What does religion have to do with it?? :rofl:

:rofl:

Why is everybody so pissed off?

That was my own assumption about this hypothetical nerdy midwestern kid with parents who don’t tolerate naughty language AEW should be targeting. Maybe a Christian upbringing isn’t at play here. Maybe he’s not even from the Midwest! We won’t know until we find him.

False dichotomy. Getting someone who has value because they are one of the biggest success stories in the WWE and using them to their strengths is not a bad idea. Wasn’t it you that said they should just sign good talent regardless of where they come from? Shouldn’t they just use good ideas no matter where they have also been used? ;)

Being different for the sake of being different, or bad because someone else chose good, isn’t productive. You know this. You’re just being difficult for the sake of it because I’m under your skin.

Believe it or not, the country you live in has loads of conservative people, loads of religious people, and loads of people who live in households that aren’t going to be receptive to the sort of programming AEW puts out. Evidence: THE FUCKING RATINGS!!!

When something doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. I know that’s a really hard concept to wrap your mind around. But the people saying “Hey, maybe this was a bad idea, or maybe that was a bad idea,” aren’t the fucking crazies.

It’s much easier to just misrepresent what someone is saying instead of actually responding to their points.

Like it or not, explicit content limits your reach.

Damn. Sorry for misrepresenting your point by implying that religion might play a factor in this hypothetical situation you brought up.

Wait...

That was in response to you. I didn’t bring up religious people, you did. And yeah, they exist. That’s not the only reason you would limit your explicit content when trying to attract a general audience though.

I hope the upcoming attempt to save face includes another Spider-Man analogy that exposes your disconnect from reality in one amazing post.

Tony Khan is out there bragging about DVR numbers now. :lol:

Can’t wait for Meltzer to talk about how that is a real measure of a company’s success. Then never bring up Raw or SmackDown’s.

So you agree that it’s a reason, double down on it as a reason but when I brought it up as a reason I was misrepresenting your point. It sounds like you were looking for a “gotcha” and go caught. Admit it.

Lol, disconnect from reality? I’m not the one in denial that AEW is losing viewers. And that is in large part because of the product they are putting out.

Ugh, back to this sealioning. It’s one reason. Of many. Anyone who has worked in any kind of media knows how explicit content limits your reach. This is not a strange concept. And yes, when you bring up something that someone didn’t say, it is misrepresenting their point.

When someone tells a child they shouldn’t stand on furniture, it can be for the child’s safety. It could also be to protect the furniture. It isn’t necessarily one or the other.

Listen man, people can think AEW is skyrocketing and on the brink of putting WWE out of business and that wouldn’t change the fact that the view you express about yourself and your role in certain arguments are not views that a sane person should hold.

And there’s the tap.

Turning wrestlers that a large fan-base wants to cheer can be detrimental. Overexposing your product is detrimental. Presenting predictable filler can be detrimental. Evidence: The declining ratings. They are down from Thanksgiving Eve. Throw ad hominem at me all you want. You aren’t sticking to the points because you know you’ve got nothing.

Actually what I’m doing is harping on that Spider-Man analogy because it was the greatest peak into how you perceive yourself and every argument presented to you yet. And it was batshit crazy. And all the lame “There’s the tap!” “Swing and a miss!”, “Try harder!” phrases you’ve picked up on as cool things to say in online debates don’t carry the weight you want them to.

Part of you probably knows you exposed a bit too much with that analogy. That’s why you get uncomfortable with it being brought up. You go ahead and look up more cool-sounding phrases intended to make yourself feel right though. It seems to be a “checkmate” in your reality.

Lol, I don’t even remember what analogy you are referring to. Please remind me. But I’m the one actually staying on-point here. We’re talking about AEW’s declining ratings and the possible reasons for them. You keep trying to veer away from that to try and go after my personality (or at least your perception of it, which you get monstrously wrong). And you’ve been that way since I called you out that one time, because I think you think you’ve got to be the smartest guy in the room. Since then it’s just been irrelevant trash from you.

Let me try and correct your course a bit:

Do you deny that AEW’s ratings are declining?

That question is specific and on the subject matter. Instead of going off into these insecure places where you keep trying to grab a gotcha or insult me instead of my actual arguments, can you kindly stay on topic, Mr. Internet Debate, and respond to that simple, relevant question?

I COULD go ahead and “continue” a discourse about the direction of AEW’s ratings that I was never actually having in the first place so that your warped view of reality can more easily stay on track.

I COULD explain in a new, less sarcastic/smartass manner why your Daniel Bryan gripe is another in a long line of weird, desperate reaches.

I COULD explain the horrible flaw in your attempted “gotcha” when you accused me of misrepresenting your point and how your explanation just made it worse.

