Let's talk about Shawn Michaels and a bit about Bret Hart(non-screwjob related) NOID POST
 

Let me preface this with, this is not Bret vs. Shawn. They are both awesome and incomparable as far as quality as performers.

This is about the influence they had on one another as far as being in ring performers.

Shawn Michaels upon his return to the E in 2002 was almost untouched as far as being an all around performer... he was actually breathtaking in the way he was able to captivate people. He had questionable programs mostly to do with Vince, Shane and DX as well as a dragged out feud with HHH but I'd say those were greatly over shadowed by his epic performances against the Angle's, Jericho's and Undertakers of the world, as well as phenomenal performances in his more drawn out stuff such as against Vince and HHH in many matches.

He had the ability to make everyone care about what he was doing. He achieved legend status so smoothly it's almost like it was no big thing.

Go back to the 90's and think about his character then. The male stripper gimmick, the "clique", Vince Mcmahon having homo sexual fantasies over him on commentary. While constantly delivering amazing matches and being a great performer, something was missing. His connection with the fans was not believable. Chicks and kids loved him, but he simply was not an everyman. He was tacky, and over the top. He lacked attitude and everything about him was over the top. It was too over dramatic. He was being forced down people's throats as a demi-god and it was like "WE GET IT, YOU'RE A BIG DEAL".

When he turned heel in DX, it seemed he was being truer to whom he really was and was sensational.

Right before that turn though, we had Bret Hart vs Stone Cold as the hottest feud in the company and Shawn was sort of left in the dust. It was because he wasn't real, his character was contrived. He eclipsed Bret as the top heel when he turned after costing Taker the championship, because he was so damned believable, it just made sense, he was an arrogant shithead, but he was awesome. It seemed Shawn was able to channel the realness of Bret and Steve, and run with it and do it as well as they did, until he got injured.

Fast forward to '02 and beyond and Michaels was pretty much Steamboat levels of face. He seemed so much more likable and believable.

This is where I think Bret Hart comes into play. Bret was known for taking his relationship with the fans seriously, and cherishing their support as a babyface. He was completely believable, a "good Canadian kid" who fought hard for the fans. I feel like Shawn Michaels initially lacked the appreciation for the fans and took for granted their support when he was a face and therefore started getting booed. When he returned, he dedicated himself to legitimately having appreciation for his fans and tweeking his character as such. His understanding of the audience catapulted because he seemed to value their support as opposed to just expecting it. It would have been WRONG for him to ever be a heel. I feel like he was influenced a lot by Bret, as they were both around the same size and knew how much extra it took to be believable and be as over as he was as a face. Shawn took nothing for granted during his second run.

Sorry about the length of this haha.

Bret Hart: 5 moves of doom, over-rated as a draw, no charisma

HBK: the complete opposity.

Are you seriously Canadian?

I wouldn't say Bret had no charisma, because when he became heel in 1997 (and for a little bit in WCW) he was pretty good. He just never depended on it to get over, he was more comfortable with letting his in-ring work do the "talking". He was also very uptight about his character, so it probably made him more uptight altogether.

Keith, you don't have to respond seriously to Gertner. You're right, though.

I always appreciate a Gertner visit, he's my boardwalk empire homey.

Also Keith, you are quite correct. Bret was also very over in WCW esp by the time he got the world title.

Oh also, how awesome would it have been if Shawn Michaels ended up in WCW in '98.

sans broken back lol.

Yes. The (for a little bit in WCW) was referring to him being pretty good and over in WCW for a little bit, not him being heel "for a little bit". Should've explained myself better, sorry.

Shawn Michaels v. Kwee Wee would have been awesome circa 2000.

hahahahaha. I'm assuming if he was there, he woulda joined the nwo and feuded with ddp. Him and Bret wouldn't have worked together or looked the other in the eye though. Imagine if they got booked together in wcw in 1998, omfg wcw would still be in business today if booked properly.

I wasn't a fan then, but I don't know how WCW dropped the ball so bad in late 1997/early 1998. How fucking hard was it to put Sting over Hogan cleanly and decisively and bring in Bret Hart as possibly the best wrestler in the world who was screwed in the "other company?" The WWE were gaining steam with Austin's rise and all that, but WCW should have really continued killing.

