I just want to talk about Dolph Ziggler for a bit.
 

I am really digging what appears to be his direction currently. The more aggressive theme song...the amped up intensity...the extreme arrogance...

He just really seems like an actual threat now. I've been a fan for a while, but I never really thought he'd break through to the main event. Now? I'm thinking he has a shot at it. He's not really doing anything that we haven't seen before, but he's doing it so fucking well that it feels like his own.

Also, "FOLLOW THAT!" is gonna catch on. Mark my words.

Your thoughts?

He's really coming into his own I feel but seriously if they wanna make him seem like a legit contender they need to change his freaking name.

Ehh, you might be right, but if they're going to do something like that, it's going to have to be soon. The transformation is ALMOST complete.

Been high on Ziggler since his re-debut with Batista on Raw a few years back. Always thought he had all the tools, and since then he has had some show stealing matches. I'm really glad that they dropped his character overhaul they gave him earlier this year, and allowed him to go back to what he was good at with a little more edge to him. I can easily see him making much bigger strides in the next few months, and go on to have a few more World Title wins under his belt.

So in the record books, he's officially a former World Champion? I'm asking because I seriously don't know.

They've mentioned that he's a former World champion on commentary, so I'm assuming so.

I guess it's kinda like what Miz said to Swagger, though...

"If you win a World championship and nobody remembers it, did it really happen?"

He held it for like five minutes.

Anyways, I love that he has legitimized the sleeper hold as one of his finishers.

He was better in the spirit squad fo sho

I was a Spirit Squad fan, honestly.

I'm not high on him but that may be because he is with Vicky. Can't stand that women and ever since she was Smackdown's GM she's been a channel changer.

She didn't do anything on this past Raw but stand at ringside.

"I DARE just ONE PERSON to follow that! ONE PERSON!"

Love it

the shorter and dark haired ziggler looked like even bournes big brother

i was very glad they let him go back to his prior look atleast, but agree with most that he has all the tools and hopefully will be main eventing very soon

I'm digging him but I'd like to see him get involved with a fued that doesn't involve Kofi. A Ziggler-Bourne series could be gold. Something with Swagger perhaps?

Bourne would make sense, since he just "won" his feud with Swagger. Seems like he should be in line for a US title shot.

And now that we can tell Ziggler and Bourne apart again. :shifty:

They should give him corporal kirchner's old gimmick.

That's too bad as I just can't get over her even being on my tv.

Ziggler keeps getting better and better. His match with Bryan at Night of Champions got my attention, and ever since he's been the "go to" guy when it comes to solid in-ring performances.

He might not be the best on the mic, but that's why they paired him with Guerrero.

What if you just took an old friend's word for it and checked the match out on YouTube or something?

As long as WWE focuses more on guys like Ziggler, Morrison, Kofi, Dibiase, Rhodes, Bourne etc then it will continue to get better as it has since the beginning of July. Dolph Ziggler is one of the best things going in WWE and I see him going up with the revamped theme and who would have ever thought that Nicky of the Spirit Squad would become as big a star as he has. I am glad it wasn't Kenny Dykstra. I thought him and Mitch were the only two that were bad in the Spirit Squad. I am not a fan of Miz, Riley or Del Rio, but if they are seen as the future as well you have to make as many younger stars as you can for the next generation. Del Rio is great to watch in the ring, but I don't think hes good with any of the other aspects which is fine, because his ring skills are good and will get better. Him becoming champion wouldn't be the worst thing, but honestly Miz's title reign was my least favorite of all time and I really don't think he should have won it to begin with. Riley has all the potential and a great theme, but I am not a fan and still have yet to see a good match with him. I didn't think his matches with Miz were good at all.

Am I seriously the only fan here that thinks Dolph Ziggler isn't anything special? I admit his in ring work is good enough, but for the most part his matches haven't been exciting. It could be him and Kofi have been fueding for a year or so now, but his matches bore me. It seems like the guy is more of a mark for himself than the fans are. I dare someone to follow that??? As far as that goes, the Cena/Mysterio match that same night was far better.

