Big stars that didn't draw
 

Name some big, popular stars that never really drew.

I've always heard Sting's name tossed around in this conversation, as well as Steamboat. Agree/Disagree with these?

Jeff Jarrett
Arn Anderson
Rick Rude
Brian Pillman
Taz
Scott Steiner
Vince Russo

Triple H, he always feuded with the wrestler that drew, don't be fooled.

Sting and Steamboat both drew. Obviously Sting in 96/ 97 ends that argument.

Now you can argue that Flair was on the opposite side of the ring when both of them were on top in 89/90. But Still, both were draws as babyfaces.

To answer the question, Kevin Nash was a big failure in 95, but the business was in the shits, so it wasn't really his faut. Same could be said for HBK.

Barry Windham wasn't really a great World Champion in 91

Luger was a big draw in WCW, but he never really had it in WWF.

Big Show never really made an impact in his early WWF run. He's more of an attraction then a draw.

Vader is another one that was a draw in early 90's WCW, but not so good in WWF.

RVD. I am pretty sure once he got to WWE never drew, but was just popular with the IWC.

rey mysterio
owen hart
eddie guerrero
sid
the million dollar man ted dibiase

so far, you got Vince Russo and Jeff Jarrett right. Rey is pretty much the biggest money making crusier of all-time

That is interesting thought. When you look back he was always with the top talent, but I feel like his buy-rates are pretty high. He is a good wrestler and can compete with the best of them. All I know is if it were up to James Steele and me, Triple H would always Main Event. He sells for us.

He did go to TNA to draw, but really didn't

Are you aware that that's not saying much? But that is false, it would actually be Chris Jericho.

Oh another thing, your saying Owen Hart & Sid drew???? There's more on the list, but we'll start with these two.

Aside from Stone Cold and maybe The Rock, RVD was the most popular wrestler during the InVasion. Pretty sure those arenas weren't full of the IWC.

Sometimes I wonder if Bret Hart was that big of a draw? I mean with the exception of Stone Cold feud and HBK, the guy barely seems memorable. His world title runs are forgettable, he known more for getting screwed and his feud with Austin than anything else. When he was World Champ his main event was hardly ever the best part of the card, someone else usually stole the show....am I wrong here?

I am pretty sure they were filled because of Stone Cold & The Rock.

yea, not going to get into an argument on who was more popular. I don't consider Jericho a crusier/luchador/whatever. just a dumb comment to say Rey is/was not a draw. really can't take you seriously when you mentioned Anderson, Pillman, Steiner and Rude. don't know if you saw how over 3/4 of those names were in Crockett/early WCW

I wasn't making a case for RVD as a draw in WWE, I was just saying that it wasn't just the IWC that loved the guy.

True, but when he was the "Main Man" he really didn't draw that well. Then when he went to TNA, he really did not do anything to help TNA.

Over and drawing are two different things. That is where the mix up is happening. You HONESTLY believe that people PAID money to see Anderson, or did they pay money to see The Horsemen? Pillman, no one paid to see the guy, great all around wrestler, one of my favs, but no one was going to the arena for him, sorry, hard to believe. Steiner? Were they paying to see them, or were they spending their hard earn money to truly see The Road Warriors? Flair? Sting? Yeah right if you believe that, then it is truly hard to take you serious.

Then by your own definition, Rey Mysterio is absolutely a draw.

don't really think Vince would be stupid enough to book Sid in main event programs 3 times if the first didn't work. Sid made money.

I'll give you Owen because he only had really one good main event program

Ok, I believe that whole thread is not being understood, no one is saying someone is popular or not, but did they sell out arenas? Create bigger pay days for the boys?

Hell yeah RVD was popular, but did the 12,000 plus people night in and night out come out to see him, or was he just a bonus?

Sid main evented WM WITH HULK MUTHERFUCKIN' HOGAN, how is that one not obvious? Then he main evented 13 with the Undertaker, c'mon man, seriously. Then his other programs were with Shawn Michaels, do not be fooled, he was always paired to "heel" down the big drawers, sort of like they use Mark Henry, hell even Big Show....

there's maybe 10 guys that are on the "selling out arenas" platform. lets just name them and call it a thread if we are using that as the standard for being a draw

I always thought he was a bonus.

Bret Hart absolutely was a draw especially outside of the US. In fact Bret Hart is one of the biggest international draws of all time

True.

Your right! I did completely forget about his International Fame, at his peak he was like top 3 for most popular people in Canada. Good catch.

Is Europe in Canada?

Bret Hart, although I'm sure half the forum will get their panties in a knot defended this although it's true.

