examples of masterful politicking ?
 

Hey there fellas,

I have been thinking about wrestling politics, which Kevin Nash calls " the chess game". We all know about the Kliq and Hulk Hogan but are there other examples of politics that was devious or masterfully done?

The ones involving Hogan with his "that doesn't work for me brother" are numerous. Shawn Michaels both in and out of the ring are also duly noted - do you have any that have intrigued or just stuck with you?
If you heard of any good ones- please share!

SCSA and Double J?

Hogan was the master of it, as you've said.

I remember seeing a list here showing that he'd take time off knowing that business would be bad regardless (Football season for example) then pop back up as business began to improve again.

1985 - Would Hogan be willing to work a program with Rick Steamboat if Steamboat agreed to
turn heel? No. Give him Big John Studd instead.
1986 - Hogan-Savage is tentatively planned for WM 2, after the two had feuded in house
shows which Savage had won by DQ or countout. Hogan nixes the idea of facing the dynamic,
atheltic Savage at 'Mania, even though he would be booked to win. Hogan handpicks King
Kong Bundy to embarass in a cage match. Savage wrestles George Steele far down the
undercard.
1986 - Hogan agrees to work with Paul Orndorff, but won't do the job to him. Hogan agrees
only because he is guaranteed a win at a huge event. He defeats Orndorff in a cage match on
SNME to end the feud.
1987 - Hogan again turns down the idea of feuding with Savage; but suggests turning him
face, so Hogan can step aside for awhile, film a movie and get some needed rest.
Savage turns face that summer.
1988 - Hogan agrees to "drop" the belt to Andre, but only under questionable circumstances to
preserve his character. Hogan agrees to "give the rub" to Savage at WM IV. Hogan only agrees
because he is promised he will get the title back at WM 5.
1988 - Six months later, as Savage is having a successful run, Hogan suggests putting them
together as a team "Mega Powers" and they headline Summerslam. Hogan is no longer the
champion - but still in the main event.
1989 - Hogan finally meets Savage at Wrestlemania V. Hogan beats him for the title. Rather
than face Savage in the anticipated rematch at Summerslam, or a program with Rick Rude as
creative suggests - Hogan decides to go a different route.
Hogan suggests a tag team match, pitting himself and his close friend Brutus Beefcake,
against Savage and an ACTOR, Tiny Lister who played Zeus in the Hogan film "No Holds
Barred". The film opened that summer to decent business, so Hogan uses a WWE PPV to
promote the film, while "giving the rub" to his friend Beefcake.
1990 - Hogan agrees to drop the belt to Ultimate Warrior at Wrestlemania. Only with a
guarantee of an extended break and the promise he would get the title back. A month after
'Mania, Hogan is "attacked" by Earthquake and off TV for a few months. After teasing
retirement on TV, Hogan returns at Summerslam as "Immortal" and vanquishes his good friend
John Tenta (Earthquake).
1990 - To preserve the Warrior character, creative decides he will drop the title to someone
OTHER than Hogan. Despite the allure of a Hogan/Warrior rematch - Randy Savage is rumored
to be the man Warrior will drop the belt to at Royal Rumble '91. Hogan suggests Sgt Slaughter.
Slaughter has just returned as an "Iraqi sympathizer" and Hogan pushes for Slaughter to beat
Warrior, then he can beat Slaughter to regain the belt.
1991 - Hogan defeats Slaughter a few months after "Desert Storm" starts. He waves his flag
and defeats the Iraqi villan at Wrestlemania. After headlining Wrestlemania for the past two
years, Savage and Warrior are reduced to the undercard.
1991 - Hogan again decides against a rematch with Warrior at Summerslam, and suggests they
team together against Slaughter & The Iron Shiek. Six months after he had beaten Slaughter for
the belt, he feels the feud is not over and that fans will tune in to watch him team with Warrior
against "the enemy".
1991 - Hogan agrees to drop the title to Undertaker, but refuses to do a clean job to him. Ric
Flair interferes in the match with a chair and 'Taker gets the win.
1992 - McMahon decides that Flair will win the title at Royal Rumble, then drop the title to
Hogan in a "dream match" at Wrestlemania VIII. Hogan decides he wants to take another
extended break after 'Mania. He suggests Flair drop the title to Savage instead and he can
work with Sid Vicious and "give him the rub".
Despite the fact that Flair/Savage is the WWE Title match, it is placed in the middle of the
show. Hogan and the lumbering Sid Vicious close the show. The first time the WWE Champion
has not been in the main event of Wrestlemania.
1993 - Hogan agrees to return to team with Brutus Beefcake against Money Inc. at
Wrestlemania and it appears to be the first time he will NOT be in the main event.
