State Your Case: Why do think TNA and WWE are good/bad?
 

We all have are opinions about the product of WWE and TNA. Why do you believe WWE is good or bad? Why do you believe TNA is good or bad? #StateYourCase

These are the vibes I get from Both Companies:

WWE: A solid company that, if they ever wanted/had to get serious, could be the greatest program with their current level of talent. There are maybe 3 people in TNA that are legit on par with the best of WWE's regulars. Then, they could drop someone far and above anyone at a moments notice. Main problem is, they can't/have no reason to get serious.

TNA: A decent company that, if they wanted to get everything going in the right direction, could actually be a decent contender to WWE. Main problem is, they are more of a tax write-off for Panda Energy and Spike as is, and make horrible mistakes that they cannot really afford to make at this stage of the game.

I agree with the negatives I have read about TNA. I want them to succeed, but they really need to keep things fucking simple and utilize their talent better. Some of their decisions over the past three years have been really bone-headed and cost them a lot of ground, to the point where I think a new legit promotion could very easily usurp #2 from them with the right resources and minds behind it.

WWE

Good: history, prestige, some of the Ppvs are highlights on the pro wrestling and sporting calendar e.g. wm, rr, sslm etc., iconic stars who have been made at and or wrestled in the promotion, they defined wrestling, their stars transcended the profession and popular culture.

Bad: post the demise of WCW and ECW, they've not had any legitimate competition and hence the brand and quality of the programming has suffered, questionable bookings, recent trend behind the scenes to focus on big muscly guys rather than focussing on who can wrestle or perform the best, way too commercialised with all the stupid sponsorship spots and ridiculous BS campaigns like Be a start etc. also not keen on their very vocal political opinions particularly the whole hoo hah regarding Bin Laden's death. The way they celebrated was as if wwe themselves had apprehended and killed the man. It was a watershed moment I agree but nothing to celebrate, can't help but feel it desecrated the memory of all those killed in 9/11, soldiers killed and innocent civilians killed.

In trying to be PG and make 'funny' story lines they've ended up being controversial e.g. Poking fun at Jerry Lawler's heart attack even with his permission, the Zeb Colter skits though funny come across as xenophobic and racist, JBL's infamous skit on the 'Mexican border'.

Comments being made 'out of character' e.g. HHH slating Jericho, Edge and RVD as never being big stars but one could argue all three of those were much bigger stars at their peak and even still than HHH ever was or ever will be. Entertainment or not WWE needs to exercise a degree of professionalism and respect towards its stars but these people are hardly the sort that fall under the category of civilised, moral individuals.

Lack of a decent divas division in that most matches tend to be 8 person tag teams lasting barely three minutes.

The fact they seem to dance to the tune of their top stars I.e. The likes of undertaker, lesnar etc picking and choosing when they appear rather than making a regular spot. The whole point of wwe programming is for regular consistency. I get he impression these big stars consider themselves to be mercenaries and wwe management are happy to treat them as such.

Certainly the programming has died in quality post 2002 maybe 2005 at the latest.

JBL's skit was way before the PG push, and Zeb Colter's whole gimmick is that he is a xenophobe/racist.

Jericho, Edge, and RVD were never remotely close to the level of star Triple H is/was. Also, it's a fucking work.

TNA

Good: a place to see old stars like Sting and Angle relive their glory days, slightly better treatment of the female wrestlers though the only real decent star they have is Gail Kim, Austin Aries, they seem to have gone one step better than WWE with regards to the foreign markets e.g. Actually going to broadcast live impact and a proper ppv from the uk imminently as opposed to some cheap knockoff uk only ppv. The uk fans are getting the real deal. Wwe though doing smack down and raw in the uk the quality of the shows are horrendous. TNA in that respect try to roll out the big guns by sending all their stars over with the exception of Jeff hardy who due to previous convictions is barred from entering the uk. Their fan interaction events are quite well organised and much cheaper and easier to participate in than wwe's but that's for obvious reasons I.e. Wwe being more popular.


