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It's Been Three Years
Do you appreciate what he accomplished in Sports Entertainment, or do you think his final actions overshadow it all? Do you think its fair to hold him 100 percent responsible for the tragedy, even though the doctors proved he had brain damage? Do you consider Chris Benoit a cold-blooded murder or someone who did something very evil because of drugs, mental illness, or a brain injury? Should he rest in peace or rot in hell? Discuss...
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Without the autoplay, that has no effect.
Benoit is and always will be one of my favourite, I even have his Hard Knocks video on my hard disk. |
I wouldn't say he's a cold blooded murderer, but more of a Crippler or a Rabid Wolverine.
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How many Chris Benoits does it take to ruin a perfectly good Bowflex?
One. |
Yea 3 years should be plenty of time to forgive child murder
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Yep he managed to get Danielsson fired from beyond the grave that's his greatest feat ever.
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I never fucking said that the passage of three years, or of any amount of time, should necessarily mean it's time for us to "forgive" him.
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The problem I have with it all is that the people who take the defensive side would never do that for someone else. If a 30-something man who was a great accountant and had great respect in his field went off the deep end and murdered his wife and child, they wouldn't step up and defend him. They'd probably write him off as a piece of trash just the same. It's just because he was a great wrestler and some fans don't want to let that go.
Great matches apparently mean a lot to some people. Personally, I can't get past it and I don't care if that requires me to disregard his legacy. The horror and negativity he brought upon wrestling and the people who knew him far outweighs what he brought to the table anyways. |
I liked Benoit. Never really LOVED him. I feel sorry for him and pity his family for he did to them. I don't have anything else to say on the matter.
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I don't think I've heard of this man. Was he a good wrestler?
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We'll never know why Chris Benoit did what he did. Whether the brain damage or the drugs was what made him do it, yet enabled him to seemingly plan the whole thing over a course of a few days what with the text messages, the dogs in the garage and the bibles etc.
If I want to watch a Benoit match, I can watch it on YouTube, I don't need the WWE to acknowledge his existence. As a company, this is probably the right call due to the nature of his and various other wrestling deaths. Chris Benoit the character entertained a lot of people for a lot of years. I don't really view the person I see in a video as the actual man. But I can understand if people don't have the same perspective. |
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I do think there is discussion to be had about where he was mentally over that weekend, but at the same time I think there's a ridiculous amount of justification and denial from fans.
I don't deny concussions and drug use may have contributed to his actions, but how much does that vindicate him? It's also not as though he was droning around slobbering on himself. He was making conscious decisions and plans regarding the situation over the course of several days. It's documented that he felt some semblance of realization of what he had done, and chose to continue going further to avoid facing the consequences. It didn't all happen in the heat of the moment. It was certainly cowardly. It's very disturbing. |
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I don't think that would have happened. Getting that ruling is incredibly difficult in the real life legal system. He would have never have gotten it considering he had committed the murders on seperate days, lied to his place of employment to explain his whereabouts, and prepared the house for the authorities to arrive.
There's no way he'd have held up as a man who wasn't in control of his actions. Especially considering the nature of his crimes, which a jury would be extremely unlikely to overlook. |
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There was also a big gap between Nancy and Daniel's deaths. He sedated his son so he would not be aware. He left bibles out. He planned and successfully hung himself. Doesn't strike me as someone incapable of judgement. |
i still watch his matches. i'm also one of those conspiracy theorists about this, so i've got my own thoughts...
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It's been 18 years.
"Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers (February 20, 1921 - June 26, 1992) |
Whether or not a man in another line of work would have such brain damage is irrelevant to what I'm saying.
The point still remains that people are quick to defend him based on their opinion of him as a performer, and would not offer the same support to others guilty of the same crimes. As for the injuries, they are the unfortunate result of an industry that was irresponsible and dangerous. This is not exclusive to wrestling, however. Concussion related illness runs rampant in professional sports as well. There are other ways to recieve brain damage. The point still remains that people aren't calling in these factors to clear the name of random murderers. I'm sure someone killed their wife and kid today. I bet they even had a history of brain damage too. If they wrestled more 5 star matches, would they be more deserving of understanding? |
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If you drink and you drive, you're still responsible for your state if you run someone over. To some similar extent, one has to hold benoit to some fault for his own condition. However, as the effects of drinking and driving are more immediately obvious than those of concussions on killing your family, I have trouble treating him like a murderer.