All of that would lead absolutely nowhere because of the bigger issue which is that you argue based on a reality and a view of yourself that is fucking crazy. You’re free to head back to the Survivor Series thread and try to explain how you’re a rational person but barring that happening, I don’t trust your ability to assess any argument being made to you.

The gift that keeps on giving. I'm still chuckling over the fact that Noid doesn't have me on ignore and thought The Rock actually made an appearance at Survivor Series.

Don't forget that everyone is simply obsessed with him.

Said like a true mark, King.

Ratings and demos mean nothing for wrestling

The NHL does lower ratings and demos than Dynamite on the same Network but has $100 million dollar in advertising. It's a "legacy" brand. The WWE is inching towards being that. Stephanie McMahon does not get NEARLY enough credit for all her work changing the perception of the company in the business world.

That’s a really long-winded way of saying you can’t do those things. We’re in the ratings thread, we’re discussing ratings. I have asked you a direct question and you’re avoiding it.

I will continue to actually stay on topic and explain my rationale even further. When you have a beloved babyface that people actually want to see, it can be detrimental to that audience to transform them into an intended antagonist.

Bryan Danielson in AEW is on a much smaller scale, but it was stupid to turn Austin heel at Mania 17. It was stupid to turn Goldberg heel. It was stupid to turn Ric Flair heel in 1999. Sometimes the wrestler in question is a tremendous performer in that heel role, but people don’t necessarily want to see it at that point in time in that particular context. If you are a fan of Bryan Danielson, seeing his presentation in AEW, no matter how good he is at portraying smugness or controlling a match, can be really fucking jarring.

That’s not the only factor. It’s one of many. The silly wrestlers that undermine the sincerity of your product are another — especially when they contrast to things you want to be taken sincerely. The overexposure of stars by having them wrestle so long almost every week is another. The choice of their opponents are another, because the outcomes are foregone conclusions, they challenge the credibility of the stars you’re putting them against, and they are drawn out attempts to milk drama from a place you cannot milk it from effectively. There’s also just so much wrestling that people are going to prioritize and/or fall behind then realize they don’t care.

And the explicit content is another. Some people may not like swearing because they’re religious. I didn’t say that was the only reason, so I’m not sure why you’re holding onto this like a “gotcha.” It could also be that they just don’t like swearing around their kids. Or don’t like hearing a juvenile product. Or it just further embeds the stereotype that wrestling is quite often trashy TV. I didn’t exclude religion from my reasoning, but it’s just blatantly incorrect to represent my point like it was the crux when you were the one who introduced it.

I’m sure it’s fun for you to say I am disconnected from reality to try and dismiss my points without actually arguing against them (although I’m sure you COULD, right?), but it’s quite ironic that you cannot respond to a direct question, which I am going to pose again:

Do you deny that AEW’s ratings are declining? Let’s see who is disconnecting from reality.

Whoa! Are we making fair and logical arguments now?

They mean what a network wants them to mean at the end of the day. They could be used to tout its success, or they could drop wrestling tomorrow citing them as not being sufficient enough. Numbers can be made to do tricks.

To play devil’s advocate, the NHL is a sport where different teams are going to be playing against each other, which means that even though the week-to-week ratings might be lower, you may end up reaching more people over the period of a season. But it’s true that even if that weren’t the case, hockey fans are probably more valuable to advertisers than many wrestling fans. That’s just the perception, and it may be backed up by trends in spending and the ability of those people to influence.

The analysis and interpretation of the ratings by many wrestling fans is irritating though, because as you point out, they don’t mean what wrestling fans make them out to mean. At the end of the day, a network is going to care more about the advertising revenue than they are that specific number. If a show that gets 650k, a demo of 0.28 or whatever, is more profitable than a show that does double that, having 1.3 million viewers and a 0.56 in a demo isn’t necessarily going to save you.

And that’s why people who act like Dynamite is “catching” Raw are missing so much of the bigger picture. Never mind that Warner splits the ad revenue with AEW, WWE is an established brand with much broader international exposure and that is a PG show, which is going to open it up to advertisers in different ways. Plus it’s way more successful with women. And there are way more ways to engage now. YouTube, Peacock, Hulu and even alternate deals (some places order the full shows as well as a one hour version).

I think part of it is a hangover from the Monday Night Wars, where cable was advancing, instead of declining, with wrestling at the forefront and the actual fate of the promotions at stake. But a part of it are wrestling journalists looking for a story in the numbers to always have something to print for an audience that is willing to buy it. And wrestling’s nature is testosterone-driven combat, so it lends itself to a natural “A vs. B” scenario, lol.