And his mic skills aren't even vaguely interesting. In his fued with Edge, he had a chance to step up and prove himself, but again failed to impress. It's a pretty good indication of how much confidence WWE has in him when Vickie Guerrero is his manager. I mean, she gets heat b/c ppl hate her being annoying, but she doesn't scream personality. To me, him having her as a manager makes him look weak. I thought the night Austin was GM, we might see the end of that, but they totally overlooked that stipulation. So much for him being solo to see if he can develop better mic skills.

Overall, I haven't see that much in Ziggler. He's not a phenominal worker or entertainer, and hasn't even been improving on a consistent level. And what an abomination of a name. Of course, I never thought the guy would amount to much in the Spirit Squad, and even now doesn't convince me...

Ziggler has been allowed to talk more on his own. He seems to be doing well.

I agree about how in the past, especially during the World Title feud, he allowed Vickie to do most of the talking. He really needed to start taking control and transfer some of Vickie's massive heat towards himself.

Now I notice that Vickie's role seems to be minimized, while Dolph himself gets to shine a bit more.

Agreed. I hated when he changed hair color. He looked like everyone else. With the bleach blond hair, he stands out, I notice him more.

I've liked how he's treating the US title as being the only prestigious title on RAW or the WWE especially during the time when the WWE title was in a crisis when there was thoughts of Punk taking away the title when he left. He could even make reference that the US title is stable enough that it doesn't need any sort of reunification like the WWE title needs due to its mess.

If WWE was quick enough, they could have Ziggler mock Cena saying his is only a replica or not prestigious since Ziggler hasn't let his title been taken hostage by someone who was willing to leave the company. He could even mock Punk saying a true champion doesn't run away or make threats trying to take a belt away from a company.

I'd be more surprised if you ever didn't like the direction Ziggles was going in.

I'm pretty sure he could OD and be found bloated and naked in his bathtub and you'd post "I like where this is going."

Yes

No, the difference being I'm one of the few here with the balls to form an opinion that doesn't mean jumping on the bandwagon.

And it's ignorant of you to say I'd like him if he OD'ed. If that happened, it would be a shame, but his work is what it is. Theoretically, if he sucked when he was alive, he would suck if he was found dead in a hotel.

If ppl here like him, sing his praises, but I disagree. I'm not gonna call a mediocre at best wrestler great. At this point in his career, he hasn't shown anything special. The fact that Vickie Guerrero is his manager means he sucks as an entertainer. He hasn't used her in any apparent way to get over as a big time heel. Asking someone to follow your match is laughable too if you aren't having a 5 star classic. It sure as hell isn't a standard to judge other matches with...

Maybe it was the fact I was only guy here would didn't like Ziggler. That and his lame attempt to make fun of my "RAW is headed in the right direction" thread. Seems to narrow things down...

He's been one of WWE's top workers for quite a while. I think he's got all the confidence in the world when it comes to his in-ring performance, as he should. I really like his new "Follow that" thing, because he more than likely truly believes it and it shows.

It's obvious that his strength is putting on good matches, and he seems to realize that his character should revolve around his ability to put on a show better than anyone else. Because quite frankly, any scripted promo that I've seen from him comes off way too forced (like most scripted promos do, but him more than others).

Don't know why everyone is acting like him saying "Follow That" is a "thing" when he has only said it once. If he starts saying it some more, then it becomes a "thing".

His match against Bryan Danielson at Bragging Rights was BOSS!

Solid worker, but i agree with captaincharismark here. Don't find anything special in him, except when he used to do his hair flick (that was awesome). Sure, he'll go places, probably be a legit world champ one day, but he doesn't make me care about him. I think Vicky was his crutch, and they seem to be giving Ziggler more room nowadays to stand out on his own, so that's a step in the right direction.

Ziggler is moving up in my rankings every time I see him. Guy's got the potential and the look and I think if he keeps on this path he'll be a top contender in no time. As for a name change I really don't think it's nessasary, but it couldn't hurt and might speed the process of pushing him up a bit so I definatly am not opposed.