Bad: pretty much everything else, the quality of the shows are crap be it the Ppvs or tv shows, the fact they don't show any of the shows live on uk tv shows they are still behind in some respects, their roster except for one or two wrestlers is terrible and the only reason they are still in existence is because of the likes of AA, Sting, Angle and the fact they managed to keep Hogan and AJ Styles for as long as they did. The current TNA reminds me of the WCW Russo years which was ultimately worse than cancer though still a step up from Russo WCW. Dixie Carter is like a headless chicken, she knows nothing about the wrestling business or even then, how to run a business effectively and losing Hogan, Jarret and AJ Styles from the company was a huge blow, even RVD. The fact the likes of RVD, Foley and even old man Ric Flair would go back to WWE just shows how bad TNA is. There is no atmosphere at the shows other than the uk events. Perhaps this is due to the fact they spent far too long in Universal and were therefore attracting casual fans rather than genuine fans. If TNA wanted to make a decent profit rather than going on the road in the US or saying at universal, maybe just jump ship and decamp in the UK for a while? No doubt they would sell out arenas across the country despite it's small size but rather have small sold out arenas full of die hard passionate fans than the crapheads you see week in week out on Impact.

As I said before the quality of the show, the story lines, the rosters, the commentary, I mean Mike Tenay how is he still working I this business? He was worse than Schavione but at least he worked in the WWE albeit for five minutes. Honestly if it wasn't for TNA or maybe ROH being in existence, would this man even have a job?

All in all TNA is just crap but more so because of how Carter is running it into the ground. I'd hate to see it get sold to the WWE because then WWE will get even worse by buying out the competition. They need to be run by people who know and love wrestling. Sure it will never top the WWE but nothing wrong being a solid alternative but at the moment it isn't even that. It feels cheap like being served fake lobster meat on plastic plates with plastic cutlery.

Tbh wrestling has never been the same since WCW went out of business. The last decent match in either company in my opinion was Rock v Hogan at wrestlemania 18. By decent I mean a truly memorable iconic match that nobody who attended or watched the vent would ever forget and the fact I'm talking about it some 12 years later and that rock and hogan would mention the tenth anniversary of the match on their twitter accounts goes to show how great it was. There have been some good matches since then but nothing quite on that level.

HBK/Taker?

You seem mad that the Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars ever ended and refuse to give wrestling a honest opportunity to entertain you.

Really? Jericho was first undisputed champion, big star in both the WCW and WWE wrestled the best of his generation, was pretty damn popular and better technically in the ring and on the mic than HHH.

Edge worked his way up the company and held pretty much every title in the company and was accomplished as both a tag and singles competition and prettying damn popular before his career being cut short through injury. Again a better technical wrestler than HHH.

RVD again another better technical wrestler and was top of the tree at both ECW and WwE, poor mic skills.

What has HHH really done of any note? Being part of DX only worked because HBK just like NWO only worked because of Hogan. Nobody would have batted an eyelid had HBK never agreed to the storyline. It's the people he wrestled that made HHH a big star e.g. Rock, Foley, Undertaker, Ultimate Warrior, HBK, Ric Flair, Goldberg, Hogan, Cena.........

Also as for the rant being a work that's not what Jericho and Edge or RVD thought when questioned on twitter. Jericho was legitimately pissed off as was RVD.

HHH was only ever a big star for being in the right place at the right time and the fact he screws McMahon's daughter only consolidates that point further. Yes HHH is/was a good wrestler but let's not get carried away he was never outstanding or legendary. Where's the skill in hitting someone with a fucking sledgehammer and then kneeing them in the face? He had the look of a decent wrestler but it's not like wrestling would have not survived without him or not been a better business. He's more in the class of someone like say Lex Luger, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Paul Wight, Vader, Yokozuna, Sgt Slaughter I.e. People where decent enough but never actually outstanding and made as much impact on wrestling as a fart in the Grand Canyon.

I can name loads of people who were much bigger stars than HHH could ever claim to be:

Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin, Ric Flair, Macho Man, John Cena, CM Punk, Sting, HBK, Goldberg, Undertaker, Mick Foley, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guererro, Kurt Angle, RVD, Edge, Chris Jericho, Batista, Iron Sheikh, Bob Backlund, Bret Hart, heck I would even rank Ron Simmons, Booker T, British Bulldog and even Chris Benoit above Triple Hl of whom were better wrestlers, in ring performers and had more memorable matches than HHH.

HHH is only where he is because he got lucky and was friends and fuck buddies with the right people. If anything I have far less respect for him now due to his questionable booking strategies behind the scenes and if rumours are to be believed on this website his backstage persona is no different to his character onscreen.

A work or not he is deluded if he thinks he is in any position to criticise any star past or present for not being the top dog when in all honesty he was never THE MAN either.

End of rant.

BOBO PUTTING IT ALL OUT THERE, PUTTING IT ALL ON THE LINE!!

HOW WILL JAMES STEELE RESPOND?!

TUNE IN NEXT POST

HBK/Taker....maybe but again both were already past their heyday....well HBK had slowed down a lot.