You mean because it isn't?

His international fame is proof positive that he was a draw

David Arquette in terms of what WCW or Russo had hoped he could draw in money, outside exposure, and viewers away from WWF but none of that occurred. Then again a lot of late-WCW champions could fall under the same category.

I think Eddie Guerrero didn't draw well as a champion considering how he felt his first reign was a failure for making money although Vince never blamed or punished him and the quality of the feuds were a bit lackluster (ex. vs JBL).

RVD is another but he barely had the chance due to his stupidity and also WWE not capitalizing when he was hot during the Invasion feud.

I think that the majority of big stars did not draw.

I mean... I can only think of Jerry Lawler. I know that he has been known to be an "artist".

JBL and to a lesser extent Booker T.

:rofl: I see what you did there

Jeff Jarrett, JBL & Booker T are the only ones to come to mind.....

Lash LeRoux drew as well, but I wouldn't classify him as a "big star".

Jeff Hardy draws on himself.

Ron Simmons as WCW World Champion didn't draw as much, so WCW booked him in matches before the main event, which usually featured Sting.

Booker T and Scott Steiner as World Champions in WCW were cases of too little, too late.

Vampiro didn't do well in WCW, because he didn't really push himself, despite help from Sting.

Mike Awesome in WCW was a clusterfuck, because they gave him gimmick after gimmick.

not to get any panties in a knot but Bret was an international draw. He drew the foreign markets better than Hogan.

Shawn Michaels didn't draw anywhere as much as Hart did during his run. Now panties should be getting bunched up.

I think once Bret went to WCW, his drawing power went down the gutter because he was dreadfully misused from the beginning. Maybe his first outing with Flair was a good idea, but even that should have been built up to at least Super Brawl rather than just using a month to do it.

So are we talking about stars that can't draw even if the booking was good? Because we all know bad booking helps to create the no draw.

Saying Bret or Shawn weren't draws has always been laughable to me.

Sure, the company wasn't do as well during those years for a number of reasons, but neither of them were the problem. They were the solution, actually.
The company was floundering and on the brink of going under due to a lot of factors, but they still were doing business and selling tickets to stay afloat.
And how do you think they were doing that?
Do you think people were paying to see Savio Vega and Max Moon?

Bret and Shawn were drawing those shows and PPVs. They were the ONLY draws. Along with Undertaker.
Then Austin came along and the company went in new directions.
For that reason alone, they deserve credit.

Plus, you have a political tug-of-war over the WCW World Heavyweight title at that time, which caused Bret to go after the secondary titles like the WCW United States Heavyweight title and the WCW World Television title.

And at that time, the aspect over in WCW, as Road Warrior Animal had said, if you're not a friend of the boss (Eric Jerkoff), you're not going to last long there.

I guess it also depends on how long the wrestler was around. Take Stone cold or the Rock vs Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart. Rock may have been white hot but for a far shorter period.

Also, Ric flair saying "Bret didn't draw a dime." It just shows how senile Flair is. People weren't going to WCW shows to see Flair. They were there for the nWo.

From 1996 onwards, yes, but what about the 80s and first half of the 90s? Flair was WCW.

The WWE is such a different business nowadays and over the past decade than wrestling always used to be.

As CSL said, it's a time where the champion isn't really carrying the company on their back anymore. There are 2 champions, 2 brands, and a huge roster that is full of stars.
A guy like Cena and Undertaker remains just as much of a draw and important regardless of the belt, and guys like RVD and The Miz are hard to judge as "drawing champions."
Obviously Cena and Orton are still the top dogs on Raw, regardless of who champion is.
WWE has made that motto evident.

I think a big part of how much of a draw you are in this day and age is merchandise sales.
People are coming to the arena to see WWE as a product, and all of their favorites. But who is moving merchandise and pulling a lot of weight in that collective cast of characters?

Chris Benoit
Eddie Guerrero
Diesel
Yokozuna
Jeff Jarrett
Jeff Hardy
RVD
Taz

http://www.mmaconvert.com/wp-content...y_lashley3.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03xiugLMTk

I actually enjoyed Lashley during his push and was one of the few. I like how he went up against the big boys like Cena, Batista, Big Show and Umaga and not just mid-carders, heels and smaller guys.

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Lashley didn't do anything terribly (besides speak), but I just couldn't get into his matches...like, at ALL. I dunno.

Add Viscera and Mark Henry to that list. It seems he was given a Goldberg push with opponents like that. I think for a lot of people it didn't work with them and I can see that as he doesn't have the intensity of Goldberg or someone like Heyman to be his voice. I hated that he was pushed like a huge star and went up against all these odds only to be defeated by Cena.