Well, being a solid worker and being great aren't the same thing. He doesn't quite stand out from other guys who are in the mid card currently. While giving him more space to shine without Vickie is a step in the right direction, it hardly makes him deserving of a major title. The main issue I have with Ziggler is he is so boring and bland. Sometimes I wonder if the sleeper hold he uses isn't a symbolic gesture of his character. Cause his matches and his character are in desperate need of vast improvement before I'd be convinced he's as good as he claims. Not exactly screaming standard bearer, and certainly not the best matches or most entertaining segments on RAW.

lol man

I love Dolph Ziggler. He's one of the best guys in the ring that they have, and he's got a good look and interesting persona. He works amazingly well with bigger guys, too. The guy's already a success (formerly a World Heavyweight Champion), but I expect bigger things from him. I'd like to see him start up a feud with Alex Riley.

Doesn't like Ziggler. Doesn't like Rhodes. Who does captaincharismark like?

I've already professed my love for Kingston/Ziggler matches.

With that said, I don't see him competing for Flair's or even Cena's number of world title reigns, but I can see them letting him bear the company flag for awhile.

What I like about Ziggler's matches is that his offense almost always makes sense. He seems like he goes in with a strategy, and he adjusts that strategy according to how things pan out. His name is hokey, but his execution certainly is not.

I would agree that his mic work has been sub-par barring a few occasions, and I think that might even lend to why I like the "FOLLOW THAT!" line. It's two simple words that are hard to jumble and pretty easy to deliver...kinda like another catch phrase that used to be accompanied by a crotch chop.

What would be even more surprising than THAT would be if you actually added anything to this discussion without making a stupid, non-comical attempt at a personal attack, but that's probably just me too.

I know that I never personally used the word "great" in this thread until this very sentence, but from a wrestling standpoint, Ziggler is definitely one of the best in the WWE right now. I've explained why I enjoy his matches in this very post, so I won't reiterate just yet.

Also, I was unaware that having Vickie Guerrero as a manager automatically meant that you sucked as an entertainer. Edge would like to have a word with you.

As far as the "FOLLOW THAT!" line being laughable, you may be forgetting that professional wrestling has heels and faces, and in the role of an arrogant heel (as Dolph Ziggler is portraying right now), it is not uncommon to make ridiculous claims to paint oneself in a superior light. It's the simple dynamics of pro wrestling, bud. If Ziggler was a FACE yelling that, it would be a little silly. He's not, though.

I don't see Ziggler approaching Flair or Cena's numbers either, and I just feel I should state that quite clearly now before anyone tries to put any words in my mouth. What I will say is that Ziggler's new found intensity has him more poised for kayfabe success than ever before in today's WWE.

Did you even read Kane Knights post that you replied to? Go back and read it again, see if you still think it's aimed at you.

Ziggler is good, can be great, but if I see another Kofi match I'm gonna pull my hair out.

I liked Ziggler and Kofi's matches because you could tell they cared about them being logical. The announcers did a pretty good job of pointing that out also.

Dolph is one of the few guys Ill watch now. Cant change the name now either. I know its silly but its different enough to separate him from generic wrestling names.

I think this ol' chap is somebody I can trust. I will give Mr. Ziggler a try on Monday.

It sure wouldn't be the bland and mediocre guys like Ziggler and Rhodes. Just b/c liking them is popular opinion doesn't mean I have to jump on the bandwagon. I see nothing that makes either guy stand out, other than bad promos and less than stellar matches...

Keep the name, get rid of Vicky, and continue to improve on the wrestling matches. Now that's heading in the right direction for his character.

While I do agree he seems to use strategy in his matches, I think that makes it more bland and boring. When was the last time a great wrestler needed a strategy to get a match over? Plus, I've always admired the wrestlers that can improv their work and be innovative. Being creative in the ring shouldn't be over analyzed. It does add some structure to the matches, but in the end I can pretend they aren't boring. His name is another example of WWE creative not having a clue, as they have never come up with a decent name. Not his fault there.

