My thoughts on Daniel Bryan after Hell In a Cell that isn't a spoiler now.
 

WWE buries their best talent. The guy is so f_ucking over with the WWE fans.

Unreal.

How many months ago was it, some people said it's okay Bryan got doesn't have the strap because it will give him even more time to get over and win at HIAC.

Bryan is so over it's ridiculous!!!! He should be your champion.

***No body's Thrilla, feel free to delete. F_ucking jerk off. F_uck you***

f_ucking

I wasn't sure if I could spell out curse words, KK.

You'd be surprised how many threads bitch ass thrilla has deleted. Wait, did I just curse?

This is a good thread.

I'M NEVAR GONA WATCH WWE EVAR AGEN!!1!!!

Just please, no cursing. This is a family forum. And no black on white or white on black jokes either. Bitches Thrilla hates that kind of stuff.

Lets get back to D Bryan and why he still doesn't have the strap.

Seems like a terrible move.

The guy is more over than DDP at WCW.

Tazz Dan, I was watching it live. I didn't post until after the PPV....

This should be merged with the Hell in the Cell thread.

No it isn't.

PPVs are considered to be "big enough" here that you're supposed to wait about 24 hours before posting results in thread titles.

So, I'm supposed to wait AFTER Raw to talk about Daniel Bryan getting the short end of things at HIAC? :wtf:

No, you discuss it in the thread you fucking idiot.

Or if you REALLY need to make a thread, don't blatantly give away the finish of the main event in the title.

i think all those concussions fucked up mr. harvard's common sense

Where is the WHAT THE FUCK? Spazz out post? You guys are slipping

Also ChrisHarvard we have spoiler tags for a reason

It's a live event, that is now over. The results were not taped to be replayed. There is a new champion tonight. It's not as though the matches will air momentarily, correct?

How long did you want to wait to know Nash defeated Goldberg at Starrcade?

How about instead of being a douche, you just accept what is common courtesy here.

I did not mean so SPOIL anything.

If I thought it was a spoil I would have put *SPOILER*. This shit already happened, on live television!!!!!

You only put *SPOILER* if it hasn't been broadcast yet. C'mon are you guys messing with me or what.

You need to remember that PPV's are regularly viewed around the world now, and there are a lot of international posters. Take me for example, I often watch the replay that starts at 7pm my time here because the live show starts around 11am and I'm usually at work. I still like to post between the end of the show and watching the replay, cause I'm a mod and all, and specifically avoid the said PPV thread because I don't want it spoiled until I watch it.

Again, courtesy not to give it away in a thread title.

clearly everyone watches everything at the same time

I understand.

And I WILL NOT ruin who won game 4 of the World Series.

But Raw is Jericho is tomorrow, also World Series game 5.

So, idk. Do whatever it is people that miss live shit do.

Didn't mean to spoil CK. Spoilers are for taped shows. I figured everyone was on board with HIAC tonight. Again, posted after the PPV. After the new champion.

It's just not how we do things around here. No one's mad, just don't do it again.

I was upset that Bryan got screwed. Again!

I never realized people watched shit a day later or whatnot.

And now you know.

And think about this, I watch a PPV on a Sunday LIVE here on a Monday sometimes. Damn time zones.

wait what Bryan didn't win the strap ohhhhh great, and I bet super cena won again ?

SPOILER TAGS, DICK!

I dunno, I'm pretty pissed.

I didn't even notice that he spoiled. Just noticed that he made a "hey look at me" thread instead of putting it in the PPV thread.

*insert long-winded expletive-laden rant here*

It could be worse, I avoided the wrestling forum, since you know PPVs shown at 1am here and I have work, so stuck to the casual forum, not the wrestling forum, only to have the Cena match spoiled in the 100K thread. By someone who posted about spoiler tags in this very thread no less.

You son of a bitch, I was about to watch that!!!

Just don't tell me what happens at the Main Event of Wrestlemania.

I totally hope Hogan and Mr. T prevail!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This killed me hahahaa

fucking hbk what a piece of garbage, that asshole used to be my favorite wrestler, but now i wanted bryan to literally just kill him.

[/mark]

Well it's 11 am Mondays/Tuesdays which is good if you don't work regular hours, but bad if you do...