I wouldn't say I'm mad the wars ended but there has been a noticeable dip in the quality of WWE's programming and let's be honest that isn't a surprise, what benchmark do they have to compare themselves with? At least when WCW was thriving they were kept on their toes and determined to produce something damn good. It's not like WWE is going to lose out to TNA or ROH any time soon?

They can carry producing any old crap like getting the muppets to appear on Raw and still sell tickets......what alternatives are there.

And if the attitude era etc was all a thing of the best then why would the WWE be making such a big deal out of old school Raw? If the here and now was so good then let's just focus on this. Out with the old in with the new.

The fact they have to bring back stars who had moved on from wrestling like Batista, Brock Lesnar and even Rocky himself just goes to show the WWE are fresh out of creativity.

Also I don't see the harm in showing a bit of hardcore violence and a little blood here and there and still maintain the PG rating. After all it's still sports entertainment and in most countries is shown on sports channels. Boxing is watched by both young and old and is arguably more violent and blood prone, heck even Rugby is violent.

I don't see how they disapprove of that because it isn't PG but then portray racist and xenophobic characters like Zeb Colter or the references Jericho made to alcohol and drug abuse in his Cm punk feud which you could argue one would not expect in a 'family friendly' show.

OK MAYBE NEXT POST

There is no way Chris Jericho, Edge or Rob Van Dam were as big a star as Triple H. They were each very, very over and had amazing careers, but Triple H was arguably the #2 guy in the company at one point while Austin was injured. He and Rock were a huge part of carrying the WWE through during its most profitable period. Guys like Edge and Chris Jericho were extremely over in the mid-card and gaining momentum, but it was Triple H's show.

I have to respectfully disagree. HHH may have had the main event status but it sure as hell not on merit I.e. Based on his skill, technique, charisma etc.

He had the look of a decent star in the vein of Hogan or Rock but he didn't have their star power. Now I'm not saying edge and Jericho were in the same category as Hogan but they were not too far off the mark and in any case had a better skill set than Hunter could have ever acquired.

Like I said where was the skill in hitting people in the head with a sledgehammer or a knee to the face? DX only worked because of HBK and HHH only got places in the company through marriage and before that the Kliq.

It's not like millions of kids worldwide were tuning in to watch Triple H and pester their parents for his merchandise like they did with Hogan, Austin, Rock and now Cena.

I never said HHH wasn't a big star he was, but I don't consider him ever being the face if the WWE I.e. The one person who transcended the company whom everyone knew. People today who know nothing about wrestling can at least name Hogan and Rock and then at a stretch Ric Flair, Steve Austin and John Cena. Triple H was never in that category and neither were Edge or Jericho or RVD. Hence why I thought it was rich of HHH to criticise them for not being the face of the WWE in the manner of say Hogan or Rock when HHH never really enjoyed that sort of fame either.

Keep in mind that we're not talking about skill level here. We're talking about star power. Being in the main event and having that star power, regardless of the reasons for that, is certainly pertinent to the conversation. Triple H is closer to being in that talked about group than Edge, Jericho or RVD ever were. If you know wrestling, then you'd no doubt have a lot of respect for all of those men, but you're unlikely to have heard of them otherwise. Triple H has popped up within the mainstream culture occasionally.

My argument against HHH perhaps came out wrong. The point I was making was that in spite of his comments about those three, they were all better in ring performers than HHH and whether it was staged or not.....tpww seemed to suggest it wasn't staged re their reports about Jericho and RVD being legitimately pissed off, even if those guys were never the big face of the company, neither was HHH.

HHH and his band of hardcore fanatics may think he was some sort of icon who transcended the pro wrestling business but as I said before, they're all deluded if they think he has/had anywhere near the sort of fame or respect that Hogan, Rock, Flair or Austin and Cena enjoyed and still continue to do so. Heck I would even include Bret Hart on that list.

HHH was nothing more than B grade superstar at best.

Some might say oh but Motörhead did a theme song for him but let's be honest Motörhead aren't exactly great are they? I mean even in their homeland their famous for little other than Ace of Spades which they might use in the odd motorcar or racing advert ever now and again.

Yes I am not a triple h fan as you can tell but my dislike for him has intensified over the last 12 months or so and especially given the fact he never replies to my tweets.


Oh and one more criticism to add about WWE I thought their brief three second tribute to Nelson Mandela was pathetic and disgusting. They go on so much about their bullshit be a star campaign and here is the greatest example of an individual who fought against bullying and discrimination and they gave him a lousy three second graphic three quarters of the way through the show? When bin laden died they paraded around like they had killed him themselves and even did some crappy and cheesy intro akin to the liberation of the free world.

