Crowd Reactions
 

Has anybody else noticed the decline of and beyond lackluster crowd reactions the last several years? I was watching some old DVD's this week and noticed that the crowds back in the day were way louder and more into everything, even some clearly not so great matches. And I'm not talking just about the Attitude era, I'm talking consistently 80's, 90's and early 2000's. I know part of it has to do with the change in the audience's age/target market, but I think that it is also a reflection on how much of a clusterfuck the writing and star development for both WWE and TNA has been the last several years. It seems like there's no direction or consistency. Push a guy, feud or story one week and then bury or almost ignore it the next. Any thoughts?

The being dead during the Bret/Vince thing pretty much convinced me they don't actually respect the product like before. They're too cool to get hype, I guess.

Pretty sure it's got alot to do with soap opera writers instead of people that know how to book wrestling.

That's assuming the average wrestling fan knows the difference.

Or cares.

It doesn't matter if anyone even realizes it's happened. There is a difference, whether the average fan realizes it or not. My proof? Listen to the crowd, and look at the decline of the product.

One of the biggest pops ever came "Canadian Stampede" PPV when The Foundation came out.

So you think the degradation of the product came before the fans became shitty? That's a fine stance, I suppose, 'chicken before the egg' and all that. I just don't agree, which is fine as well.

Totally agree with you on the to each his own thing, but to me. I got sour on the product as a whole after the invasion thing. It was a result of the WWE toning it down due to the fact that they didn't have to try to grab the ratings anymore. Problem is, not only did they fail to grab up WCW's viewers, the decline in the product and the invasion clusterfuck led to them losing alot of their own viewers as well. Like a tobacco company, they looked to replace those viewers wherever they could. Presently this has lead us to the TV-PG era, which is all good, with the exception of the fact that the fans in the stands have no passion for the product anymore. A ten year old that's been watching for five years could never even hope to out pop a 35 year old who's been a fan of x wrestler for longer than the 10 year old has been alive.

I think fans need to be weened back into what makes pro-wrestling great. I remember an initiative for longer matches that they experimented with an HBK/Cena program, which they quickly dropped.

I totally agree. To me, the product and fanbase peaked at Mania X-7. Soon after that, everything went downhill pretty fast. With the exception of the Hogan/Rock match the following year, I don't really remember anything great that stood out. Not that there weren't some good things after that but nothing that really stands out to me.

Take Bret Hart for example, his return and Mania match should have gotten a huge reaction. His return got hardly any reaction compared to past standards, and the Mania match got nothing at all basically. The lack of reaction honestly made me ALMOST wish he hadn't returned. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he was able to return and get some closure with Vince, Shawn and HHH, etc. I man of his legendary status and history should have gotten a much bigger pop, especially since it had been 13 years.

Not to sound like an old man but, "DAMN KIDS!"

I think we know this already, doesn't need to be discussed. Bloody newbie's.

Rather talk to newbie's, than IWC snobs like you. Get off your high horse.

You da man Fig, much respect.

...we are in 2010...everything's "digitalized"...Digital TV's, High Definition, enhanced audio...everything has to be seen and heard more clearly...is it possible this is the reason why the pop's aren't heard as loud on tv as the 80's and 90's?

I was going to say something like this.

Also, if Bret had pulled the stick out of his ass five years ago, he might have gotten the reaction everyone was looking for.

I think it's a shame WWE didn't have any events in Canada while the Hart-McMahon storyline was going on. Would've been interesting to see the pop.

...I guess he still can go with The Hart Dynasty.

Yeah, unfortunately the schedule was locked in way before he jumped on board. Sad.

How does that effect difference of the pops in the arenas versus 10+ years ago?

It affects what you hear on TV. Haven't you ever heard of fan reactions being edited to suit what a promotion wants? How do you think that is done?

...maybe so that the play-by-play dudes can be heard better, they do something so that the crowd won't be as loud.

...also, I dont know...maybe the consensus was that a loud crowd on tv bothered some people so they minimize that...I dont know. I DO know that it probably has something to do with the fact that pops aren't as loud...too bad I know NOTHING about audio and...crap.

I meant live, bro... there's a noticable difference when you're in the arena.

I've been at a live event in the past year and there was no difference from any event I've attended in the past 20. Maybe your local crowd just sucks.

I live in Houston, TX bro, and here there's a difference. The sound of the pops/ boos have gone down just like on TV.