When Hogan learns that WWE Champion Bret Hart is scheduled to drop the title to Yokozuna,
he informs McMahon that this will be the first Wrestlemania that a face doesn't win the main
event and the "people aren't gonna like it". Hogan suggests "surprising" the audience by
challenging Yoko immediately afterward and beating him to win the WWE Title. Vince McMahon
agees. Hogan beats Yoko to regain the title.
1993 - McMahon and WWE creative suggests Hogan and Bret Hart engage in a face vs face
match at Summerslam that will see Hogan "pass the torch" to Hart and drop the title.
Hogan turned the idea down, and agreed to drop the title back to Yokozuna, who in turn
would drop it to Hart at SS. Some critics believe, however, that Hogan simply didn't want to
drop the title to the new flagship of the company.
Hogan drops the belt to Yoko at KOTR (but doesn't drop it cleanly), while WWE goes with the
failed Lex Luger "US Express" idea. Hogan leaves WWE two months later and does not appear
at Summerslam.
1994 - Hogan signs with WCW after being courted by Ric Flair and Eric Bischoff. Hogan
insisted on "complete creative control" over the Hulk Hogan character and a certain
perrcentage of EACH PPV TOTAL REVENUE.
1994 - A three match series is planned with Hogan/Flair. Hogan would win the first, Flair
would regain it and Hogan would win the finale. All parties agree.
Hogan wins the WCW World Title from Ric Flair in his first match back in a year. When the time
comes for Flair to regain the title, Hogan refuses, saying the fans "weren't ready for him to
drop it".
Flair later admits in his book, that fans were already booing Hogan at shows, but that WCW
was dubbing in a "cheering crowd soundtrack".
The subsequent PPVs featuring Flair/Hogan fail to sell.
1994 - Hogan negotiates for former WWE stars and Hogan allies Brutus Beefcake, Earthquake
and Typhoon to join WCW.
Creative suggests Hogan face Sting in a face vs face "dream match" at Starrcade. Hogan
decides it makes better sense for him to face Beefcake as the heel, "The Butcher". The PPV
flops.
1995 - Hogan convinces Randy Savage to leave WWE and join WCW. Instead of starting a feud
between the two former WWE Champions, Hogan insists on teaming with Savage against Kevin
Sullivan and his 3 Faces of Fear.
1995 - Hogan agrees to work with Vader, but the program soon falls apart when both acuse
the other of "not selling for the other".
Fans are steadily losing interest in WCW. The company begins to falter seriously, as executives
point at the Hogan contract and "creative control" agreement as being a main culprit. Hogan
takes extended time off - but remains the highest paid man on the roster.
1996 - With WCW desperate to compete with WWE, WCW signs Hall and Nash and plot the NWO
angle. Hogan is booked to turn heel and he agrees. The angle is a smash. Within weeks,
Hogan wins the World Title from The Giant.
Instead of milking fresh matchups as a heel, Hogan decides that WCW should bring in Roddy
Piper. Despite the possibility of a Starrcade matchup with Lex Luger or The Giant - Hogan
faces Piper in a cage match in the main event. Hogan puts over Piper via the sleeperhold, in a
NON-TITLE match.
1997 - Hogan feuds with Piper and Savage, while turning down suggestions he put over Luger
or Diamind Dallas Page for the title. He appears weekly, but rarely wrestles on TV, while still
remaining the highest paid star in WCW.
1997 - In his much hyped Starrcade match with Sting, it was decided that Hogan would beat
Sting after an alleged "fast count" by referee Nick Patrick. WCW's newly contracted Bret Hart
would accuse Patrick and have the match restarted with Sting winning by submission.
Hogan reportedly paid off referee Patrick, to count normally and make it look like Hogan had
pinned Sting cleanly. When this DID happen, the planned finish played out - but fans booed
because it was clearly botched and made Sting look bad.
1998 - Hogan agreed to put over Goldberg cleanly on Nitro, but with the condition that Karl
Malone & DDP get involved to prompt a Hogan/Dennis Rodman team to debut on PPV at Bash
At The Beach. Hogan promoted the match on "The Tonight Show" and later teamed with
Bischoff against DDP and Jay Leno HIMSELF!
The Hogan celebrity tag team matches stole all the attention while WCW Champion Goldberg
was all but ignored.
1999 - After six months without the title, and still being the top guy, Hogan regained the title
from Kevin Nash in the "Fingerpoke of Doom" incident. Openly flaunting his creative control
clause. He would lose the title, but not cleanly to Ric Flair.
When the NWO angle began to lose serious steam, Hogan turned face again. Randy Savage
had recently turned heel and regained the WCW Title.
Once again, this time conviently as a face, Hogan defeated Savage to regain the title.
Despite having names like Hart, Luger and Sting to work with Savage - the title went baclk to
Hogan. At his request.