Yeah, but it's also a clever attempt on WWE's part to hide his flaws on the mic. Using two words accomplishes that. However, it's a very cheesy way of doing it. I do like that phrase, cause it draws more heat for him and gives him an attitude. Seems to me though that he could be more comfortable on the mic. Even the worst guys on the mic could deliver two words. To be considered a top guy you have to deliver big time on the mic and have the ability to keep up anyone. All I'm saying is he tends to rely on Vickie too much to draw heat for him.



Glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that fact. KK tends to enter a discussion like this and try and personally attack someone. Ok if you want to be a smartass, but not great if you don't add one insight into the topic. How lame is it that he feels the need to take personal shots over actual conversation?



I can understand ppl liking him using some strategy as a form of psychology. but it bores me. Rather than making his matches better, to me they are less watchable. I find myself doing anything but paying attention after the first few minutes he's in the ring. To some extent, I think that's why some ppl don't like him. Short attention spans(like mine)and over thought matches equals disaster. You have to be aware of the fans when you plan a match. It can be logical without being boring to the point of turning the fans away.

In Edge's case, he was the "ultimate opportunist" so him using Vickie when she was SD and RAW GM made sense for his character. In Ziggler's case, he has Vickie as a way of getting him over on the mic. Not exactly a proper comparison, though I can see why you might make that analogy.

I've never forgotten wrestling has heels and faces. Always interesting when someone accuses me of not knowing wrestling b/c of a different opinion. I realize saying, "Follow That" is a way of getting him over as an arrogant heel. Although it accomplishes that, it's a cheesy way of doing so. And certainly doesn't improve his character any. In the end, if he doesn't improve, he'll be yet another bland guy stuck in the mid card...



There's a reason you don't see Ziggler approaching Cena or Flair. That's b/c both Cena and Flair understand what it takes to entertain ppl more properly. Until Ziggler can fully understand how to evolve his character and not be repetitive, he'll always be one dimensional. Can he successful? Yes, but only if he can adapt. If not, I could easily see him being released somewhere down the line.

Tough job, but somebody has to do it. ;)

Hey, I'm all for being a "hipster" (much :heart: for Bieber) but you didn't actually tell us who you do like...

It depends on which show you're talking about....

RAW
CM Punk
John Cena
Rey Mysterio
The Miz
HHH(I think his new role will freshen his career up)

SD
Sheamus(very awesome, talented big guy)
Christian
Randy Orton
Kane

Thanks.

What mid or upper midcarders do you like Captain Charismark? Just so we know who to avoid praising if we don't want to be considered sheep.

Are you saying you would prefer the matches to be over-the-top and nonsensical? I'm not asking that to be a dick, but just trying to gauge your interest. One of the biggest critiques of wrestling over the years is that it's obviously predetermined and often cheesy. Ziggler matches always seem more 'legitimate' to me, and he makes it easier to suspend disbelief. I also find it difficult to buy that Ziggler isn't innovative. He's constantly doing things that I haven't seen before or adding a new twist on old traditions.

His name is pretty much a moot point. It doesn't detract from what he does in the ring. Honestly, the cheesy nature of his name seems like it would be right up your alley, seeing as to how you apparently aren't a fan of making things seem too real.



What's wrong with hiding flaws? They're letting him showcase what he's GOOD at and not forcing his weaknesses down our throats. It's a pretty sound strategy, and we should honestly be thankful they are employing it. This tactic was what made Paul Heyman a wrestling deity.

You don't NEED to be great on the mic to be a top guy (read: Goldberg, Brock Lesnar, The Undertaker, Lex Luger, Yokozuna, Bret Hart, Rey Mysterio, etc.), even though it would definitely help. It's not necessary, though. There's no reason to pretend he's great when he's not. Just let him go on and continue putting on wrestling clinics, like he has been doing. He's perfectly capable of being a top guy in TODAY'S WWE.

As far as Vickie, she didn't do a single thing this past Monday besides stand at ringside. Sure they were using her heat at first, but Dolph seems to really be coming into his own as of late. Just because Shawn Michaels used Sherri's heat at first doesn't mean he was a shitty entertainer.


I guess I would have to ask you what some of your favorite matches of all time are. Before you even answer, I'm willing to bet that they were longer than most matches and pretty well thought out.

