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*facepalm*

SMH, How is that clean?

Pretend its UFC (which yes, I know you don't like it) When Jon Jones faced Chael Sonnen for the title, how clean would the title defense be if Anderson Silva got on stage grabbed a mic and started screaming "Hey Chael look over here at me!" causing Chael to look over?

It isn't "clean" per say, but it is a legitimate pinfall victory. It does a whole lot more than a countout does. Pinning the world champion, whatever the circumstances, is a big deal and he would've been a much bigger deal had it gone down that way.

I don't disagree, what started this discussion was AL saying Curtis should have won clean.

Well, I think he meant "by pinfall." Technically if Cena loses via distraction, he loses "cleanly," there's just more to the context of the situation.

Granted losing by distraction is probably one of the cleanest dirty ways win you can get, but it still isn't clean.

Well, now we're arguing semantics. I'm pretty sure we all understand what he meant now

The first time I ever saw someone do a dive into a wrestler's standard finisher was when Shelton Benjamin did a springboard into Shawn Michaels' Sweet Chin Music in the opening round of the Gold Rush Tournament in 2004. I think it may have been the first time Shawn Michaels wore his baggy pants, as an added bit of trivia.

That spot was amazing and made everyone stand up because Shelton was going for his springboard clothesline, which he regularly did. It was believable that he was going for that move on HBK to try and finish him off, that HBK knew it was coming, and that the kick could lead to the finish.

Since then, we've seen the spot repeated, and it often does make me wonder why someone would try lunging head-first at Orton for the first time in their career. There have been moments where Orton has hit awesome RKOs from guys flying at him. Seth Rollins and CM Punk at WrestleMania XXVI and WrestleMania XXIX both come to mind, because they both hit springboard moves from time-to-time.

I'm not sure where they had their second match, but Shawn Michaels defeated Kurt Angle with Sweet Chin Music after Angle came off the top rope with an axe handle attempt, which is something Angle almost never does. Those are two of the best ever. So maybe my pet peeve with this is merely that -- my own. I will suggest that when something uncharacteristic like this happens, that should be the job of the commentators to convey to the audiences.

"Angle is going to the top rope because HBK has kicked out of everything else Angle has."

Suddenly, as an audience, we have a reason to believe that Angle, who does go for moonsaults occasionally, would be flying in with an axe handle on HBK. A lot of the time the commentators just go "Look at this! Whoa!" I think even referees could help sell these sort of moments by looking a bit confused as to what this wrestler is doing, since they normally don't act in that manner.

I guess what I am trying to say is: This bothers me too, but there is a certain psychology behind a guy trying out something new in a tough match -- especially if his opponent knows him so well and is so resourceful. This should be where the commentators, who should be immersed in the product, are able to convey that story. I'm not taking pot-shots at any commentator in particular -- Michael Cole, for example, actually does this far more than he's given credit for -- but that is why they are there and that is a way that good announcing can raise a match.

I don't think the victories mean nothing, but Axel would have looked far more impressive if he had gone after Triple H when he began to falter, beat him around ringside and looked like a hungry shark that smelled blood. I still think that Axel beating Triple H with the Pedigree would have been the ultimate insult to injury and would have added more reason to want to see an Axel vs. Triple H rematch.

The only problem with Axel beating Cena by countout was that it sends the message that Cena didn't care if he lost to Axel. The roll-up finish would have been perfect. Cena wouldn't leave the ring, but his attention would be turned away from Axel, who would capitalise when he saw the opportunity.

Axel vs. Cena II could have ended almost exactly the same way, except after Ryback puts Cena through the table, Axel just laughs, knowing he has Cena where he wants him. He pulls Cena back into the ring and hits him with a Perfect Plex to get the pin.

None of the wins are "clean," but they show Axel to be opportunistic, vicious and talented. On the flip side of the coin: There is a certain psychology behind Axel just taking victories however he can. It doesn't make him much of a heel, though. He's just doing his job. I think the ball just needs to stop spinning on the type of character Axel is going to be.

And the semantics of the word "clean" frustrate me. Basically, I think if a wrestler wins their match because they have done something proactive -- it is something clean enough. By heel standards, especially. If a heel yells at the audience for too long and then a babyface rolls him up -- is that a clean victory? The heel was distracted and not paying attention. The good guy clearly took advantage of a moment of opportunity. It's just about how you look at it, of course.