I'd still love to see Shawn Michaels involved in WWE programming. Gertner will surely hate this, but the idea of Daniel Bryan being accompanied by Shawn Michaels against Tyson Kidd being accompanied by Bret Hart gets me a little wet.

Simply put, WCW got boring and watered down. That's what happened. They lost their edge after the nWo thing had gone on for too long. Hogan just didn't think it made sense for him to put over Sting clean. You know how he always was the best at protecting his character. There's even a sliver of truth to his claim though. Sting hadn't wrestled an actual match in over a year, so how could be expected to go one on one against Hogan? The only thing he had done was some ring clearing at the end of shows and really worked on his character. The commentary during the match even alluded to Sting's ring rust which probably means they wanted to set it up that way. However, Hogan broke one of his own rules to not go against the fans when you know what they obviously want.

WCW would have misbooked HBK the same as they did Hart. He might have had one good feud, but I doubt he would have been used properly. The roster was already a little bloated. Now I'm as big a WCW fan as anyone here, but even I have to submit to reality.

The money was in Sting absolutely slaughtering Hogan and becoming WCW World Heavyweight Champion. That's it. Anything else was fucking dumb.

Bret Hart was the greatest canadian rassler of all time. That makes him the 50th best rassler of all time. Just below both Nasty Boys.

Triple H vs Shawn Michaels is the greatest rivalry of the post-Attitude era. Please tell me a bad match they had.

The Montreal match isn't that good.

They didn't have a bad match, but I remember a lot of people thinking that some of their stuff went on a bit much. I didn't really watch RAW at the time; SmackDown! was far more interesting under Heyman's book.

They feuded from August 2002 - December 2002. After Armageddon, HBK/Jericho kicked off through Mania while Triple H was forced to work with Steiner, Booker T. HHH/Nash started after Mania and HBK was around, but he was feuding with Flair and Orton. Elimination Chamber at SSlam 03 feat. HHH and HBK, but the focus was Goldberg/HHH that dominated the fall. HHH/HBK didn't pick up again until Royal Rumble 04 and ran through Bad Blood 04, but of course Chris Benoit was featured heavily in the feud from Feb-April.

James you know well enough there's no point in arguing with you about HHH because you take it far too personally . All I know is he hogged too much tv time in that period I say that because I myself AND many others was like "MEH" and got bored whenever he was on t.v. They did however have great matches, but the feud was forced down our throats. And let's not get into how crap the new DX was.

It was pretty fucking over, so only a handful of people were "MEHing".

The problem was it was focused on two extremely established guys not in need of the feud to get themselves over. Surely they could have worked with other guys and got THEM over. Neither guy needed that feud to last as long as it did.

Michaels feud with Jericho on the other hand served a FAR greater purpose and I think resonates more and really helped develop Michaels' character.

I wouldn't say Triple H hogged too much air time back then. Rock was leaving to go Hollywood, Stone Cold was retiring. So WWE needed a veteran guy to step up to the plate and hold things down, and Triple H was the guy. Actually, that was when he was hitting his peak, he was the #1 heel in the business for quite some time. He had been working towards being the top guy for a while, and it was his time.

Triple H being the top heel did what it was supposed to do, and proof that he wasn't into hogging the spotlight is that once he reunited with HBK as DX in 2006, he never again was the top guy. He was content with being face, doing the DX thing, main eventing once in a while, and that was it.

Always welcome new opinions on the matter.

I respect HHH as a performer, but my biggest problem with him is he's always been so damned protected. I don't give a fuck about him slamming the bosses daughter, that is what it is. I think he's a hell of a talented performer but he could have created a lot more stars than he did. (Note: not saying he never jobbed and never gave anyone the rub), he just had a way of haulting progress of guys like RVD, Booker T and Shelton Benjamin. Not all his fault, but a booking fault with his character. He also totally slaughtered Randy Orton who was on his way to the top and really hindered his career for a bit.