I just hope Bob Orton's devastating broken arm has finally healed.

How could Chump Thrilla allow this thread to continue?

It's a known fact he is a censorship. But not the amusing heel angle like RTC.

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com...ichards/12.jpg

No Body's Thrilla is that 30-year old in college that still thinks he's the man because people know him.

He delete's Gertner's threads on the regular, the guy hates opposing views.

When you're NOBODYS THRILLA, you gotta get your kick's in somehow!!!! Hit up another frat party pal. Tell em' your 32 working on your BBA.
What a joke mod.

Tazz Dan is allowing this thread. I am obliged.

I like this ChrisHarvard guy. Finally someone with actual intelligence on this board.

WEEK TO FUCKIN WEEK BRO. SWAG.

Bottle service! I kiss the first one!

By the way. The rumor is that Bryan is officially out of the title picture. All of you that did the "let's just see where they go with this guys" dance that apologists insist on doing for every major incompetent angle, please take note how wrong you always are. Please. Where did the chase lead to? Where did the bastardizing of Summerslam lead to? What happened in that span of time that made Bryan a bigger star than he would've been had he just won at Summerslam when he was the hottest he had ever been?

He's on the backburner and is in Triple H's shadow right now which is what I predicted to happen from the start and got flamed to hell for it. Triple H did it to Punk. He just did it to Bryan. Now what? Where now?

There's also the rumour he'll be brought back into around the Rumble.

I'll have to wait a couple months to see where this goes before passing judgement.

Could argue the same with Orton considering he barely benefited from that feud and probably is going to be overshadowed again with the Big Show stuff now.

Daniel Bryan seems like the "no-brainer" pick to win the 2014 Royal Rumble at this point. He is also the sort of performer that seems to lend himself to winning it in spectacular marathon fashion -- perhaps even from #1. Triple H and Stephanie McMahon would do whatever they could to keep him from winning, but he runs away with the thing and becomes the challenger for the WWE Title at WrestleMania XXX, whether Triple H and Stephanie McMahon like it or not.

I could also see them doing a title unification at WrestleMania XXX, since there seems to be a no bigger place to clear the air as to who is truly the face of WWE. It would also make sense to do it in the aftermath of WrestleMania and try and squeeze out big buys for another PPV, but let's just say they do go ahead with that plan at WrestleMania.

2014 Royal Rumble Winner, Daniel Bryan, would possibly challenge Randy Orton. World Heavyweight Champion, John Cena, would also defend his World Title against someone. With The Undertaker vs. Brock Lesnar strongly rumored, Cena's opponent becomes far less clear. CM Punk trying to prove he is The Best in the World? The Rock in their WrestleMania rubber-match? Chris Jericho wanting to repeat as Undisputed Champion? Antonio Cesaro being the best thing ever? Who knows? Triple H would likely be a part of WrestleMania XXX in some in-ring fashion, so it could even be him. Cena would likely keep the World Title, let's say against CM Punk, because he's John Cena and should really headline WrestleMania XXX, while Daniel Bryan could win the WWE Title from Randy Orton. Cena vs. Bryan II (well, IV, or something like that), with the winner taking everything and becoming the absolute face of WWE. In my dream scenario, John Cena would turn heel here, shocking the world, and doing whatever he could to ensure he is the undisputed WWE World Heavyweight Champion, setting up an epic chase and rubber match between Cena and Bryan.

With a card that would likely feature The Undertaker vs. Brock Lesnar and could possibly have the blow-off to the Big Show/Triple H drama (with Hulk Hogan possibly being in Big Show's corner), you have a pretty epic and -- fuck you, I'll say it -- realistic WrestleMania card developing.

I'll say this though: If Daniel Bryan is dropped from a title picture permanently, it's a pretty bone-headed move. People were booing fucking HBK in their segment on RAW. Fucking HBK. Big Show moving into the title picture in an "all or nothing" fashion is fine for the moment, but it should only be so that Bryan can begin his trek to WrestleMania title glory.

long term booking seems to have created some outrage. that folks is a called a good work. calm down. they know he's money.