Like, when it comes to NXT 2.0 and how “old” that audience is: NXT is still shown on the WWE Network, right? I haven’t kept up to date on that story, but do we know how many younger people are watching NXT 2.0 through their PlayStation or whatever? Yet we have such this clear narrative that Vince and Bruce are “failing” with this thing. For all we know, NXT is more profitable to the USA Network with its PG rating and connection to the WWE brand than Dynamite is to TNT with its higher ratings but with the revenue split. Never mind how valuable NXT 2.0 could be to NBC Universal in general in addition to that.

Way more fun to point and laugh at this product that is testing out greener guys, both behind the camera and in front of it, without overexposing them, and calling it an out of touch failure.

The framing of the ratings drives me nuts, lol. But it is fun to point out that allegedly “hip” product managed to climb to 1.2 million people and is now closer to half of that. I’ll admit to enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. And it’s always a nice feeling when you get proven right about something, lol.

Thanksgiving Eve? Okay, I get that is likely going to be down. People might be on the road. I mean, when wrestling is hot Thanksgiving was a pretty huge night for it. And as many people as you have on the road, you’re also going to have people chilling out in front of the TV in anticipation for a holiday too. But to be DOWN from even that? Can people just admit there is something that this product is or isn’t doing that isn’t connecting with as many wrestling fans as it could be?

If you like it? Fine. But stop telling me it’s “hot” or that it’s growing an audience.

When Noid can’t bring himself to come up with some bullshit that even suits his poor bullshit standards, you know the embarrassment is running deep.

That Survivor Series thread where he basically admitted that he’s irrational and has his own record of events that don’t mesh with the demonstrable events of reality is gonna haunt this poor bastard’s dreams. Just gonna be a lot of:

“You can’t have a rational discussion and here’s the actual proof.”

“YEAH? BUT KENNY OMEGA SUCKS! ARGUE THAT! YOU CAN’T!”

Lol, what the fuck are you even going on about at this point? I haven’t said anything about Kenny Omega in some time. Isn’t he out with an injury? I’m making very clear points you are just ignoring. What on earth has been irrational about any of them? Try and stay on topic.

fan, he's probably going to threaten to put you on ignore.

The survivor series thread just exposed noid as a nincompoop who doesn’t actually bother reading results, which takes 5 seconds of work, and instead reads shit on here and got baited and played into thinking the Rock showed up, posted accordingly, then backtracked and tried to play it off. Fucking glorious really. Showed everybody what a dope he was and why trying to discuss anything with him is a waste of time.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WWE Raw, Monday on USA Network:<br>1,599,000 total viewers<br>P18-49 rating: 0.35 (462,000 viewers)<br><br>Lowest P18-49 for Raw on record.<br><br>�� More demos &amp; analysis: <a href="https://t.co/vLrj7Sjc8N">https://t.co/vLrj7Sjc8N</a> <a href="https://t.co/0KBIqv6nv8">pic.twitter.com/0KBIqv6nv8</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468623439212777475?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This episode was tied for the lowest P18-49 rating for NXT on USA, along with the episode on November 16. The August 3 episode that was preempted to Syfy was lower, with a 0.10 rating.<br><br>NXT ranked #48 among cable originals for the day in the demo, according to Showbuzz Daily.</p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468688338060255236?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No ppv bump for WarGames or the Gargano send-off, yowza

I did something today I haven't done in a LONG time, I looked at WWE's YT page to see how stuff was doing. They used to get several segments from RAW a week that topped a million views (or higher) on YT clips.

Not anymore apparently. Most watched from RAW this week is Edge/Miz at 500k and Becky/Liv at 600k. This is concerning (in general) for wrestling. Not just WWE, but in general. If live viewers drops but social media views go up, it balances out, but if both drop, that's of note. Because so goes WWE so goes wrestling typically.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some examples of what rerun programming does on USA Network in primetime, found on <a href="https://t.co/9xLiLX1oNi">https://t.co/9xLiLX1oNi</a>. Most of these are on less favorable nights than Tuesday and none lower than a 0.14 P18-49 rating.<br><br>NXT has averaged 0.14 since October. <a href="https://t.co/ONsG69DlqA">pic.twitter.com/ONsG69DlqA</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468699235575119874?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

yikes

My spider-senses are tingling...

NXT as it is shouldn't be on T.V. It's more "FCW" ish. It should be Networkk exclusive

I couldn't agree more. If I were USA, I'd be very unhappy with the current NXT product.

It should be a true developmental. Young, green wrestlers mixed with vets to help them alone. Someone like Silas Young, or hell even Gangrel. He still works and is better than he was during his WWE run. Brian Myers would be great. You can still mix in experienced indie guys.