Now I'm not saying they had any obligation to pay tribute to Nelson Mandela, they didn't, it's a wrestling show. But if they were going to do so they should have at least done it properly and given the man the proper respect he deserved which would have constituted more than a three second graphic. A few seconds longer at the start oft he show with a Voiceover commentary by McMahon perhaps linking it in with Be A Star would have been appropriate.

But aside from that the NFL, NBA and Premier League, FIFA, IOC all paid tribute on their websites and social media outlets and given WWE's global reach especially in South Africa, I'm surprised they did so little.

Heck even TNA carried a tribute on their facebook and Twitter accounts.

Of course but can any of us truly say that HHH was ever that big star he claims to be on and off screen like say Hogan was?

But again I argue that HHH only got where he was because of who he knew rather than that he was an exceptionally talented in ring performer and had the star power to make an impact on the profession and beyond. If he wasn't married to Stephanie McMahon then right now Triple H would either be a mid carder, at TNA or retired running a gym back in British Columbia or wherever he is from in Canada.

Everything the likes of Hogan, Austin, Flair and Cena earned was on merit, even the Rock though he is third generation but his father and grandfather were hardly of any distinction and being non white, Samoan/African American, arguably Rock had more barriers to overcome.

HHH because of his association with HBK, the Kliq and then working his way into the McMahon family, that is the only reason he enjoyed the superstar status he parades around like a baboon's bottom. God forbid his marriage ever breaks down with Stephanie I'd love to see the consequences.


Also you mention HHH popping up in mainstream culture....where?

Not according to various sites including this one and the wrestlers' twitter accounts themselves. Is that not the reason why both Jericho and RVD have been reluctant to return?

Then we have this;
http://www.tpww.net/2013/10/update-m...-hs-raw-promo/

So it seems that even tpww speculate whether or not it was genuine or not and in any case it ruffled feathers.

That fact is I maintain those three were better wrestlers and more talented than triple h could ever have aspired to be but triple h was no bigger a star than them.

since we're sharing links
http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=125579

Fair point but I was mainly responding to the other user's questioning my disdain for HHH and indeed my disdain for HHH and his involvement in the behind the scenes day to day running of the WWE is my main reason for hating the WWE I that respect so in a sense it ties in.....

But taking the thread back on track, another bad point about the wwe is the distinct lack of genuine top superstar I mean let's analyse;

John Cena- the only true top superstar. The big guy, who is loved and loathed in equal measure but more loved than loathed. One of the few to truly transcend wrestling and IMO ranks amongst the all time greats perhaps even the top 5.

CM Punk- almost on the level of Cena but not quite the big transcending superstar. Great charisma and in ring skills. All round talented guy and one of the best technical wrestlers of all time alongside Bret Hart and Chris Benoit and perhaps Kurt Angle too.


Randy Orton- much like HHH only got to where he is because of who knew and who he is. Otherwise where else except in the WWE or pro wrestling could a crack cocaine addict and AWOL marine get to the top of his profession? How many wellness policy violations has he had?

Rey Mysterio's career fizzled out long time ago mainly due to his injuries and the fact that his performances have become tedious. Del Rio plays a great heel and makes you laugh but other than that. Sheamus isn't bad when he isn't injured. Wade Barrett had potential but now they've just ruined the character though I did chuckle when that podium popped up lol I'm dirty minded.

Otherwise Big Show has been irrelevant for ten years now. Khali is only around in order to increase ethnic diversity. Jack swagger and dolphin Ziggler were pushed way too early and too fast. Kofi Kingston and R truth will never be main event players.

Ryback, Brodus Clay, Tensai.......what a load of bollocks.

Big E Langston isn't too bad. Mark Henry is just fat.

Fandango is like Disco Inferno's long lost brother and he gets more ridiculous as the weeks go by.

Bray Wyatt has huge potential IMO but the pg rating prevents his creepy and sadistic, psychotic character being used to the maximum effect.


Oh yeah Brock Lesnar whenever he is around. Shame to see Kane reduced to nothing more than an on screen lackey.

The Shield remind me of Aces and Eights and that was a load of crap too.

The bull fighter guys primo and epico, crap. Usos, crap.

Divas division doesn't get the push or respect it deserves. Tamina Snuka and Kaitlyn and Aj Lee the only shining lights to be fair. Maybe Natalya. Sorely miss Beth Phoenix and Eve and Kelly Kelly. Heck even Lisa Marie Varon and Gail Kim but we'll never see them in the WWE again. Lita too.