At the end of the day he did help make Batista, tapped to the crossface at mania (lolz after being in it for about an hour) and jobbed to Cena. I personally think it was too little too late, but he did do his part at certain times.

There's no doubt Triple H protected himself "characterwise" and in every other way. I mean, I still think he decided to become friends with the Kliq (in particular with Shwan) with the idea of helping himself, of learning what he needed to learn and I'm sure he knew the Kliq had a direct open line of communication with Vince McMahon so of course, he was going to take advantage of all that to help himself. I actually think that's where his good relationship with Vince began, not once he began going out with Steph, but back when he was hanging out with Shawn. And he just did what he needed to do to get to where he wanted to get.

But when it came time for him to back it up in the ring, he also did that. So I respect that.

RVD didn't deserve a title run in 2002 because he was openly bashing the company and his drug use. He proved what a useless sack of shit he was after WWE gave him the push of a lifetime in 2006.

Booker T. is one I will concede.

Shelton Benjamin was athletic as hell, and if anything, Triple H gave him the rub along with Shawn Michaels but Benjamin just didn't have the charisma/mic skills to take advantage of the oppurtunities.

Randy Orton was the drizzling shits as a face and was exposed as how not ready he was for the World Title/main event push in 2004.

that was after being slaughtered by HHH, his character had some serious harm done to it and he lost his edge, that feud was a killer. If he went over in a long feud and was able to learn even more from HHH and really get the rub, he wouldn't have been the "drizzling shits" in '04. He had to repair the damage and it was hard.

Drug use or not, RVD was over and entertaining and coulda used the belt. Had to create new stars, RVD connected with the audience.

Personally I liked the Screwjob. It was the most interesting on WWE TV at that point.

It was captivating television. that is for sure. Was that catalyst to the Vince McMahon character that drew so much against Austin.

It also helped put Shawn over even more as heel. Shawn was def. the biggest heel in wrestling until 1999.

I agree with Gorgeous Dale here. Like him, I'm not slamming Triple H based on his talent or saying that he never did anything for anybody, but when it comes to RVD, Booker T and Randy Orton, I entirely agree. Now, I'm not saying that RVD was deserving of being champion at that point, but it was a different WWE then, and people were hungry for it. Triple H's NyQuil reign smacked down so many potential top babyfaces from Booker T to Kane to Goldberg and I believe, although I can't be sure, that SmackDown! may have even caught RAW in the ratings at that time.

Triple H is still one of the greatest ever and has poured far more into the business than so many other guys that have used it and moved on; but I will not reverse my opinion that as a heel when the brand split started, Triple H was just plain old boring. And I do remember a lot of people being bored -- it wasn't just me and a few others on the IWC.

That there is why I think Triple H was given the World Heavyweight Title for so long. The WWE had lost Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock, and that really hurt them, so there was this desire to keep the World Title on Triple H, because he was the safe bet. He married into the entire company and he wasn't going anywhere. It's part of the reason why I think Jeff Jarrett dominated TNA in the early days, too.

Brock Lesnar leaving the WWE in 2004 didn't help matters any, either. I think from that moment on there's been a bit of paranoia in pushing new stars to the top so quickly. Alberto Del Rio and Sheamus seemed to slide past that to some degree, but they didn't put the World Heavyweight Title on Del Rio when they should have, and Sheamus did suffer from a bit of a lull period after winning the King of the Ring, of all things.

you must of been sleepin in the 90's. they are easily 10 people who were better heels then hbk.

Booker T and RVD should a been World Champions but thanks to Triple H it never happened, because he was egoistical son of a bitch and he still is.

Shawn didn't need the screwjob. After the heel turn on taker he was already red hot.

Uh, list please.

Hogan was the biggest heel in wrestling during that era. It's not even close, and I love HBK.

Says something that nobody can bring up Bret Hart without Shawn Michaels name tagged to it.

Bret was defined by HBK, not true the other way round.

Not sure wat point I'm trying to make here but def HBK > Bret.

Different kind of Heat.

oh ffs shut up St. Jimmy. Just because Hogan wasn't jerk off material for you workrate queers doesn't diminish him. Hogan was BY FAR the biggest heel in wrestling from mid 96 to 1999

This is what I love. The lard ass douchebags smarks find a wrestler who is "over" without their approval and they either play it down, or say It's XPac heat".