Benoit's end will probably always overshadow him. Even if you think he was ill, and I do, it doesn't wipe the slate on killing your wife and child. I actually think it's a bit more of a mark on his career that it was his career that left him with a skull full of swiss cheese and a murder-murder suicide to his name. |
One school of thought is that, brain damaged or not, there had to be something dark inside of him for him to take it to that level. This wasn't just a quick, heat- of-the-moment thing. He took his time and knew exactly what he was doing.
On the other hand, some would say it's CLEAR that he was not born a murderous bastard. His mind was all fucked up on the drugs he was on, the concussions he had, and the alleged marital problems he and his wife had. He placed a Bible next to them. I'm quite sure that was after he killed them. Why? Remorse, no? Isn't that also why he killed himself? |
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It's difficult to sort out the real reasons behind what happened on those days, and where things seperate. I will probably bow out of this conversation now, because there's not really much more I can offer other than descending into a pissing contest. |
i think he decided to off himself then killed his family cause they tried to stop him, he thought the bibles he placed around made it ok though, cuz it is religion or something
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Since mental illness doesn't stop one from being able to selectively rationalise, that might be important. Being able to judge right from wrong is not the same as being able to carry out a thought process like "weights are heavy. I can use heavy weights to kill myself." The level of "planning" involved here is kind of exaggerated by calling it planning. I'm not saying I'm any less of a layman than you, but you're certainly demonstrating prejudice in your presentation of the facts and applying it to come to a very prejudicial end. |
I just listened to a Podcast today and this came up. They said that there was word that Benoit was upset that Daniel had his condition and that's why he decided to kill him.
Just thought I'd throw that out there. |
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The judgement of right and wrong may have contributed to the desire to place bibles, lie to his place of work, and kill himself though.
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Clearly, he knew right enough from wrong to want to end his son's life in such a way that would cause him the least pain. Put his dogs in a safe place and ask his friends to come and get them. In my lowly opinion, I'd say a nutjob would simply of taken a shotgun to them both then himself. If you ask me, Benoit, in a rage caused by drugs, brain damage and marital problems killed his wife in a violent manner. Then, racked by guilt and the thought of a disabled son growing upw ithout a mother and father ended his life as mentioned above. He then ended his own life as planned. As much as I want to think that Benoit was not in control, I think he was to an extent - whether that makes him evil is up to other people to decide. |
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No-one has come up with any definitive answer in 3 years on the subject. I doubt anyone here will get any closer. |
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Further, sedating his son wasn't necessarily a humane gesture. You have to selectively interpret the evidence to get there. You're working backwards from morality and shoehorning it in to demonstrate it was there in the first place. |
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i.e just because we don't have conclusive proof does not mean "all thoeries are equally true."
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No matter what he "accomplished" in wrestling, no matter how respected he was for his ability, I think that a lot of wrestling fans will always remember Benoit as a cold-blooded killer who strangled his wife and suffocated his mentally retarded son. For many fans, even the ones who consider themselves "smart," it doesn't matter how many amazing matches he put on, or how amazing that moment was at Wrestlemania XX, it will always, I repeat, ALWAYS be overshadowed by the fact that he killed his wife and son. I just don't know if people who feel that are looking objectively at the whole situation. To be honest, it's hard for me to view him as inherently and thoroughly evil.
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At the same time, they may just indicate self preservation. It's hard to know what his full motives behind these things were. That poses the larger question of morality and consequences. Was he remorseful, or was he just worried about the aftermath? This question can be raised in any crime. Do people choose to do it in spite of morality, or is punishment the only concern? Was he a sociopath to begin with? I don't think assuming he knew the difference between right and wrong given the circumstances is much different from doing the same in nearly any murder case. |
I haven't watched a Benoit match (well except multi-man matches he was in) since his death. He's a very good wrestler and had a great career, so I do respect what he did in the ring but the whole tragedy thing killed Chris Benoit for me. I don't even have the slightest desire to watch the WM 20 triple threat.
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He's my favourite wrestler of all time, and I miss him, but sadly his legacy will forever be tarnished by how it ended.