I ran into opposition from Tedious when I suggested Axel beat Triple H "clean." What I meant was that Triple H's mounting injuries would get to him, Axel would jump on them, and people would be concerned about Triple H. To me, a heel seeing weakness and jumping on it is "clean" by their standards. The only thing cleaner would be if they had caused the injury themselves. But they can't help that faces are stupid and enter situations they probably shouldn't.

Fair points. Man, I'd love a Basham Brothers return to help put over some newer teams.

On the topic of ring psychology, I think one of the most underrated guys on the roster is Heath Slater. I know that will piss of wwf-fan in a thread where there has been criticisms launched at Randy Orton's ring psychology. But if you actually watch a Heath Slater match and think about why he does what he does, he pretty much nails it every time. It's probably why he's been given the role of enhancing a lot of guys like he is a heel Val Venis.

Heath Slater's fine in the ring...

He's been given the role of enhancing guys because he's not natural on the mic and is terrible at playing a character and can't actually work as anything more than jobber material. Not because he's just so amazing at what he does. lol

To me, a clean win is when you win without anything for your opponent to use as an excuse. Cheating, Distractions, Interference, etc. all make a win unclean.

Heath Slater is perfect at being an annoying heel that everyone wants to see get his ass handed to him. And he sells like a champion.

JTG never won a tag team title.

Well now it all makes sense.

it's like a lot of other things in wrestling, it's one of those moments where you have to suspend your disbelief a little bit for the sake of why he's doing it. When HBK would come off the top with the elbow, do his little fire up dance schtick and go to the corner to start "tuning up the band", the crowd come up. If he goes straight to a nearfall after the elbow, he loses that "momentum" going to his finish/you bring them down. It's like a "oh shit, we know what's coming now" once it's been done, like Hogan hitting the big boot. I personally can't say that I'd even noticed that Sheamus does this, don't watch anywhere near enough of the current product and theoretically/ideally, it'd be the other way round (the boot then the White Curse) but when you've gotten something over in that sense/people are expecting to see something, you don't mess with it :-\

I didn't strictly mean "the direct opposite", just pointing out the gulf between the two. The babyface always teasing/building towards/getting stopped from hitting his finish until he finally gets it is one of the more important parts of structuring a match, especially if it's a "commodity"/people are looking to see that move

The only thing I find awkard about Sheamus' set-up for the Brogue Kick with the White Noise is that the White Noise is such a "heavy" move that his opponent should probably be down and out. As CSL says, it works so don't fuck with it, but it just seems like his opponent should be sort of dead after that. :-\

To me it kind of seems like Taker setting up the Chokeslam with the Tombstone. The Brogue Kick should probably be Sheamus' "out of nowhere" finish, while he sets up for head and neck region for White Noise. When he goes after the back of his opponents, it should be The Irish Curse and the Texas Cloverleaf.

Ha! Look at me. I'm telling a fucking pro like Sheamus how he should wrestle. This is why we are frowned upon. The dude knows what he is doing. I'm not complaining about it (Sheamus is a bigger dude who can wrestle about as well as anybody his size ever has), but I do get how it looks awkward. All the pros do something like that. Eg. Christian using a Spear.

TPWW Tables, Ladders, & Podcast (June 13, 2013) (Special Guest: Poit)
 

I don't love Orton but I do like his position on the card. I think they are going to go for a Triple Threat with him and hell no, after that I hope he puts over Dolph in a world title match.

Yeah, it just *happened* to go out right before we discussed the Kaitlyn/Big E segment.

Tell us how you really feel, Afterlife :lol:

I can't wait for you guys to review the show where Hogan puts on the gear brother and fights Bully Ray

I might not be able to talk if that happens. My face will probably melt away from my body.

If? I hereby present this tweet, hereto "Exhibit A":

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Perfect timing to start serious training again,last time around the block for me so this is gonna be really intense,transformation time. HH</p>&mdash; Hulk Hogan (@HulkHogan) <a href="https://twitter.com/HulkHogan/statuses/344080422562590720">June 10, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" style="display: none;"></iframe>

When the baddest guy on the roster, your biggest heel, leader of the big heel faction, is going to stand there and wait 10 seconds in between Hogan punches...that isn't a good thing. It makes Bully look like shit.

Maybe Hogan will wrestle brooke?

Yes, that was also horrible, stupid, and idiotic.