There's also the reality that us fans in 2010 are a little more "business smart" than those of 1980 or 1990. We know more "backstage stuff" than those fans EVER did, we have spoilers, which take away the "surprise" element from the equation, and quite frankly, we have seen ALOT...it takes ALOT to surprise us nowadays, and it takes ALOT to hype us up and get us excited, because something happens, and it's like "Aww, i KNEW that was going to happen...I read it at TPWW", or, "Aww...THAT AGAIN?! That happened 3 years ago".

...it's tough. Alot of things have influence over the "2010 crowd".

I can totally agree with this one. Props dude.

Does anybody else find it odd that we're arguing about how the fans don't care anymore even though they plopped a couple hundred bucks down for tickets to the show?

It's definitely something else. It could be the new audio, but that doesn't explain something like the Royal Rumble this year where the Detroit crowd was super hot and it came off as one of the old school crowds.


I think whoever said something about the IWC might be onto something. We have way more cynics in the audience now. Cheering is usually a mob mentality and if you've got fans who think they're above cheering wildly, then that attitude can spread.

Exactly. People are too afraid to look like marks and just sit there instead of actually enjoying the show.

Not every seats a couple hundred bucks, and the front rows are often rowdy for the camera and the closer interaction with the superstars. But yeah, nobody wants to 'mark out' anymore. Getting hype has a bad connotation. It's not even wrestling fans, it's the whole generation people who like whatever. Everybody's a fucking know it all critic who's entitled to being impressed. Fuck off.

/Rant

I just think that we as fans should just watch the product and become FANS once again...and stop trying to worry about EVERYTHING else. Stop dissecting everything.

I agree with you, but...
 

good luck on that one. People love dissecting everything and I'll never understand why.

Even the biggest marks on the planet can't avoid the cynicism. Some 10 year old goes to youtube to look at videos of his favorite wrestler John Cena and what is he gonna see? 50 comments that Cena's a fag and his fans are faggy little bitches. That's fucked up.

Haters gonna hate.

Everything was better in 1995 when a guy who had a truck horn as theme music and "Diesel" as a name could become World Champion and people wouldn't hate.

I agree with you here, but they should also put out a product that enables me to become a fan again. Back when Austin and Rock were huge I still had the internet and was a part of the "IWC", but the product was good enough that I absolutely loved it and had to tune into Raw and Smackdown each week, and it was a big deal if I missed it. Now there are no stars, stories or feuds that really make me want to tune in and now I just flip back and forth between wrestling and other shows. I don't necessarily dissect everything, but I do compare it to other things I loved in the past and unfortunately, it hasn't been the same in a while.

I don't understand the idea of not getting your money's worth when going to a show. When I went to the Austin-hosted Raw back in March, I marked like a 5 year when Austin, Bret, and Jericho hit the ring. And I booed my lungs out for Cena. I didn't give a shit about about "keeping it cool".

Also, from an entirely different angle, it's hard to cheer and boo for people you just don'r care about. The character development has been atrocious in the WWE since about 2004, the year Eddie and Benoit finally got their due.

It's pretty damn difficult to truly get behind a guy when the minute he starts to garner a reaction, the booking blows their load and pushes straight to the top. Cena is a good example of this. He started getting great reactions with the rapper gimmick. Then they turned him face, had him pandering the crowd more and more, and a year after winning his first singles title, he's given the top belt in the company.

Everything these days seemes so rushed. I like the MITB concept, and it worked the first time when Edge won it. Well, for me atleast. He deserved the win. Guys like Cena, Batista, Swagger, hell, even Punk had no buildup to their win. One minute, they're in the midcard working with midcard guys, then they're all of sudden thrust into the main event and we're expected to all of sudden pop. I don't think it is supposed to work that way.

/rant

Thank you, somebody who gets the importance of character development. It seems to me like they don't develop characters much at all, then they push them into the main event and THEN start to develop the character and expect us to already love/hate them because they're a top guy now. Jericho is a guy I can buy and actually care about as a main eventer because when guys like Austin, HHH, and Rock were main eventing, he was in the mid card having great feuds and plenty of mic/promo time with the Y2J gimmick. Same thing with guys like Rock, Austin, HHH, even Kane got the same kind of development before being pushed as the top guys. Although Kane was never truly given permanent main event status, I don't think.

April 29, 1996, Tokyo Dome: The fans' pops for The Road Warriors (Hawk, Animal, and Power Warrior) and Shinya Hashimoto were really out of this world, especially for Hashimoto, as he would win the IWGP Heavyweight Championship from Nobuhiko Takada.