You said that having Vickie as a manager meant that you weren't a good entertainer. That's simply not true. It's not like Edge was some extreme outlier. The only other person to compare anything Vickie-related to is Eric Escobar, and I'm kinda furious that I've just been reminded of his existence.


I wasn't actually accusing you of not knowing wrestling, you dork. I was ribbing you a bit and making a point. I feel I've earned that right by now, since this definitely isn't the first go-round we've had on the boards. I swear, not everything is a personal attack.

Again, the word 'cheesy' comes up. From what you've been saying, you seem to prefer 'cheesy' to 'sensical', so I feel you're going to have to elaborate on your actual wrestling taste here.

As far as Ziggler being stuck in the mid card, he's already been a World Heavyweight champion, so somebody (that mattered) somewhere at least saw a little something in him. He's clearly being groomed for the future.


Why does it always seem to come back to the all-time greats with you? I was even more careful with my wording of this thread title as to not get you up in arms about it (you're welcome).

Here's the bottom line: Ziggler is very good in the ring. While in the past he was presented as a bit of a joke, the character seems to be coming to the point now where he can be taken as a serious threat, and he can easily become a top player in today's WWE landscape. The only part of that you seem to disagree with is that he is very good in the ring, and to me, that's laughable.

"Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I'm not gonna like some no-talent, charisma-free nobody just because everybody else does."

I wonder if the new breed of hipster smarks ever crush two cans of PBR together like Steve Austin.

They only do it ironically.

My booking of a Ziggler/Riley feud:

* Dolph Ziggler beats Alex Riley on RAW next week to retain the US Title after Vickie Guerrero pulls a leg of Riley, or something, which allows Ziggler to capitalise with the Zig Zag.

* Riley confronts Triple H and tells him that he wants Ziggler again. "You've got it, pal." Ziggler vs. Riley for the US Title at SummerSlam -- but it'll be Riley's last shot at the title.

* Riley brings up Shaul Guerrero as his valet to cancel-out the Vickie factor. This really messes with Vickie's head, and at SummerSlam, Riley manages to hit his Hit the Showers for the three count to become the new United States Champion.

* Dolph and Vickie are upset. Ziggler wants his rematch, and will get it at Night of Champions. Prior to that, you Riley & Shaul going over Dolph & Vickie, and Shaul beating Vickie. The matches won't be pretty, but they will be over.

* Riley beats Ziggler at Night of Champions to retain the US Title with his TKO. The story here is that Ziggler has the Implant DDT scouted, but Riley manages to use a back-up finishing move to put Ziggler down for the three. It shows that Ziggler is savvy, while putting over Riley clean.

* They can blow-off their feud on RAW in a 2/3 Falls Match. Ziggler gets the first fall, which is a good way to make Ziggler look good moving on from this, but Riley gets the next two and goes over quite strong in his feud with Ziggler. Depending on what sort of stories they have going on elsewhere at this time, this could take place at one of the October PPVs. Or perhaps a match where Ziggler manages to secure the stipulation of his choosing. He chooses a Submission Match, which forces Riley to show off a different side to his game.

Actually, I don't prefer the matches to be over the top or nonsensical. Being predetermined has nothing to do with it either. I've always valued the art of wrestling and the stories it tells. Judging it for being predetermined would be ignorant if you've been watching for any length of time. Obviously calling it "fake" would be a dismissive way of ignoring what wrestling is. Ziggler's matches are sound from a psychological standpoint, but they aren't watchable to me. As far as him being innovative, he does a few moves I haven't seen, but otherwise shouldn't be considered an innovator. I'll admit he's got a unique style, but he's not a very exciting wrestler or character.

I was actually agreeing with you there. WWE creative is a joke as far as naming wrestlers. It has nothing to do with seeming real. You assuming b/c I don't like Ziggler I'm not a fan of realism is a far stretch. The fact is I do like realistic wrestling, but being bland and boring in the ring is where my problem with him comes in. There's a difference between "suspending disbelief" and putting the crowd to sleep. As far as that goes, "suspending disbelief" and being realistic are polor opposites, so it's one or the other. He's either over the top or he portrays realism. Ziggler sure isn't over the top, so I agree it is more realistic, but in a very boring kinda way.