Oddly enough I was watching some old Benoit matches today on various DVDs, I had no idea it was the anniversary. In particular, his WM23 match with MVP and No Mercy tag match with Angle VS Rey Mysterio and Edge were amazing. |
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I will watch tag team or multiple man matches he's a part of if they come up I guess. I don't really have a policy. It just puts a damper on the whole thing. Matches where he isn't the focus are obviously less dampered. I agree 100% that the whole ordeal just kills it for me. |
So then, I guess it's split. Some say it was so deliberate and calculated that he was clearly in control of his actions. Others say it was the mix of drugs, concussions, dementia, and whatever else. Of course, wouldn't he have had to be some kind of "crazy" to kill his wife, his son and himself for no apparent reason? Do you guys and gals think he should be inducted into the HOF?
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Absolutely not.
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wouldn't be surprised if some indy group puts him in one with an asterisk next to his name or something, but will never happen in the WWE hof
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I think open discussion about the crimes themselves and where his mental state is warranted, but I am pretty firm in my belief that he should in no way be honored. That's what the HOF is after all.
Sure, there are some dishonorable people in there, but to knowingly honor a man who killed his son is way out of line. That's why I'm sure it will never happen. Respect is a part of legacy |
Yeah, I guess you guys are right. But is it time to stop ignoring his accomplishments as a performer as a way of punishing him for the monstrous acts he committed in his final moments? I say yes. I honestly feel that people need to learn to separate the man from the performer. Condemn his final acts, not everything he ever did in life prior to them, a distinction that might not be easy to make. He was one of the greatest in-ring wrestlers ever. That's something that can't be taken away from him. Right? I don't think one act can (or should) completely ruin a lifetime of entertaining the fans. Taint it, maybe, but not erase it completely.
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I don't think it's unfair to take his actions into account when considering his legacy on just wrestling. It was a major industry event.
I also don't think it's unfair to let that put a damper on his career, but that's me. Wrestling blurs the lines between fiction and reality anyways, and it's performers are not just characters but also personas. Chris Benoit is Chris Benoit and whatever his legacy is as a result of this is the way it is. I don't think it's a tragedy that his skills are overshdadowed. I think the rest of it is a tragedy. |
What? How does that not ruin his legacy? He killed his family. That is a pretty fucking big no-no.
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As an ordained minister, I have religion to turn to. I hid it so Athiests and people who don't want to hear religious rambling don't have to see it.
SPOILER: show |
My personal opinion is he was a great wrestler who was very skilled and had good matches. I won't go as far as the WWE has done and just completely ignore him or his matches (even though WWE had a good reason why they did).
No way he would ever be considered for the HoF since he basically "ruined" his image and career with the murders and WWE wouldn't want to bring any trouble by associating themselves with him as a wrestler. As a person, I think it was horrible what he did to his family and defiantly lost a lot of respect for him as a result. The murders make his suicide very tough to accept as tragic since he no longer is seen as a "selfish" or a situation that could have been avoided like most people debate on suicides but as a horrible person who decided to kill others before taking the "coward's" way out. |
FYI, WWE has re-added Benoit to title histories and even the Mania 20 page
http://www.wwe.com/shows/wrestlemani...m20/mainevent/ |
IMO Benoit deserves nothing more than to rot in hell for his actions whether or not the drugs or brain damage had anything to do with it is of no importance to me I will always see him as a killer and as far as I'm concerned his time in WWE and the wrestling business as a whole should be burried and forgotten and to all those who disagree with me I see where your comming from I really do and I'm all for you having your opinions but mine will always be that he is a monster
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Its been 2 years since Cody Rhodes beat himself for the Tag Team Titles at Night of Champions.
Discuss this amazing feat..or not. |
Feel how you want to feel about it, I'll feel how I want to feel about it. It's a very divisive and emotional issue when you consider the popularity of Chris Benoit and the horrendus actions he performed. Whether you thought he did it cold and calculating or he was the victim of his own deteriorating mental facilities of the varying shades of gray in between. There are two things that are true...
Chris Benoit was a fantastic wrestler. Chris Benoit murdered his wife and young son. Leave it up to yourself to determine if one defeats the other or if you can seperate one from the other. |
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He was my favorite. I can't see a picture of him, let alone a match, without thinking about what he did. I'm ashamed to say he was my favorite at one point.