I have been to a number of live events in numerous cities around the US over the past few years - and the crowds are no where near as loud as they used to be back in the 1990's.

Yea, that was my point exactly. You can't be emotionally invested into a guy when there's nothing to emotionally invest into. Right now, I am hoping to God that they don't blow their load with Orton. He is, by and far, their most over face. They need to have his rise back to the top be a slow and steady journey. But, knowing the booking team, they will put the strap on Orton before the summer.

Every single RAW from 98-02 was as loud as the once or twice a year "big moments" we get these days

Fuck... Too Cool's dancing was getting bigger pops than 95% of anything today. It's definitely true.

This makes me :(

It's also hard to be emotionally invested and care about stuff when they constantly throw into your face that matches and angles don't matter, and that we are in fact just watching Jerry Springer.

Me too man, me too. It's sad but true that Too Cool's dancing was getting bigger pops than most of what happens now.

On a different note, some folks claim it's some new digital audio technology affecting the crowd levels. Well I can tell you as a professional audio engineer, who's worked in live broadcast and studio/post production fields, that's not the case. The digital audio format has been the standard in live broadcast long before the crowd levels began changing. I don't know specific details about what type of setup WWE is running audio wise, but I know and have enough experience with HD and digital audio formats to know that no amount of audio compression/technology would affect the crowd levels that much but not affect the announcer levels, especially in a live setting. It's too hard to predict the change in levels of the crowd noise to alter it that drastically in a live setting. That's not to say that they can't and don't alter crowd levels in post on pre-taped shows and DVD releases, but they can't alter it that drastically due to DVD format and broadcast standards.

Fewer people watching+quieter crowds+less popular angles=Occam's Razor, motherfucker.

It may not be literally true that they know it's a "soap opera" writer, but they clearly can tell the difference in the product.

Well, it's that, or the less likely alternative that people are buying more expensive tickets just so they can show up and demonstrate how "cool" they are by not responding....

:lol: Perfect way to sum up my point, KK.

If anything, "Enhanced audio" allows you to have a louder crowd and still keep the experience of the announcer/speaker/musician intact, especially with discrete HD audio. You get to five channels and you've got yourself a good way to mix sound in an enveloping fashion, you're enhancing the experience.

Ignoring the actual live crowds, there is little reason to think audio specifications would either mandate or make desirable the reduction of crowds, a key element of a live experience, to make the commentary more audible or to stop people from being "annoyed."

The 90s were a hot era. Now, less so. I suppose you could claim a poor business decision to alter the audio mix, but it's been fairly consistent over the years, and you'd still have to ignore the live crowds, which are generally accepted to be quieter (I don't care what Destor, Tedious, or the rest o the "It's still real to me, dammit!" Club say).

People buy iPad to show how cool they are, don't forget what country you're in.

Yes, but don't forget to make your analogies apt.

The iPad, part of the Apple trend, is actually considered a popular and desirable product. What you're comparing it to is a product that is neither popular (in a mainstream sense) nor desirable.

Further, you're comparing people buying something as a status symbol to people effectively buying something not only "ironically," but so as to deliberately not use it.

And let's not forget another point: It's currently "cool to hate" Apple, too. If the two were remotely comparable, the iPad would be suffering in a similar fashion WWE is.

Heh, could have used this action when I myself was commenting on WWE's declining product years ago - only in this case I'm commenting on the lame-ass fans who wouldn't know quality if WWE did a Attitude Era style show one night. Crowd would still be dead, TPWW would flip, though.

Americans suck, get over it.

Yeah, the American Pro Wrestling Fans get soap opera bullshit (WWE and TNA), while places like Canada, Mexico, Europe, and Japan has superior pro wrestling; they treat it more like a sport, and that I like.

Wouldn't say it's superior, as the styles are too different to compare. WWE/TNA use the soap opera style because that's what the majority of their audience wants. You'd be lucky to fill a bingo hall if you ran puro style shows here.

Actually I wish it was more like soap operas now. Right now it seems to be a sketch comedy tour with the occasional 'serious' story. At least in '01 they had legit funny comedy sketches and entertainment angles (Kurt Angle's silliness, the music act). Now it's just 'forced'. Saying you're mainstream doesn't make you mainstream, and guest hosts feel awkward and out of place.

And the foreign promotions have story lines, too. Know what else they have? Rowdy fans still (except Japan who interact with matches differently, but they're in too it).

They have storylines in Japan, but they aren't as dramatic. And they heel/face aspect isn't as black and white as it is in america. NJPW, Zero-1, and Noah are all booked in an almost faux-MMA style.