Destor drops some knowledge.

it's a thing i do ;)

Oh, Daniel Bryan vs. Shawn Michaels would be beautiful to build to, as well. It's kind of weird that HBK went heel with everything. Make no mistake about it, HBK actually turned on RAW. He was also advertised for a Miz TV segment on SmackDown, but "left the building." Huge heel move that's supposed to drive the casual fans against HBK even more. Why turn him if he's not going to be a part of WWE programming going forward?

These are questions to consider while Daniel Bryan and CM Punk have been targets of Bray Wyatt, who is representing "the Devil." Think about this.

The Devil goes beyond The Wyatt Family and Bray's usual agenda. The Devil is holding a man who usually takes hostages, hostage. The Devil is wielding an undefeated Superstar as a weapon against two great wrestlers who have bucked the system and performed contrary to expectations and projections. The Devil will reveal themselves before WrestleMania XXX.

#followthebuzzards #bestforbusiness

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I mean, since they're already doing Big Show 3:16, it wouldn't surprise me to see Hunter under the robe this time instead of Vince.

Only problem is that nobody currently in the booth would be able to top JR's reaction.

Destor I now see the reasoning for the forceful nature in which you made me change my name...we share the same views.

Someone please explain to me how D-Bry moving to an angle with the Wyatts and CM Punk is in any way a down grade? (besides it not being for the WWE title) ONE dude can be the champ, that doesn't mean everyone else isn't important. He has established a strong enough fan base that they can move him to a different angle for a month or two without making him look weak while also having the ability to hit reset and clean up the Authority angle a bit before Mania season...this is a good thing.

He will be back in the title hunt by Rumble, guaranteed. This is called character development, and I think this will lead to nothing but good things for Bryan in the long run. They know he's money, and we know he's money. His run will come.

Also, I dont think this angle is "incompetent" as much as it is over your head. Noid makes good points about the references to the Devil that Bray is making. Kane turning the mask over to Steph and pledging to do her bidding on his first Raw since being abducted also ties in with all of this.

The "Devil" and whoever forced Kane's recent actions are, I believe, the same person. This person is also, obviously assisting The Authority, ultimatley tying D-Bry AND CM Punk back to The Authority and the WWE title by Rumble/Mania after the Wyatt wrinkle. If this is the case, they are REALLY getting into deeper and more complex storylines, which I am ALL about.

No-showing Miz TV is going to generate so much heat.

Personally, forcing them to cancel MizTV is the biggest face move since Dusty's "Hard Times" promo.

"MY HAND IS TOUCHING YOUR HAND!!"

As awesome as it would be for the WWE to actually be creating deeper, more complex storylines, I've had that feeling so many times in the past only for it to be dashed with moronic reveals and go-nowhere storylines that I have to take the "wait and see" approach.

And in my opinion, they have completely dropped the ball on Bryan.

And with good reason, the anonymous Raw GM immediatley comes to mind. However, I've noticed A LOT of positive changes since Trips has been given more control, and I really believe he has the WWE's best interest in mind with every decision that's made. The developement center and NXT are great examples of Trips looking to the future. Calling up NXT guys with a set plan of action for their first few months, getting rid of scripts and working off bullet points, giving the guys more of a chance to get themselves across in their character.

He isn't stupid, and the product has been getting better and deeper with a noticable effort at using the younger/hungrier guys in bigger rolls (The Shield, Big E., Cody, Bryan, Punk, Bray, Ryback, Big Show, Axel, Miz, the whole tag division, etc.). I'm hoping that with all of this, comes the deeper and more intricate stories...I guess a wait and see approach is more intelligent, but I choose to believe in my educated guesses (and The Shield), and keep enjoying the product.

Daniel's chase for the title is over. SummerSlam buyrates came in and they were not good. That is why he lost at HIAC and why they are moving him down the card to face the Wyatts.

This goes back to when I called jerichos return after the cryptic promos a bust. They built this aqua up only for Jericho to come back weirdly and lose the rumble. It did nothing for him. He could have just showed up at the rumble and had the same angle and heat that he had. Until he turned on punk later he was just idling.

When you build something with no payoff or a different payoff, it's not wrong to get upset or call it out. Just because it's "long term" doesn't mean it is good or makes sense.