WWE is always going to be THE promotion...Nobody will ever challenge them in the way that WCW did...The whole franchise is a money printing machine except those stupid, irrelevant WWE Films they make..

That is what is wrong with the WWE...They dont have anything/one to push them further towards the boundaries. And they likely never will again.

The PG TV thing holds them back aswell... Sure the product is more marketable to a PG audience and the PG audience will buy more merchandise. So from a business perpective I understand that its the way forward...

However, I think WWE would benefit greatly from having a corresponding TV output for the older generations of fans... I would be all for them having a bi-weekly show that was more hard hitting. Allowed some closer to the cloth dialogue and some more 'Attitude Era' style matches..

Even Go as far as calling it 'WWE Thursday Night Attitude' and up the rating..

At the moment they have a wealth of decent characters and performers that would shine better in that environment.

Not by politicking at all?

Really don't think being the son of Cowboy Bob has all that much sway or we'd have be watching David Flair against Sammartino's kid in the main event of 'Mania.

I'm just going to ignore the line about RVD being a technical wrestler though.

I'm sure it counted for something. Orton did have his own skill set but he hardly set the world on fire and unless there's some bout of Orton mania set to come, he will hardly be remembered as one of the greats.

David Flair was given major pushes in both WCW and WWE programming but it turned out the guy had absolutely no shred of talent.

I know nothing about Sammartino's kid so can't comment.

But I doubt Cody Rhodes, Goldust, Curtis Axel, Natalya and Tamina Snuka would have amounted to much had it not been for the families they were born into. It's a bit like legacy admissions at Harvard or the old boys network at Cambridge.

Even Dwayne milked his wrestling heritage to the max as reflected in his stage name.

There's no truly decent talent left in the WWE anymore.

Yeah he had no athletic ability whatsoever. Just a muscle bound meathead like Levesque.

Are you Autistic or something?

No, you said technical wrestler, if you're counting athletic ability as a criteria to fit that then Sabu is an extreme Bret Hart.

No, again you're ignoring what you said, which is a stupidly grand sweeping statement, and arguing from a different stance, you said he wouldn't get anywhere not that it counted for something. Being a second generation star only gives you a chance to stand out by opening the doors sooner, it doesn't guarantee success, or Erik Watts would be running the industry.

WWE

Good:
The talent they've brought up lately have all been tremendous with the Shield and Wyatts being prime examples. Now you are almost guaranteed a great match involving them on every show.
While the booking and finishes are sometimes left to be desired, the in ring work has been fantastic lately. Also, I'd call you crazy if you told me in 2004 that CM Punk and Bryan Danielson would dominate airtime on RAW.

Bad:
Too many angles get dropped for no reason, taking the audience for granted. A lot of the same guys have been in the main event for too long, making it stale. If Cena did what Orton did and go back down to the midcard to work an angle with someone, people wouldn't be as hard on his character.
Also, Triple H and Stephanie have spent the last 5 months getting heat on themselves instead of putting it on Orton, who turned into a cross between Johnny Lawrence and an overgrown overexplaining man-child. Also, stop heating up Big Show at the expense of other talent, he isn't going to happen.

TNA

Good:
I like the behind the scenes cost cutting they've done. The ratings will always be in that .9-1.1 range, so why not build new stars instead of trotting out the same guys over and over while paying them high amounts for low dates. This way they can stop the bleeding and try to make the company presentable for investors if the Carters want to sell off a part of TNA.

Bad:
Too many angles and matches are supposed to have HUGE IMPLICATIONS but don't mean anything two weeks later. Way too much Dixie Carter on TV, she isn't good and someone that bad shouldn't take up that much time.
Stop trying to be sports entertainment. Be pro wrestling and be a true alternative to WWE, rather than "WWE Lite - Less Filling". They do a few solid shows then do something stupid.
Also, stop copying look for look other TV shows. They make it way too obvious that the writers just started watching a hit show, whether it's Sons of Anarchy or Dexter. I can't wait for Joseph Park to get cancer and start cooking meth with Eric Young.

Beats being an inbred like you.

"you're autistic!"
"you're inbred!"

read what you tiny little children are saying to each other and feel shame

How on Earth was it a sweeping statement? My point was by virtue of their family connections, Dwayne Johnson, Cody Rhodes and randy Orton all got easier opportunities than the average wrestler who had to slog it out from the bottom up. Obviously the rock was a very talented wrestler and charismatic individual and clearly has talents beyond the ring, he may well have made it had he not come from such a wrestling pedigree. I guess the same could be said for Bret Hart.