The main issue with hiding flaws is it's ignoring the problems he has. To limit him on the mic to two words isn't gonna help him improve. He hasn't really had much mic time, so to limit him already is a bad move. Most of his career, someone else has done his talking. For all we know, he might eventually be a good mic worker. If they hide his flaws, they also take a shortcut and ensure he'll never be any better than he is now...

It's not necessarily mandatory to have great mic skills, but it helps. However, it is mandatory to be good enough to get your storyline over. Ziggler has to rely on two words, Vickie Guerrero, or his opponent to carry him on the mic. I'll grant you WWE is partly to blame there, but Ziggler has to step up and not be complacent.

She didn't do much Monday, but she sure has been doing most all of his talking for him. Using her heat should be an advantage, for Ziggler though it hasn't benefited him. Which is a shame since he's a pretty decent heel. Shawn Michaels may have capitalized on Sherri's heat, but he evolved on the mic and became a good mic worker. Something thus far Ziggler has not and it the difference between being great and only decent...




My favorites are ones that are entertaining while doing a good job of wrestling. And yeah, some are longer although the ones I like don't put me to sleep. Being a great match doesn't mean having a strategy. You think guys like Bret Hart, Austin, The Rock, Angle, Undertaker, Benoit, Guerrero and HBK had to use that to get over??? I admired all those guys more b/c they didn't have to plan the match down to every detail. They pretty much went out and did it on the fly. You can tell with Ziggler his matches are meticulously planned, with only makes his matches more boring.



When she does most all of your talking it's not a good thing. And yeah, it does say to me that you aren't a good entertainer if she talks 90% of the time for you. At least Edge did all his own talking for himself and was entertaining enough to stand on his own. It's clear using Vickie as a mouthpiece was the intention WWE had to hide Ziggler's inability on the mic. As for Eric Escobar, I was also hoping to never hear that name again. He's another good example though of someone WWE paired with Vickie to talk for him...


It sure sounded like you said I didn't know wrestling. I've actually been watching close to 20 years, so I think I have some insight on wrestling. Ribbing me b/c you think it's your right proves nothing. All that does is make you look more immature and attempting to make it personal. I could care less if you think I'm a dork, as I call it like I see it. I'm sure this won't be the last time we don't see eye to eye, but I always try to be objective rather than focusing on winning an argument...


He was champion for what, 5 minutes??? You can't really count that fluke win as WWE thinking he's the future. He may be groomed for the future, but that doesn't mean he's ready for it. And if he impressed someone that mattered, more power to them. That will hardly change his progress so far lacking or my current opinion of him. Just b/c WWE pushes someone as the future doesn't mean I like them. They earn my respect when they can be something more than one dimensional...



The reason I do that is to gauge how well a superstar is progressing. While I realize he needs more time to be considered in that league, his evolution(or lack thereof)hasn't been too fast. If you felt you had to censor your wording b/c of me, I feel sorry for you. Having discussions on topics is the only way to objectively view things. Too often ppl on here let their bias toward a wrestler bind them from discussing something objectively. I'm more than willing to say why I do or don't support someone or something. I can understand you not agreeing with me, but trying to avoid an actual discussion is detrimental to the topic...

To me the bottom line is Ziggler is nowhere near ready for the ME. He pretty much hasn't evolved any as a character or much as a wrestler. While WWE may use him eventually, IMO he needs vast improvement in order to advance from mid card to main eventer. His in ring work is solid, but not very watchable. I honestly have never paid much attention to anything Dolph Ziggler related, and I think that is telling about how bland and boring he is...

Speaking of being bland and boring...

A few things:

*I've been discussing the fuck out of this topic with you. What would make you say I'm avoiding an actual discussion?

*Will you please cite some particular examples of matches you really enjoy? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

*When I say that Ziggler has a "strategy", I'm talking from a kayfabe point of view. His character has a gameplan in which to win the match, and that has happened in matches with all of those greats that you listed. I don't think every single move is planned out, and there's really no one here than can tell either of us how much of it is on the fly.