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Even though murder is morally impermissible and the final actions of Chris Benoit were extremely unfortunate, I also think too many people in our society are too quick to cast stones. We all agree murder is wrong, but how many of you people here support capital punishment?? Some of you think Benoit deserves to "rot in hell" for his actions, but would you say that about your own son/brother/father if he murdered someone?? Understandably, no. It's very easy to pass judgment on people, and I suppose that's human nature, but maybe we ought to think twice about doing so.
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I haven't read this whole thread, but I still have the same feelings as I did 3 years ago. I still am a Chris Benoit fan inside the sqaure circle. I still watch his matches, I still watch his DVD. I will say it's very weird watching WCW in 1995 though when he's with Nancy.
But what Chris Benoit did was horrendous and he's a piece of shit for doing that. He took his kids own life. he'll never get any sympathy from me because of the whole brain damage thing. |
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His accomplishments don't change that fact that he was the Unabomber. Just because Benoit did great things in his life, does not change the fact that what he did was reprehensible. It is interesting that people put so much energy trying to defend his legacy. You could make the same case for many murders/monsters who have come and gone throughout history that although they did horrible things, they also contributed to society at some point in their lives. I find it extremely hard to praise a man, who although entertained me, murdered his family in such a horrific fashion. |
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SPOILER: show |
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The one thing that still gets me is: there are people out there that say they can appreciate John Cena the person, but detest John Cena the character. Shouldn't the exact opposite be equally applicable to Chris Benoit - appreciate the charcter and detest the person?
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I was a big fan of Benoit. I literally was stood up screaming for HHH to tap at WM20 and was overjoyed when he did and Benoit became champion. Now I cannot watch - or even think of - that moment without thinking of his last actions.
I won't debate the right and wrong of it, a lot of stuff is still unknown and will remain that way. But I will say, that for me personally, his legacy/accomplishments are ruined and he should never be inducted to the HoF. I do think that WWE go to needless lengths to "erase his existence" though. |
I heard TNA is pairing up Homicide and Suicide, and calling it Chris Benoit.
Jokes aside, Benoit was a great technicle wrestler, and here's a good video to watch if you were a fan. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VtTclBAYyPE&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VtTclBAYyPE&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> |
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I initially thought the whole thing was a work, ashamed to say.
Benoit is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, I can't get past it. If Kurt Angle murdered his ex-wife and Jeff Jarrett and then himself in a fit of jealous rage tomorrow, he would still be my favorite wrestler ever. Can't help it. If your moral compass dictates that you can't separate an on-air character from the actor who plays him-and that's essentially what is going on here-then that is your call. Enjoy that. |
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Not gonna lie I actually laiughed at that joke.
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Whilst wrestlers are actors essentially a lot of them play extensions of themselves. So, whilst we don't condemn them for the things they may do on screen (where they are playing the character) we can (and will) condemn the actions of the real person.
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Another thing to consider is that time WILL eventually heal all wounds. It took Michael Jackson more than 10 years for most people to forget the child molestation accusations. When he died he was definitely remembered more for his positive attributes than his negative ones.
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Little different though I think.
Let's not forget MJ was acquitted and then died 10 years later having been tainted by the controvesy. Even in death it was mentioned. We never knew for a fact that he did it. With Benoit he never gave us a period of adjustment (for lack of better term) he carried out these atrocities and then offed himself. |
Fair. But when we're in our 80s and drooling on ourselves, will we more likely remember that we enjoyed watching Benoit perform, or that he killed his wife and son and then himself?
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1) I doubt I'll make it in to my 80s unless there are improvements in healthcare.
2) If I did make it to my 80s I think I'd probably have a hard time remembering who Benoit was fullstop. |
Felt I should mention that I thought of the Benoit incident when news broke about the shootings in Cumbria earlier this month.
For those not in the know, a taxi driver basically drove around the vacinity of his home town shooting at people. He killed 12 (including his brother, the family solicitor and a fellow taxi driver before killing 9 others at "random") and injured 11 before killing himself. Nobody really knows why he did it. Everyone is left to speculate. |
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OK, now replace "self-inflicted, embarrassing death" with "murdered his wife and kid and then commited suicide".
I dunno, I was just asking. Like I said, for me it does taint every match he's ever been in. |
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What the hell you talking about? I don't think you understand.
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