All Japan is the closest thing to WWE's style, the other japanese soap opera style promotions taking the drama and silliness to ridiculous new levels.

The Attitude Era felt like you were watching a cricket match in the Sub-Continent but now it feels like England "bah!" :-\

Guru Dave, ladies and gentlemen.

You guys are forgetting a pretty big thing.

The target audience in the Attitude Era was males, ages 18-34.

The target audience now is children, ages 0-5.

What will a male aged 18-34 do at a show that a child, aged 0-5 won't do at a show? GET FUCKING DRUNK. When you're drunk, you're louder and your inhibitions go away. You'd go NUTS at a wrestling show. Even if you weren't drunk at an Attitude Era show, there where enough people around you who were and you didn't feel weird for going ballistic.

Live shows these days are totally different. I never used to see so many kids back in the day. Kids like to cheer, but some kids are still really timid, and they're not as naturally loud as a drunk adult. Also, who do you think brought the kids to the show? Their parents who PROBABLY don't even give a fuck about wrestling, but they're trying to make their kids happy. They have no reason to get loud.

Now a guy like me will go to a show today. I'll still get drunk and I'll WANT to go ballistic, but there will be a ton of kids around me so I hold myself back a little bit as to not offend their parents.

Just something else to think about.

You know, I never really thought of it before, but I think that's the same reason that the Straight Edge Society is getting huge pops. They're speaking directly to the drunk people and challenging them. Of course they're gonna get loud.

All the more reason this PG shit needs to end soon I think. Unfortunately, it's not likely going to happen any time soon anyway. I was actually hoping TNA might hurry the end of the PG era, but it looks like that's not going to happen if the recent TNA ratings are any indication.

Good post but for some reason this made me :lol:

That seems to be it..... Attitude Era had better storylines/wrestlers + drunk fans = louder crowds

I'm not the one making up excuses for while a flailing product is doing poorly. I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who needs to get over it.

As for your claim, Austin's return was a peak in ratings in the middle of poor ratings, and a hotter crowd. I mean, your argument is literally and demonstrably wrong. introducing just one element of the Attitude Era, one person people gave a shit about, was enough to get a bigger response.

Strike three, Kal.

It's almost like the thesis that higher "quality" = better crowd reactions holds up to scrutiny.

While the crowds weren't as bad as they are now, 2007 was still miles behind the 90s/early 00s...... and remember when Austin first returned in early 2007? That crowd was REALLY HOT.

My thesis?

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This is 2007. Although this was in Chicago

No, mine. You're making excuses for why the crowd is no longer hot for people that haven't been built for them to care about in angles that they don't care about.

I'm explaining that there's a correlation between crowd reaction and quality of show. You're making a "It's cool to hate" argument.

If that was your thesis, you said the exact opposite.

Sorry.

It's okay. It's not surprising you wouldn't understand your own argument. :)

I wasn't sorry. You know this, right? I was quite malevolent in the matter.

This shit is funny. So totally my favorite thread right now. Either the crowd is going dead, or some people are going deaf. That's all there is to it.

Yes, Noid, those of us without autism can grasp this sort of thing. But while we're clarifying, you know "It's okay" wasn't literal, right?

...Right?

Yeah, that part was a joke.

Noid's over there.

Is it just me or does the WWE spend less time in the major smark cities than they used to. Now they focus on smaller cities and towns where the crowds are much quieter. This with the combination of the younger audiences, and more characters that come out of nowhere to be forced down everyones throat.

And less booze.

i dunno who this tj midnight420 guys is but he`s massively right.

What's up big dog? :wave:

After the reactions The Rock got tonight, there can be no doubt that the dead crowds in recent years has NOTHING to do with HD/digital audio and everything to do with the talent and writing, and a little of the PG restrictions.

Big, Cena and Vickie got huge reactions tonight too.

Matter of Fact, VICKIE got huge heat.. like the most I've seen out of a heel since McMahon from the 90s.

Cena vs Rock could lead to a huge rating increase and a crowd interest..

The hype could be like Austin vs Rock back in the day, hopefully turning Cena heel like it turned Rock heel and pitted Austin as the face.

It seems like Vickie has consistently got really good heat for the last couple of years. I think it's just the fact that she is so DAMN annoying, especially her voice.

Yeah, but tonight, I really was like, wow, it's really over. She's going to put Teddy Long over huge once he takes her out on Smackdown.

I really wish Smackdown would go live so it'd seem more fresh.