Imagine if "the Devil" turned out to be The Undertaker? He's pulled the string of guys in the past. The Wyatt Family would be like his new Ministry of Darkness, with Kane also being influenced by his half-brother to assist The Authority.

Taker vs. Bryan at WrestleMania XXX -- a war between The Authority and a new movement.

Taker is the obvious choice as 'The Devil', but booking Taker as the heel at Mania vs. Bryan would not be easy. If you want Bryan to look strongest at Mania, fighting Taker would not be my first choice. HBK, Punk or Cena would work better for D-Bry I think.

A new 'Corporate Ministry' (with the old theme, of course) would be awesome, and having Trips, Taker, Kane and HBK involved with it would make sense...the old generation and their hand picked future stars vs. the 'faces' of the new generation. Add in the Wyatts, The Shield (for now) and Orton and thats a super badass heel stable.

That in turn sets up some GREAT mania matches. With possibilities like HBK vs Bryan, Cena vs. Taker (Cena enters as world champ, making it almost impossible to predict the winner) The Wyatts vs Golden Rhodes, Punk vs. Orton for the WWE strap, Trips vs Big Show and maybe a freshly turned Roman Reigns attempts to take out the corporate monster Kane while Rollins and Ambrose battle over the IC title.

To me, this is the long term booking that SHOULD be going on right now. The seeds have been planted and the characters involved are more than capable of making this work, I just hope there is half the creativity in the back as there is on this forum.

Where now? How about Wrestlemania, you big fat lady?

You sound as much of a dickbag as Krispy right now. You're a 30 year old man going "nyaaaa nyaaaa told you so!" over an Internet rumor that can't be proven one way or the other.

Even if you do end up being right, so what? Who cares if people like to give them the benefit of the doubt and see where things go? Better than shitting on things before they get started. What a sad and depressing way to watch wrestling.

If this all upsets you so much that you feel the need to make a post like that, then maybe you should just stop watching wrestling for a while.

Go watch NASCAR or something. Can't imagine that being this stressful for you.

Huh...Did Trips do this to Punk before or after his 434 DAY TITLE RUN?!?!?!

If thouest rememberest correctly I said "see where it goes but they'll probably blow it" and they did. It is actually hilarious that he's in HHH's shadow. It's like Hunter has no actual self awareness. He's like a parody of himself.

Fignuts, you are drastically over reacting, take a cheeeeeeeel peeeeeel my brotha.

"You big fat lady" :lol:

Daniel Bryan vs. "Director of Operations" Kane would be tremendous. They should run that match at TLC to close out the year. Daniel Bryan can beat Kane and then move towards the WWE Title picture in time for WrestleMania XXX.

Fuck you whiney faggot penis

"You're living in a dream world, Neo."

I am a witness to this.

Narc called it back at Summerslam (I, along with many others, disagreed with Narc), but Narc was pretty spot on with his comments.

I honestly didn't think the WWE were this effin' stupid, but I was wrong. They really ARE that effin' stupid. :nono:

I truly hope that they have a legit long term plan for Daniel Bryan here where he ends up winning the title at Wrestlemania, because they're REALLY booking Bryan moronically thus far.

How the WWE have completely shit the bed with Bryan, Ziggler, etc., is completely beyond me.

Hopefully, you're right.

At this stage, it would be a huge mistake for the WWE to not have Daniel Bryan win the rumble.

Bryan needs to win the Rumble, and needs to go over clean against whoever at Mania.

They arent going to pull the trigger with Bryan because of the low SummerSlam buyrate.

The odds on favorite for the WWE Championship is a WWE Champion vs World Heavyweight Champion match at WrestleMania; probably Orton vs Cena, or, if we're lucky, CM Punk vs Cena, which would be amazing.

Bryan's got no shot. His main event run is over for now. One day they'll make him the WWE Champion and give him some kind of a run, but not heading toward the biggest WrestleMania of all time.

Isn't every Mania the "biggest of all time"?

I've been against Punk vs Cena at WrestleMania (at least last year) because I don't believe WrestleMania's main event should be the same match that main evented countless minor PPVs. They should always reach for that "Rock vs Cena" level epic main event.