It makes me sad that you has to explain that last part. :(

You do discuss topics with me, although it seems like to some extent you try to avoid it. Things you say like you properly worded this topic in order to keep me from responding in detail. Can't really have a balanced look at an issue without both sides of a debate. I realize it's long and drawn out to respond point by point, but there's really no other way I see of talking topics out. Alot of times seeing both sides of a topic will give you some new perspective when viewing someone(or something in particular).

The matches I like are guys who can have great matches while keeping the fans attention. Guys like Bret Hart, HBK, HHH, Austin, Rock, Jericho, Angle, or Taker. Any big match or fued those guys had made me a fan on the true art of wrestling. Of course, guys like Brock Lesnar, Goldberg, Nash, Hall and Hogan also had watchable matches, though not all were wrestling clinics.

I understand kayfabe, though it's a word I detest. And yeah, the greats had the same happening in their matches, but they presented it in a more exciting and watchable way. Obviously, there's no way to tell which matches are planned meticulously definitively, but it's more an educated guess. Ziggler's matches seem to lack that certain element of excitement that bigger matches have. You can always tell when something special is happening, and for me, Ziggler just doesn't do that.

If ppl can blindly mark for a wrestler, surely the reasons I listed could be considered valid for not liking Ziggler. You might not agree with my logic/reasons, but the fact remains I did attempt to explain my opinion.

B/c it's a word that gets thrown around alot by wrestling fans. Fans often talk like they have some insider knowledge on wrestling, when really all we do is speculate with the info we have.

"I know Kay Fabian".

Haven't read all of this thread so this may or may not have already been said, but I kind of think they're turning Dolph into an Edge/Jericho like character. Not Rated R Superstar-wise, but just the way that they could always be put in a main event and have it treated like a main event. It took them a while to get to that, but it happened. I feel like Dolph is in the beginning stages of a career like them.

I've always enjoyed DZ.

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What's not to like about hs in-ring ability?

Sounds about right.

Yeah, I have, but I don't try to state my knowledge on wrestling as a fact. Basically, the info I've heard from the wrestlers themselves is what I use when discussing topics. Often here, ppl think they know more than actual wrestling insiders, which is laughable to me. Especially when saying something seems "legitimate" or in kayfabe. Personally, it's serves as an irritation to me....

Seems like an odd gripe.

It's not even as much an insider term as shoot, work, face, heel for example. The scenario that bugs you (people coming off like they know more than actual insiders) doesn't even apply to kayfabe IMO.

To say Undertaker and Kane are kayfabe brothers is undisputable fact. Where as relaying backstage gossip as fact is totally different.

Dude I am the quintessential wrestling fan, for instance I just spent 50 bucks yesterday on WWE DVD's instead of streaming them. So you better fucking take my word when I say that Dolph Ziggler's name is the shit and so is his in ring ability.

Dolph is the perfect fusion of Curt Henning and Billy Gunn, it's going to make money motha fuckaaaaa, I just wonder where they will work him in.

I personally think Dolph/Orton or Dolph/Punk or Dolph/Cena or Dolph/Del Rio in a main event scenario would be match of the year candidates more than likely.

There are facts dude, FACT Hogan and Flair ruled in the 80's and were awesome.

Tell me that's not a fact and I swear we got a fisticuffs match on our hands

I call referee.

See, I view 'kayfabe' as the plane in which everything in wrestling is to be accepted as 'real'. If someone has a kayfabe strategy, it may be something along the lines of 'my opponent injured his knee in a match last week, so I will gear my offense towards that injured knee'. That same person's REAL motivation would be more along the lines of 'I would like to have an entertaining match with my opponent tonight, and I hope we hit all of our spots'.

All of my references in this thread to Ziggler's 'strategy' in matches were based on the kayfabe version that I have just explained here. I wouldn't ever claim to know how much of any of it was ACTUALLY planned step-by-step or whatever, though.

Has someone torn into captaincharismark for suggesting that it means nothing that the WWE gave Dolph Ziggler the World Heavyweight Title -- even if only for five minutes. Do you really think the WWE would give a guy they didn't think was World Champion material the World Championship? To me, it says "You know what, kid -- you're so fucking good, we're going to give you this now -- but you'll have a proper run someday."