You can use whatever warped perception you want, but in 1997-1998 fans wanted to KILL Shawn Michaels. No one ever wanted to Kill hogan.

Shawn in 97-99 would've torn Hogan to Shreds in promos. The fans would've automatically sided with Hogan if they were fueding. Shawn had THAT kind of heat.

Your simple compare/contrast argument doesn't work.

I dunno. Hogan was a pretty huge heel at the time.

Lol you mean the 100 people watching the WWF during that time wanted to kill HBK. WWF was the WCW's bitch during that time, so I don't see how you can say HBK was the biggest heel when

1. He was done for a while after April of 1998

2. NOBODY watched the WWF during that era

3. Hogan's heel turn was and is the most talked about and prominant turn in wrestling history

Well that's simply bogus. HBK rebirthed his career that spanned a decade after Bret was forced into retirement. The first half of his career is defined by Bret Hart. The second half of Harts career is defined by HBK.

Both are extremely accomplished for many different reasons.

Yeah from 1996-1998 Hogan was massive as a heel. HBK was gone before WWF really started hammering WCW.

triple h put o ver alot of the other mans in the wrestling show usibng his own momentam

Triple H is probably the best heel ever.

Clearly you've never watched Jake the Snake, Randy Savage, Ric Flair, or dozens of others.

Greatest heels ever were billy and chuck bc everyone hates the gays

You've probably never pulled your head out of your fucking ass.

Hogan was the biggest heel in wrestling until around 1998 when Vince took that title.

Come on James, stop taking this debate so personally, I get that he is your favourite wrestler but you act like a 7 year old in defending him. Almost as though you are trolling... very disappointing.

Anyways, those guys got over without being put over EVERY SINGLE person in the company. The problem with HHH is the booking direction was always there to remind you how much above everyone he was.

HHH is really good, even great, and a legend in his own right, but he's just not on the all time scale like those guys.

What HHH was great at was playing the game which is why he is the game. A lot of the all time greats didn't "play the game" and that's why they're not running the company.

LOL, that's kind of ironic, isn't it? You're someone who can't admit Daniel Bryan is over, for crying out loud.

You are entirely right about Hogan being the biggest heel at that time, however.

Financially, I'd be curious to know who the best heel of all-time actually is. My gut is telling me that it would be either Hogan or Triple H. By "financially," I mean which heel got people putting down the most cash to see them beaten. Which heel managed to go up against the most successful babyface? The WWE's year in 2000 was absolutely epic, and there's no doubt that Triple H was the heel of that period. He lulled a bit after that with shitty reigns in 2002, 2003 and so on, but his stuff with The Rock made the WWE a lot of money in 2000.

I remember attending a WCW House Show in 1998 at the Palace of Auburn Hills in Michigan which holds well over 18,000 and it was sold out, The card was meh, but the main event was Hogan vs Sting in a cage. Pretty amazing that a House Show sold out. People HATED Hogan and couldn't wait to see Sting beat him.

Ric Flair is the only comparison here that is even arguable.

I can't really compare Flair's earlier career to Triple H's career because of the time frames and differences in wrestling between those times, but it feels like Flair used to be a great wrestler/heel without really being "over" so much in the past 15 years or so. Just seems like that last stretch of time has been a saggy old guy bringing back a nostalgia trip that tends to hang around for a bit.

That's because he's a sad, old, broken down man.

The guys I mentioned were awesome more consistantly than HHH. HHH was BIG in 2000, he literally could step in shit and come up smelling like roses. Absolutely incredible that year, it was kind of ridiculous. But he was never TRULY the same after the quad injury. Mind you he still had classics but not with the same consistency and became a bit of a snooze fest and the E really began to decline. The one thing I credit him for, is he still gets that big league reaction when he enters the arena. I also hold it against him, because he hasn't given anyone the rub to get that same reaction. Given the fact he's running the company essentially, you think he'd want to create new stars. Literally all he'd have to do is have one of his 5 star classics which he is capable of and put any guy over clean. But he chooses not to.