If they were to unify the titles though, given their history and assuming you've kept them apart for over a year, I wouldn't mind Cena vs Punk one bit.

As for Bryan... I love the guy. He just isn't a WrestleMania main event type guy. He should be always on the cusp of the main event putting on stellar matches, maybe even bringing the IC Title back to near main event status. He shouldn't be headlining WrestleMania though.

The problem is there are only so many damn "dream matches" you can do. Ideally, their goal should be to have characters so over/interesting that they can main event a WrestleMania without needing to rely on part-timers in the main event.

I said "Rock vs Cena" level epic main event. That doesn't mean they have to use part-timers. Finding a way to make that big of a main event with your full-time guys would be acceptable, too. Outside of Cena, they've failed to make anyone big enough though. Cena is literally the only guy on the full-time roster that you can pencil into the main event of WrestleMania and THEN try to figure out who the opponent will be.

Cena/Punk could easily be that level. Those 2 have yet to have a bad match and have yet to have a match without a shitload of momentum/hype going into it. Imagine if they had a 2 1/2 month build into the "biggest event of all time". The only reason Punk isn't that guy yet is because he has yet to be the top match at Mania.

They've had matches with no hype/momentum. Throwing your money matches on random Raw episodes does that.

I think Punk's probably the closest to being a Cena-type and be able to headline WrestleMania without a bigger star there to draw but I'm not sold on the fact that he could hit that level even with one under his belt. It's not the instant catapult to super-stardom it may have been at one point. Ask The Miz.

No one will ever be "that guy" if the presumption is correct in panicing over buyrates. They'll keep booking potential main eventers in a "why should I give a shit about them?" kind of way while trying to hotshot the next new face into credible world dominance in the span of two PPV's.

Again, I point out that both the storyline face of the company AND the literal face of the company (Orton and Cena, respectively) were both seen as an "experiment", and kind of pushed out of neccessity. They didn't have the cast of reliable top-teir talent anymore either from injury or pursuing other interests.

And it's funny when you control a huge chunk of the perception of a character in how "good" they are. When people talk about being marks for a win/loss record, it pretty much means obsessing over getting wins, but if you're trying to get someone over to make them appear *better*, you'd think WINS would accomplish that. Face wins is final triumph. Dirty heel wins cement them as heels. Clean heel wins proves they're as good as they say, and make you want to see him dethroned all the more. Going back to Punk's magical 434, in with hindsight and the announce team trying to put that over now make it seem like a bigger deal than when it was happening. When it was happening, you had your champion- self proclaimed "best in the world"- losing clean in non title matches on a regular basis. 20 years ago in the same situation, if Punk even appeared on TV outside of a canned promo, he was going to squash a jobber to solidify his claim, or at least put on a show with someone up the card but ultimately come out on top. Help from Heyman would be optional, but he would get the win. Punk losing all the time in his reign plants the seeds of "how the hell is this guy champion?", and nobody wants to see a hole where there's difinitive doubt. The same can be said for Axel's re-christening and IC run. His backdoor victores at the beginning were at least interesting because they were victories. He's been booked like a baffoon from jump instead of becoming somewhat of a badass force to be reconed with. Instead everyone's like "why is this guy a title holder"? Simply having the Intercontinental Championship doesn't make him instantly better, he's supposed to make the title better, and being made to look like a chump all the time doesn't do that in the least... something WWE has been pretty bad about for awhile (let's throw Title/MitB on someone and see if it gets them over) instead of being a stamp of approval, it just becomes a rotating gimmick to unsuccessfully try to get the next guy over.

What's so disheartening about the Bryan situation is that timeless tale that many wrestlers have shot about over the years about how the face chases and chases and then that moment where he finally wins. They didn't deliver on the "finally wins" that's supposed to come. It makes it appear the heel was telling the truth. That's not what people want; the villain to be honest in the end. Repeating Bryan is a "B+ player", and then making good on just being a "B+ player", makes everyone believe he is, in fact, that B+ player, and doesn't deserve to be there. It was the same with Christian when he started the "one more match" thing, yet he kept blowing all his opportunites. After about the 5th/6th/7th loophole into a title opportunity, everyone is believing that he couldn't get it done and no one wanted to see him try anymore.