If you you think Flair didnt draw post 96 you are an idiot. Once the NWO started going down the shitter, everyone wanted to see Flair. How many shows had the crowd chanting we want flair? He was the sole real big draw left in 1998 and 1999 once thye killed Goldberg.

Flair is still a draw today. A Legend like that puts butts in seats. If flair was coming back to the WWE at WM, you know most of you would buy it.

u önly like flair cuz he is a trannie:he has tits and a cock. Seriously though, nobody would buy wm to see flair.

For five minutes I was excited because I thought Bobby Lashley was the second coming of Brock Lesner then he opened his mouth to speak and I knew I was right.

BTW I wouldnt consider Jeff Jarrett a big star (seems to be a popular topic lately) in any sense of the word. He always came off to me as a poor mans Triple H, I mean during his 99-2000 heel run T

For five minutes I was excited because I thought Bobby Lashley was the second coming of Brock Lesner then he opened his mouth to speak and I knew I was right.

BTW I wouldnt consider Jeff Jarrett a big star (seems to be a popular topic lately) in any sense of the word. He always came off to me as a poor mans Triple H.I mean during his 99-2000 heel run Triple H made me want to pay to see him get his ass kicked whereas Jarrett was concerned I couldn't have cared less.

Sid Vicious
The Ultimate Warrior
Scott Hall
Jeff Jarrett
Booker T

You could never say Rey wasn't a draw if you've ever been to a WWE event and been surprised by the sheer number of kids wearing Rey Mysterio shit.

Scott Hall?

Dude, Razor Ramon was HOT back in the day...back then, you could argue that the Intercontinental Title was hotter then the WWF Belt, with better feuds and matches, and he won it 4 times, PLUS, he was one of the most popular wrestlers WWF had.

this is the exact same thing that can be said for Daniel Bryan...

Ive read alot of interviews with guys who said Triple H was a popular champion backstage because the house shows payoffs were always higher since he worked them.

AJ Styles, being TNA's biggest (homegrown) star for 9 yrs and the company hasnt changed one bit.

Triple H was a great champion because people wanted to see him foiled, and he always wrestled good matches.
The fans knew this. Why else do you think they gave him the ovation that they did upon his return in 2002?

People might not have been coming to see him like they did The Rock and Austin, but they were coming to see those guys get their hands on him.
He had tremendous heat, and was able to provide matches worthy of their money.

That's a draw. That's always been the business.

He was a shaky champion at first, no doubt. He floundered, but by the end of that year he was able to establish his heel character and by the time his feud with Foley and The Rock were underway, it was off to the races.
It just took a few months to get going, but it was an important transition in the company with Taker and Austin out for a year.

That's why I get a little frustrated when the WWE doesn't extend other first time champions that same confidence. Even though HHH was shaky, he was the focus of the main event and the top guy. They gave him time to right the ship.

With others, they often give up on them before granting them real time, and they never even place them at the top of the pile to begin with.
They give them the belt, but then continue to book them in the upper-midcard while the top dogs stay in the actual main event. What's the point?

However, in 1991 when Jim Herd fired Flair and Flair went to the WWF, Sting became THE man in WCW. And since Flair returned to WCW in February 1993 at SuperBrawl III, WCW fans were cheering for Sting a tad bit more than for Flair.

I'm pretty sure Sting himself will tell you that Ric Flair was key to getting him over in the first place

There are a lot of wrestlers that have been mentioned that were never truly given the ball. If they were never in a position to draw money (being the main focus of television and PPV for a decent stretch of time), then how can we say whether or not they can?

That's like David Hasslehoff saying he's big in Germany. If it doesn't happen in the U.S than it doesn't matter.

Kane???

I'd probably go with Kane, too. I'm a huge mark for the guy, but he's never really been a huge merchandise seller, and he's never really been a PPV headliner. So I guess that's him not really being in the position to be, but I'd be interested to see just how much revenue Kane has brought in for the WWE. He might be the biggest star that has coasted behind other bigger names.

That's idiotic.

Regardless Bret drew in the US too. Business was down period and as has been previously stated Bret/HBK/Taker were what kept WWF alive.

Uhh, i'd beg to differ. Bret Hart was one, probably the biggest name to get a lot of my friends and me interested in the WWF and turn us in to fans. The one house show i've gone to in India was only because it had the Hitman as an assured attraction. As i was entering the stadium that night, i still remember most of the crowd sporting Bret Hart merch or bootlegged versions of his sunglasses - he drew in most of the Indian crowd.