HHH played the game better than everyone though, It's why he is where he is. He tickled the right ass, worked hard when it was most necessary and buried who he had to. Wrestling is a cut throat business and I do not have any ill-regard toward HHH for what he has done for himself, but he is not the quintessential team player like a Jake Roberts and a Randy Savage. Those 2 weren't kiss asses.. They were renegades and were from a different era.

What in the fuck are you on about? Did Triple H not make 2 of the biggest stars of the past 7 years in Batista and Randy Orton? Did Triple H not tap out to Benoit at WMXX? Triple H helped Jeff Hardy go from over to megastar during his SmackDown! run. You have got to be shitting me. Pull your head out of your fucking ass and realize it isn't 2003 anymore.

HHH was basically over because he was forced down our throats. He's like Cena. He got over because he just sucks so bad.

hahahahaha oh for fuck sake, HHH did not MAKE Randy Orton. In fact he fucking buried him and set his character back 2 years. Oh and their feud a few years back, it started hot, but then they shit all over it with the fucking retarded angle where HHH attacked him in his home then squashed him at Mania, yeah he really MADE Orton. And look where Orton is now, middling around doing jackshit.

Batista I'll give you but really it's not like Batista is some massive star.

Tapping out to Benoit after being in the crossface for about 5 minutes was decent of him, but hardly starmaking. Benoit already had his reputation. It was a nod of respect, and HHH knew he wouldn't be hurt by it.

How about what he did with CM Punk? Why did he go over Punk? Why was he even involved in that angle?

Or after he gave Sheamus a "rub" when Sheamus injured him, he came back and squashed him like a little bitch.

Or both times he's come back to face Taker at Mania and let everyone know that no other match and no other superstar matters other than him and Taker.

Oh and Jeff Hardy, a roll up victory after he spent most of the early 2000s squashing him.

Compare what HHH has done as a whole compared to a Flair, Hart or Michaels. Flair made Sting and Steamboat, Hart and Michaels both had a hand in making Austin.

HHH as made no icons. He's spent most of his time sort of existing. Had some great matches, but he is not some god of wrestling like he keeps telling you he is.

Imagine if CM Punk was given 45 minutes on the mic every single RAW, and 55 minute main events with a hell in a cell against the undertaker when he decided he wanted to. And the commentators kept telling the audience that he was the greatest force in pro wrestling EVER. And then kept getting put over clean, even when ratings were declining, and the decline was always blamed solely on his opponents.

You are fucking delusional. Do you even watch WWE? Batista was one of the hottest things in wrestling after his Triple H feud. Triple H helped cement Cena as "the man" at WM22. It made sense for Orton to lose to HHH at Mania 25 because of the storyline.

Triple H has won 2 matches since WrestleMania 26.

Triple H DEFINITELY made both Batista and Cena.

I don't think Triple H made Cena. He helped further Cena along, but made him? Also, for all the good Triple H did to Randy Orton, he did do some bad, too. Triple H going over Orton at Unforgiven 2004 was one of the dumbest booking decisions I can remember.

He was sinking as a World Champion and they pulled the plug when they realized he clearly wasn't ready. Based on Orton's DVD, I think it also had to do with his behavior at the time and the next couple of years after that (he didn't win a World Title for over 3 years).

The whole thing was very poorly written.

HHH pretty much generated X Pac heat during his long run.

Yes I am the one who is delusional. hahahaha. It's not like Hunter's a blood relative, I don't know why you hold onto him so dearly.

Triple H helped HBK through some tough times back in the late 90's, saved the DX concept back in 1998, he made the New Age Outlaws relevant, saved X-Pac's career (for a little bit), he made Batista, he made Randy Orton, he helped make Cena, he made Ric Flair relevant again.

He did not make Randy Orton. Cena was already over without HHH.

When Randy Orton won the Title and Triple H kicked him off Evolution, it gave Orton a huge push. So if he didn't make him, he certainly pushed him along.

When I think of a guy "making" someone, I don't think of taking a guy who's unknown and making him somebody, I think of the moment when that guy reaches a new level he hasn't previously been in.