Meanwhile, trying to strap rockets to the asses of people like Ryback (throwing the hoss thing to the side) who wasn't even around long enough or been through enough angles to have some character development depth, is suddenly supposed to jump to the top of the mountain while he was still pretty vanilla. Roman Reigns and Big E have the same issue at this moment with all the speculation swirling about them getting impending pushes. That same issue that plagued guys like Zeke Jackson, Heidenrich, and Chris Masters.

You'd think they would have learned that lesson with The Rock. WWE tried to force him down everyone's throats when there was nothing to him yet. All we knew he was yet another guy of Samoan lineage and muscles. He may have had "the look", but most of the time, nobody CARES if they have the look and nothing else. There's a reason why EVERYONE doesn't have the success of an Undertaker, Bill Goldberg, or a Brock Lesnar. Most of the time, people see it, are in awe, and then go "okay... and now what? Yeah, he's big and muscular like everyone else, so what makes him different/special?" The Rock had to go through all the "Die Rocky, Die", and joining The Nation and IC battle with SCSA and Hunter and The Corporation to flesh out that character... for people to be "familiar" with him; for him to gain the "and then what".

All the while, the under/midcard is littered with people with TONS of "and then what", and all they truly need is the machine behind them for longer than 8 weeks at a time. Instead of following through on guys that have been red hot WHEN they are red hot (Zack Ryder was insanely over in spite of barely being on TV; people were CHANTING for Dolph Ziggler while he was still a heel; etc;), they're off chasing the next giant nobody will remember. For a company that is looking to create "larger than life superstars", they seem to get hung up on it being literal physical build instead of people who emotionally connect with the ticketholders.

Daniel Bryan has THE WHOLE WORLD going "YES! YES! YES!", but you know, he's not "that guy"...

You said yourself Zack Ryder was insanely over, too. So does that mean he could have been the face of the company/headlined WrestleManias?

Also, I'd say Orton and Cena were both kinda groomed to be the next big thing. I don't think either was simply an "experiment" or "pushed out of necessity". Everyone was picking Cena and Orton as being the stars of the future pretty early on and both had their journey. Neither was hotshotted out of nowhere.

Other than that, I'd agree with pretty much everything else. As for chasing the next giant, they've even kinda failed at that. Ryback had the crowd on his side AND was everything Vince usually looks for... and they dropped the ball in epic fashion.

The idea that wins/losses don't matter in wrestling is ridiculous. And yes, having your champion lose on a regular basis is also ridiculous. Just scraping the barrel of the glaring flaws in WWE booking logic that holds them back from getting people over. Plus the fact that the ENTIRE card outside of the main event is basically treated like meaningless filler for the 2 1/3 hours of the show that isn't devoted to the main event. Those guys are supposed to be your future. And you're gonna spend years and years not doing anything remotely interesting with them and suddenly when you realize you're in desperate need of a main eventer, you're gonna try to cancel out all those years of nothingness and make people think they matter in an instant. It's horrific booking.

All I'm going to say is this:

They're going to need someone to take that top spot. And sooner rather than later. Not because it's time to turn Cena heel, believe it or not.

I don't know if Cena is going to be healthy enough to be on top by this time next year. Show has to be on his last legs, as far as his career goes. Same with Henry. Punk is supposed to be retiring here in the next couple years. At current rate of consumption, the top of the card would be Orton, Del Rio, and Bryan.

Cena is the last guy I can recall that they really did a good job building toward the main event. His first Mania, he gets a solid victory over The Big Show for the US Championship. He was built up over the rest of the year, turned face around Survivor Series time, and then got his big victory over JBL at Mania 21. The rest is history.

Why can't this be done again? I feel like the WWE just doesn't have the focus or the attention span to let a guy evolve over the course of a year as they build him toward the top. Bryan was insanely over at WrestleMania 28 - and they crushed him in that horrible loss to Sheamus. The next year he's tag teaming with Kane. This year - who knows. Probably a match against Kane or something equally stupid.

He could've at least put up a decent fight against Sheamus (as he did one month later at Extreme Rules), and if they had built him right and continued to push him over the course of the next year, I have no doubt he would've been ready for a huge match at Mania 29 - possibly a WWE Championship win. The problem, of course, is that both of those Manias were plagued with part-timer returns, taking that opportunity away from him.