But you can't deny the fact Triple H isn't enjoying the fruits of his marriage into the McMahon family. His best days in the ring have been behind him for some time and if it wasn't for his association with the Kliq, HBK and now the McMahon family as I said before he'd be back in Canada running a stable or doing comic convention appearances.

RVD was certainly the much better in ring performer combining his wrestling skills with martial arts and the stunts he did.

As I said before since the demise of WCW, the quality of WWE programming has diminished. I mean seriously having the muppets, three stooges and Seth green on Raw? Just as bad as when they had Robocop and Chucky on WCW.

The management are two faced hypocritical cunts too. I love how they unceremoniously sacked JR and then had the nerve to 'pay tribute' to him on twitter and on wwe.com.

Hunter was an established main eventer before his marriage, he was well on his way to becoming one before he was ever involved with Stephanie. The Kliq at one time included Justin Credible so that isn't a free ride to the top either. RVD, as entertaining as he was in his prime, was sloppy as fuck in the ring, and a spinning kick doesn't equate to martial arts, Triple H used one of those once too. And if you read the quotes of your posts I used, it's not difficult from the language used to see where the "sweeping statement" line has merit.

And Innovator wins this thread.

I didnt say he was autistic..I enquired.

Based on the fact that autistic people generally don't understand social situations and struggle to recognize facial expressions and don't always possess the ability to see things as they are..

Not sure how you linked that in with my comments. Criticising wwe management's questionable booking policies, the merits of HHH's career and pointing out the lack of true superstar quality talent hardly makes on autistic.

Who exactly are the truly big stars left in the WWE apart from Cena? Punk doesn't come quite as close. Lesnar was never around long enough the first time around to really make an impact. Rey Mysterio had has moment in the spotlight but injuries plagued him. Randy Orton is in theory one wellness policy violation away from being fired.

We need more time to see the Wyatts and Shield individually I reckon. Barett, Ziggler, Swagger and Del Rio peaked and are now back to mid carders. Doubt we'll ever see the likes of Kofi or R Truth competing for the main events, McMahon would squirm at the though of a black guy holding the wwe title the closet racist that he is.

You said.. ''theres no truely decent talent''

You've now changed that to 'True Superstar Quality talent'

Theres a world of difference in those two statements...

They're interchangeable terms. By decent talent I mean great in ring performers and those who the fans truly want to sing and shout about week in week out.

But then when we talk about truly superstar quality then who is there really apart from John Cena? He's the only one on the roster who is of any note in the mainstream and the true face of the company. Cm Punk comes a very close second.

Lesnar was never around long enough the first time and neither the second time to truly endear himself to the fans. It remains to be seen what Batista will do upon his return. Undertaker should retire rather than strain himself for the one match a year.

Daniel Bryan has the skills and generates a certain buzz from the crowd but is he really someone who has or will take the company to greater heights? Same with Randy Orton. Both great wrestlers but not quite the brand names.

Going back the Triple H comments for those who claim he was the real deal ok imagine if there hadn't been an Austin, Rock, undertaker or HBK and Triple H was then by default the biggest star, do you still think WWE would have been a s popular as it was?

*grabs some popcorn for the tard-fight*

A counter point to the whole second and third generation thing: 80% of the time, the cream rises to the top. The better ones you don't even have to mention that their father was a star, except in passing. Folks like Randy Savage, Ted DiBiase Sr., Finlay, Jake "The Snake" Roberts, Barry Windham, Mr. Perfect. The Rock took a while to get there, but eventually did, and was one of the biggest of all time.

On the other hand, you had folks like David Flair, David Sammartino, Erik Watts, Kendall Windham, Greg Gagne, Brian Christopher, and to an extent Jeff Jarrett who were missing that one vital thing to push them to the next level, despite their parentage, and despite the numbers of chances given. In fact, there's stories that the only reason Greg Gagne wasn't given the AWA World Title, despite missing that one vital thing, was that the board threatened to walk out on Verne if he did.

Dustin Rhodes was actually fairly over in his own right in WCW. He was on the cusp, but wouldn't have hit that next level under his dad. So he became Goldust. Cody, on the other hand, is developing well, and stepping into his own as a worker. He may be bigger than his brother, or he may not. But he has the potential.

Randy, is going to be a fun one for me to discuss. This board knows damn well what I think of him. As for the person dismissing the role of Bob Orton Jr., I'll say this. The guy's dad played a role in the main event of Wrestlemania. The first one. The one that started the whole thing. If you don't think Vince would strap a rocket to him on that reason alone, you're a fool. He went on to do decent in an era where there wasn't really a need for him to be anything other than decent. If he came in during the territory era, or even 20 years ago, I don't think he'd have made it as far as he has. He'd have either gotten over himself quickly or been run out on the business.