Also, Vickie with Dolph is a face turn in the bank. Random thought.

IMO Dolph Ziggler is the best wrestler in the WWE right now. Better than Christian, better than Bryan, and yes even better than Punk. If he can bring his character anywhere close to matching his in ring ability, he will be legendary.

I mentioned it.

Bumping this guy since it has three pages and I don't want to litter (ANY MORE THAN I ALREADY HAVE)

There have been a few stories talking about DZ receiving praise backstage for his efforts. I really agree with them. He really looks like he's going to be ready relatively soon. Since he has the heat magnet Vickie Guerrero in his corner, not only will this continue to benefit him heat-wise, but if he were to turn on her (somewhere down the road) it would immediately get him over. He has plenty of time, too. Really think Ziggler is going to be a mega star in the company.

I think he's been booked very well, his promos have drastically improved (not that they were ever that bad), and people are taking the guy seriously. He still carries himself like a classic heel, but I think a pattern has been established and fans are not going to expect him to be a loser. This is a sweet spot.

So far, I'm pretty happy with Ziggler working his way up in a way that makes sense. I hope they continue what they're doing, letting him grow without pulling the trigger on just tossing him out into the main event. I also hope that they don't try to schedule this guy around the next MITB. Just let him happen.

The US title looks pretty good right now.

That being said, what would you guys do with Ziggler in the next few months?

Also:

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Ziggler is definitely in my FAVE FIVE right now. He's been on fire for a very long time.

I'm enjoying his mic work a lot too. I like the little sly digs he throws in like when he confronted Jackman.

Ziggler is going to be a guy one day, no doubt about it in my mind. You hear nothing about the attitude problems that keep guys like John Morrison down. He plays the dick-weed heel so well, and I find myself literally marking out for some of his random Twitter posts. He's great at making guys look good, too, which is always a great asset to have.

I loved the dude when he was on NXT. Probably my favourite Pro there ever, actually. The way he's just get on the live mic and look for whatever reason he could to chew out the babyface rookies. "Did you just drop the American flag?!? Communist!"

I'm not sure how the dude is progressing on the mic, but if he gets to that level where he's a good mic worker, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want this guy at the top of your card.

Also, I love it that the last two times Ziggler has won a championship, he's shouted out "THIS IS MINE FOREVER!!!!!!" :lol:

I truly think Ziggler "gets it," too. He works against the internet, trying to antagonise them more than anything, sticking to his heel role; but he manages to do so in an entertaining way.

Plus, for a guy that is kayfabe billed as someone that would have been accepted into the Cruiserweight Division when it was around, I don't find myself thinking of Ziggler as a "small guy." He carries himself in a small guy way the same that Shawn Michaels. Not trying to say that Ziggler is as good as HBK, or that he has to be, but just that for a guy who technically doesn't have size on his side -- it doesn't really seem like it matters shit-all.

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At about the 41 second mark... :love:

For a casual fan, it would have been so satisfying to see Ziggler lose the belt mere minutes later. Glorious.

I hope they keep him away from a MitB cash-in Title win. Pretty tired on them "making" guys with the briefcase. It'd be nice to see them "make" someone new/young without it.

Dolph is one of the only reasons I tune in nowadays. I had hoped he would win the tag belts, as I think having two different titles could have really been good for his character.

Dolph Ziggler is awesome. Plain and simple. He is easily one of my favorite wrestlers these days. He has the look. He has the charisma. He has the skills. If he continues to grow and improve, he will be in the main event picture for sure, and I can't wait.

I asked him something on Archer and he replied to me on twitter, so he's good in my book.

His mic work is getting good now too.

I agree with most of what's said, especially the quotation marks around "making," because of the fact that it has not worked for everyone so far. If the guy's getting there on his own, don't follow a risky formula. Then again, Ziggler doesn't strike me as the kind of dude that would fail to benefit from a briefcase push. But I feel that you can only have so many briefcase winners before the commodity wears off.

I don't really think there's anything wrong with becoming a champion via MitB cash-in.