Guys like HBK, Stone Cold, The Rock, Triple H, and even Cena and Orton never really had this problem. There weren't major part-timers who could come back and steal the spotlight. Even when the nWo came back for Mania X-8, they still gave the top spot to Chris Jericho, who rightfully deserved it. When Hogan faced Vince at Mania XIX, they put him in the right spot - beneath the rightful main event of Kurt Angle/Lesnar.

As much as Rock/Cena, Undertaker/Triple H and HBK, and Lesnar/Triple H helped boost WrestleMania buyrates in the short term, it's pulled the rug out from underneath the up and comers in a big way, and I think in the next few years we're going to really start to see the negative effects of this in major ways.

How could HBK have ever made it to the top spot if he had to take the back seat to a Hulk Hogan or Macho Man Randy Savage return at WrestleMania 12? Or if they had decided to put Ultimate Warrior in the main event against Bret or Diesel or Undertaker (any of these matches arguably a "bigger draw" that HBK/Hart Iron Man)?

I also think that Money in the Bank has had a huge effect on the build of new superstars as well. Before, a superstar's road to the World/WWE Championship usually culminated at WrestleMania. A Mania victory for a superstar's first world championship was a huge moment - one that made superstars into mega stars. Hogan body slamming Andre the Giant (Hogan was already champion, I know, but this was still his "legendary moment"), Macho Man winning the tournament, Warrior pinning Hogan clean, Bret defeating Yokozuna, HBK winning the Iron Man, Austin defeating HBK, Benoit beating HBK and Triple H, and Cena/Batista victories at Mania 21... these are moments that made superstars into legends (Benoit obviously fucked his up).

But since the inception of Money in the Bank, a lot of guys have cashed in for their first world titles in cheap fashion. RVD is an exception, and his win arguably was his career defining moment and was perfect to happen at ONS2. Aside from him, I pose these questions:

- Would Edge have been a greater superstar if he had won his first WWE Championship at WrestleMania? How much would that moment have solidified him as a true superstar? His career is the best to look at since he's retired. He never got his WrestleMania moment.

- Would CM Punk have benefitted from waiting a couple more years into his WWE career to win his first World Championship at WrestleMania, as opposed to a cheap cash in on Edge after Batista put him through the announce table? Another superstar who has yet to have his WrestleMania moment, and who is arguably the 2nd biggest superstar on the WWE's full time roster.

- Did the MITB cash in do ANYTHING at all for Jack Swagger? Or The Miz? Or Dolph Ziggler? Without MITB, I really don't think Swagger or Miz would've been anywhere near the major titles. The same could be said for Alberto Del Rio. Ziggler is one of those guys who would've benefitted from a big WrestleMania 1st WWE or World Title win. He is now floundering after cashing in after Mania 29.

- I made my point about Daniel Bryan in the post above - MITB gave him his 1st World Championship, but what has that really meant to his career? What did he accomplish after cashing in MITB for the World Title that he couldn't have accomplished as US or IC Champion? Where would he be now if he had been built up after Mania 28 (when the "Yes!" chants really started to take off), leading to his first WHC victory at Mania 29 against an established heel?


Maybe WWE is actually realizing that MITB hurts their superstars more than it helps them in the long run. Maybe that's why the MITB for the WWE Championship was made up of all former WWE Champions this year. Maybe that's why Sandow lost his cash-in (might end up being the best thing that ever happened to him - now he has to EARN his first WHC or WWE Championship victory - like the superstars of old).


Lots of thoughts here. Kind of just rambling now. Not even drunk. Just super tired.

I'd argue Edge spearing Foley through a flaming table would count as a "WrestleMania moment".

Fair enough, Steele. But my question remains the same.

And I'm of the opinion that Edge beating John Cena for the WWE Championship at WrestleMania (even if he won it with a little help) would've been a bigger "WrestleMania moment" than his match against Foley.

Cena/HHH was more important to Cena's career at that point.

Not everybody can be made at WrestleMania, and Edge was the top heel at that point anyway. Heels don't win at WrestleMania unless they are gods (ie. Austin and HHH).