My argument against Bob Orton is more his legacy in comparison to a Dibiase, Henning, Flair, if it was all down to the name you carried there are sons of bigger stars who would have gotten over bigger than Randy.

The fact is Randy Orton like Triple H are both overrated and hardly remarkable individuals and wwe still would have been big without them both.

Hardly. Triple H helped keep the WWE afloat as its #1 heel when Austin and Taker got hurt, and again when several stars up and left WWE in the early 2000s. Would you argue that WWF didn't need Piper in the 80s? They might have been as big or as successful, but you cannot deny the importance of a talented and over heel in the main event.

Triple H was a great heel nothing more or less but he was never the man fans paid to see. Tbh we are going to have to agree to disagree. I stand by my assertion that in the words of his gimmick, triple h was at best a b grade superstar and never the face of the wwe. He may well end up in HOF but it won't be because he had a seismic impact on wrestling.

He's overrated in the vein of Nash and Hall who along with Bischoff think the world began and ended with the NWO when in fact the storyline got stale all too quickly and only ever had any credibility due to the presence of Hogan in the faction and his subsequent rivalries with Sting and dropping the belt to Goldberg. Nash ok I give him some credit at least he was a world champion in both but Hall? He's a world class drunk at best.

Then again you can't say most in the HOF were revolutionaries or there on merit otherwise why Koko B Ware, Drew Carey or Jerry Lawler even?

We need to agree that you have no idea what you are talking about and have no fucking clue about wrestling. "A great heel. Nothing more. Nothing less." I'm glad that being a great top heel is such an easy thing to do.

This is coming from the person who insert politically correct insult here, obsessed with Triple H like a fly is infatuated with a dung heap?

Apologies if that offends flies or excrement.

Compare Triple H with all the greats past and present and tell me if he really is up there with the likes of Hogan, Flair, Sting, Warrior, Macho Man, undertaker, Bret Hart, Mick Foley, iron sheikh, bob backlund, Rock, Austin, HBK, heck I would rate Cena, Goldberg and Eddie Gurerro above him. Clearly it pisses off one or two mother fuckers on here but I guess this what happens when you debate with inbred rednecks living in a trailer somewhere in Arkansas.

goldberg above hhh? now THAT is rich.

Bobo, why do you have this notion that anybody in wrestling who doesn't attain the level of success of a Flair, Hogan, Austin, Rock, or Cena is either a failure or not due a certain level of respect and admiration for their contributions to professional wrestling?

I never said they were a failure. My point was that you can't claim that people like HHH are amongst the greats when firstly the were never truly the key superstars in their respective companies. And then if we want to talk about truly great I.e. Changed the face of pro wrestling and attained success beyond the ring then no HHH never achieved that.

My point about Goldberg, he was a world champion in the two biggest wrestling promotions of all time. In the WCW days alongside Hogan and the NWO and Sting, his streak and white hot popularity were key to WCW trouncing WWE in the ratings. The fact that fans still chant his name on Raw some 9 years after he left is an indicator of just how popular and well regarded he was and still is.

How many wrestlers can simply walk into the WWE and in their debut ppv do one on the Rock and then capture the world title in less than a year? Not many stars had that aura Goldberg did and it shows how highly regarded he was by WWE management that they would even contemplate allowing him to pick up a win over arguably the greatest superstar in pro wrestling in his debut ppv match.

Goldberg was a big star in both WCW and WWE that's why I rate him highly.

Mr. Perfect was never more than a glorified midcarder (AWA was already dead when he won the belt). Is he not one of the "greats"?

And Warrior, the epitome of technical excellence.

But no they are not failures as not everyone is going to be Hogan or Flair just like every Footballer isn't going to be Pele or Zidane, or every boxer an Ali or Robinson.

It just irks me that people claim HHH to be this blindingly shining bright superstar who somehow revolutionised pro wrestling and made the business what is to do when he was nowhere near that level.

Yes he was a great and may well rank in the top 20 and certainly the top 30 of all time but the notion that he was and is one of the all time greats is just ridiculous.


Ask yourselves if you think DX would have worked without HBK from the beginning or the NWO without Hogan. The likes of Levesque, Hall and Nash simply fed off their reputations rather than garnering any credit or kudos for themselves.

Wow, your willful ignorance is truly astonishing.

