because he's a lovable goof. She's the "odd duck out" so people occasionally make some noise for her. I don't think there's any genuine investment from anyone that isn't on the internet that thinks she's mistreated and is likely jacking off to her pictures.

Prime j/o material tho

I could get behind a fart in church.

But yeah, that's fine. I wasn't even trying to say that Emma was over. I was saying that it made sense for her to have offense in the match from a kayfabe sense and that the crowd was into it.

Ill give you that, absolutely. Im just saying no one bought it.

And yes, I would lick Emma's butthole at any given time.

I find that real world logic and wrestling logic sometimes don't match up. I'm all for kayfabe and all that, but sometimes it's better to just appeal to an emotional fabrication, and avoid the reality of parity. Just let Asuka kill some cunts, basically.