Cena was over before Triple H, but it wasn't until his match with Triple H that you knew without a shadow of a doubt that he was THE top dog. If not then, you could argue it was the match with Michaels at 23.

This, to me, is the definition of making someone.

Same here.

The moment that "made" Cena, to me, would have been that night he defeated Chris Jericho with the duelling chants. I'm thinking it was SummerSlam 2005.

I followed both their careers. HBK in ring performance more than made up for his character. He just wowed you. I was wowed by the Rockers and frustrated on them not getting the titles. I rooted for them hard yall. When HBK sidekick Jennety I couldn't believe it. But Marty disappeared for sometime b4 their short fued so i only had Michaels to watch. And he was awesome. His innovation in matches changed the bar. It was like bringing ECW to WWF(not as brutal but highflying dares). The ladder match shocked me beyond belief.

Hitman I was more a fan of when he was part of the Heart foundation. With Jim the anvil and jimmy the mouth of the south. He never wowed me but he made me respect him as a wrestler. And when he started saying the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be, I believed him.

HBK wowed you
Hitman made u respect him

Really though? I love Chris Jericho. One of my all time favorites...but there's no way a win over him was bigger than a win over Triple H at the time...or pretty much ever, really.

I agree but I'm no fan of HHH either i still remember when he didn't speak english. I spent a few years a way and when i came back he had 5 title reigns. I find out about him and Steph and I'm like oooooh! Okay makes sense.

When didn't Triple H speak English? What'd he speak? :wtf:

He had a French aristocrat gimmick in WCW as "Jean-Paul Levesque".

Oh ok, got it. Never saw it. Thanks.

He spoke English though, but it was with a bad French accent. Mr. Smoke was probably high at the time.

I never for a second bought that Triple H was going to beat Cena. He was already "the guy" to me. It was just another match to further establish Cena. Not initially establish him. Cena had spent 280 days as WWE Champion in his first reign prior to facing Triple H at WrestleMania 22. He had beaten pretty much everybody and lost the title before winning it back from Edge in like three weeks.

He was the guy, and while I'm not saying that a win over Triple H didn't further Cena's career in any way, I certainly don't consider it the milestone that MADE Cena, so to speak. In fact, I'm finding it hard to think of one that did.

I would almost go with Cena's initial WWE Title win, or his match against Kurt Angle that led to the title win. What I find interesting about Cena's feud with Jericho, however, is that this is when the backlash against Cena started, and I think that has been a pretty definitive element of his reign at the top.

This.

Was this the Jericho match that led to Bischoff firing Jericho?

Without looking anything up, I remember Cena having PPV matches with Christian, Jericho, then Christian AND Jericho....then I think Angle stepped up and once ANGLE lost, people were like "OK, what the fuck". I still stand by Triple H here, but it was MAYBE Angle...definitely not Jericho, though.

Angle was after the Jericho incident because they wrestled at Unforgiven. Months later at New Years Revolution, Angle did a promo where he said he hated black people and Jesus because he could say anything he wanted because he was the best wrestler in the world and everybody respected him. Edge saved that PPV.

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Yeah, Cena completely destroyed Jericho which led to Jericho being fired by Eric Bischoff, which was quite the rub. I also remember hating it, because Cena always seemed pretty pro-corporate and friendly with Vince, which just seemed to play into the fan backlash that was starting to swirl up around him.

I had been critical of Cena's character since his Best of 5 Series with Booker T, however.

Ah, I remember that Elimination Chamber. Soon after, Kurt Angle was on SmackDown! as World Heavyweight Champion. They needed to give Kurt Daivari as a manager to try and get him some heat haha. Well, that's the only reason I can imagine they'd need anybody with Angle.

This was also the time they were trying to push Carlito and Chris Masters. The two worked together and made it right until the end of the match, but I think they turned on each other instead of making sure Cena was eliminated? If that is the case, that was pretty dumb booking. But I really miss Carlito & Masters, actually.

I was a huge Masters mark at the time and thought he might actually pull it off. Edge cashed in his MitB briefcase after that match, right?