And kindly explain the Elton John child abuse comment Bobo.

Never was the top dog in WWE or WCW so not an all time great but respected nevertheless.

His untimely death no doubt gave him more credit than he deserved as was the case with Owen Hart who let's be honest was shit.

I never said that about Warrior but yes he had athletic and technical ability up to about 1992 at least but his popularity was sky high on the level of hogan at his peak, triple h never enjoyed that kind of popularity or merchandise sales.

What's there to explain?

All of it really.

Because I don't rate Triple H as one of the all time greats doesn't make me ignorant or any more or less of a wrestling fan.

I never said the man was crap and worthless. Yes he had some skill and some ability and some charisma but he isn't on the level you appear to be elevating him to and I suspect many pro wrestling critics and experts would concur.

Nobody can deny Triple H hasn't benefited both on and off screen by marrying into the McMahon family and to deny that would in fact be truly ignorant.

Nothing to explain really does what it says on the tin. A pun, ok a crude one at that, but that's all it is.

So homophobia then?

Not really but you can't exactly accuse me of homophobia given the amount of casual racism posted on these forums by 'respected users' be it against black people or the anti Muslim comments re Inoki's conversion to Islam.

My comments weren't homophobic at all and like I said if I'm going to be accused of any sort of bigotry it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

So why is he molesting a child? And because others post stuff like that isn't really an excuse unless you're a child, and even then a pitiful one.

No but you can't berate me for making a lewd comment about Elton John when other users on here continually post racist remarks and do nothing about that unless of course you have some sort of hidden personalised agenda.

lol wow you are dumb as fuck

you can, in fact, do this exact thing if you're not one of the vocal few that post this way, you big fucking dummy.

So you know you're in the wrong but are pointing the finger at everyone else? Congrats!

Didn't we already do one of these threads about HHH?

Oh I'm sorry he was actually a really good wrestler so popular that his matches were legendary I mean the fact he fell to his death on live tv did nothing to mark him out as an undeserving legend? Seriously you must be the dumb fuck.

My comments were not even homophobic dickwad. Elton John is a gay, calling a spade a spade is hardly offensive.

What so I'm guessing you must be an Elton John fan then?

And in your world all gays like 12yo boys?

I feel like my "State Your Case" series of threads is a smash hit so far.

Tbh it all started from here I.e. Veering off into the triple h debate.

Some might do in which case they would be Paedophiles and ought to be in jail.

To be honest I did state my case as per the thread title but you marked out my comments on triple h for debate hence why we went off track.

Right but you still haven't explained why you thought him abusing a child was what, funny? Appropriate? Maybe if you could break it down so we could all understand why you felt the need for this then the rest of your posts would make some semblance of sense?

This ain't no moral circle it's a wrestling forum.

It is my fucking thread. We didn't veer off topic. You think Triple H is why WWE is bad, and I chose to smite thee for your fucking stupidity.

Then it's impossible to debate with you rationally as your bias is towards one wrestler whom you worship as the next best thing since sliced bread.

Your opinion is fucking stupid. I have never claimed Triple H is the greatest of all time, but to ignore his contributions and status in wrestling is just willful ignorance because you haven't gotten past the year 2003.

And the fact you think boning the bosses daughter and reaping the rewards of being a part of the family somehow equates to achievement is even more so. Gosh I knew rednecks were retarded but not this much.

you're ignoring the fact that while triple h has benefited from his marriage to some degree, it took a lot of his own hard work and natural talent to get where he is. you're only looking at one part of the equation, which is why you whining about there being no rational debate here is laughable.

What was THIS all about?

Do you doubt that Jerry Lawler is HOF-worthy???

He was being pushed long before Stephanie was in the equation, and after HBK was out 'retired', so if this is going to be all you have outside asinine paedo comments I think you should take a break.

Oh right and not being a part of the Kliq had absolutely nothing at all to do with his push to the top?

The fact is triple h has been on more handouts than homeless people at a foodbank and must pray long and hard each morning that his marriage lasts or else he'll fizzle out into nothingness.

Erm yes.

His heart attack was probably his most meaningful contribution to pro wrestling.

:|

And I'm done, you've now eclipsed mike adamle as the dumbest cunt here, kudos!

All it takes to be famous in the wwe these days is become a crack addict like Randy Orton, break your neck and retire early like Edge, bone the bosses daughter like Triple H , have a heart attack live on the air like jerry Lawler or fall to your death like Owen hart.

I bet Owen Hart's favourite movie was the cable guy lol.

Yeah, pot kettle black indeed.

I think LOL TNA pretty much sums it up