And having read around, i'm sure it was the same for some of the other countries besides the US & Canada (where of course, he would be a draw)

I said Scott Hall not Razor Ramon. Razor was a supporting draw, held the mid card down tight, almost better than any IC Champ ever. But in WCW, he was not as big of a draw as Big Sexy. And when he had the company in his hand, when he was at the top, he fucked it up by being an idiot. He could have been so much more, hell he could have been the next Hollywood Hogan type of character if he would have stayed clean and left his ego at the door.

I am a huge Hall fan. I think Vince is an idiot for letting him and Nash go. However, it was quite clear he wasn't going to main event Wrestlemania for some reason.

I'd be surprised if The Undertaker drew.

Is this a joke? If it is, meh. If not, are you kidding? When was the last time a Wrestlemania didn't feature the WWE Championship or World Heavyweight Title? Merchandise and PPV buys, tickets, ratings, are you nuts? Just think about what Wrestlemania will be like without The Undertaker someday. I understand you may be tired of The Undertaker, but come on! He has been is some of the biggest storylines from each era he has been in. I am at a loss at this remark and cannot fathom what you are thinking.

How about being the World Heavyweight Champion at a time when SyFy was getting their biggest ratings ever? He has always been held down maybe for the right reasons because when he did explode and won Money in the Bank, went onto his latest feud with The Undertaker we saw him take the ball and run hard. So your right, he hasn't been booked as a draw for many years but when he was I'd say he did the damn job well. Also, think about the reaction he gets live (if you have seen him once or more). Kane is a WWE staple, and without him there would be a big hole in the roster.

Also, going way back he was a part of one of the greatest WWE stories of all time, in his debut and feud against the Undertaker, leading up to a huge match at Wrestlemania, which was without a doubt a PPV draw at the time.

I can't believe some of the posts in this thread! Triple H, not a draw? Are you fucking kidding me? Triple H has spent well over a decade at the top of the biggest wrestling company in WORLD HISTORY. How is he not a draw? DX anyone? Several Wrestlemania main events, and none of them were reported as poor buy rates. A highly successful and entertaining rise to the top featuring a summer long feud with Mankind. Being apart of one of the coolest stables in history? One half of what is widely considered the best Summerslam title match of all time (98/The Rock). Think about all of the t-shirts this guy sales! He's on the cover of ever WWE game in like 10 years. I would bet a large amount of money that Triple H had drawn more than many "wrestling heros" such as Ric Flair, or Harley Race. Some of you people gotta get real and stop letting your emotions and opinions change fact to fiction.

Hehe.

Anyone in TNA.

Your an idiot. Sting, Angle, Flair, Hogan, they all have drawn huge. And Impact! still does above average cable ratings. Chill.

And The Hardys.

Eddie Guerrero.

He was huge in bringing in a big Hispanic audience for Smackdown!, gotta disagree.

Jeff draws all the time

http://www.wwe.com/content/media/images/3883682/9735142

I remember him going from Mid-Card meh face to big fucking deal in about 45 minutes during a Clash.

You also got to see some of the promos before the Clash as well, such as this...

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I don't think people are going to or buying Wrestlemania on PPV because of the Undertaker. I don't remember any time where I went out of my way to watch a PPV because taker was on it. How were the buy rates of all PPVs he headlined other than Wrestlemania? I like the guy and I'm not trying to dis him, I just don't think many people are shelling out money to see the Undertaker.

I could be wrong.

Have drawn.

Have drawn.

Have drawn.

Yes, they may have been draws at one time, but they ain't done shit for TNA. Their sub-10,000 PPV buys prove that pretty well.

A good PPV buy rate is 10% of your average TV audience.

TNA averages 1.1 million people per week. That should translate into 110,000 PPV buys. TNA is lucky to get 1%, many times it's below that.

This proves no one in TNA is a draw.

You raise valid points, but the talent is not to blame it is the who damn production. From the studio audience to the creative, the ADD booking style and alignment changes. Sting is a draw, Jeff Hardy is a draw, Kurt Angle the same... Hell even RVD, the thing is their name was interesting for a few moments, until creative made them so run of the mill and uninteresting that they couldn't draw if they tried.

So your right and wrong in a lot of ways. But in the case of TNA, let us never blame the talent, because they do have a great roster that could be really good but their creative makes it unbearable. TNA itself is an "anti-draw" by this point. To me there is nothing they can do except withstand the test of time and give me a few good years so that basically their entire history is forgotten and replaces with goodness.