Continued....



2000 - Hogan begins feuding with WCW booker Vince Russo over how he's being used. Russo
wanted to push younger stars and to appease Russo only, Hogan worked with young Billy
Kidman.
When a WCW Title match with Jeff Jarrett was booked, Russo had Jarrett winning. Hogan
refused, because his contract with WCW was almost up and he feared Russo wouldn't use him
on future PPV events. Meaning Hogan would lose out on serious cash.
Russo pulled a swerve on Hogan by having Jarrett lay down for him intentionally. Hogan did
so, winning the belt - then was immeditaely stripped of it.
Hogan was never seen in WCW again.
2002 - Hogan accepts an offer to return to WWE and reunite the original NWO, with the
understanding he would be in a featured match with The Rock at Wrestlemania X8.
Hogan scored a huge deal from WWE, and agreed to put over The Rock. He suggests they
close the show as he felt "they had drawn the crowd" - but McMahon and specifically Triple H
refuse to put the WWE Title match in a secondary role.
Hogan is later booked to win the title from Triple H, but is dissapointed when it comes with
the condition he drop it to Undertaker a month later.
After being booked to lose to Kurt Angle at KOTR 2002, Hogan decided he needed time off
again. Despite only having been back for all of four months.
Hogan is convinced to stay long enough to get in a quick tag team championship win with
Edge. He is then asked to put over Brock Lesnar, which he does.
He is dissatisfied with his role, because he isn't be portrayed the way "he thought he would".
He takes another "extended brea" after the Lesnar match.
2003 - He returns at the request of Vince McMahon and the promise of a big Wrestlemania
payday. Their street fight is a featured match on the card.
With the WWE Title now revolving around much younger wrestlers, Hogan is frustrated by
Creatives decision to book him in a secondary role on Smackdown and he leaves WWE again.
2004 - Hogan is openly courted by TNA Wrestling, but the deal hits a snag when Hogan was
reportedly told he would have to put over Jarrett at some point. Hogan begins to complain of
"knee problems" as the deal falls apart.
2005 - Hogan is inducted into the Hall of Fame, and agrees to the idea of a Hogan/Shawn
Michaels match at Summerslam.
McMahon proposes two matches, with each winning one. Hogan agrees.
After spending all of his comeback as a face, HBK agrees to turn heel to sell the match.
Michaels carries a clearly laboring Hogan through a decent match at Summerslam, and HBK
does the clean job to Hogan.
The second match in the series is called off, when Hogan began to complain "his knee was
acting up again".
Hence, the Hogan win over HBK stands as their one and only meeting.
2005 - Hogan proposes the"Dream Match" scenario of Hogan vs Steve Austin to WWE Creative
for Wrestlemania. Austin says no - citing the HBK scenario at Summerslam. He refuses to put
Hogan over.
2006 - Hogan is asked to appear at Summerslam and face Randy Orton. He agrees with the
rumoured condition that WWE pushes his daughter Brooke's debut CD.
Instead of putting over "The Legend Killer", Hogan flexes his "creative control".
Despite being 53 at the time, having wrestled one match in over a year, and bad knees, Hogan
defeats the 26 year old former World Champion via clean pinfall.

Not the list I was looking for, but some examples of Hogan's "politics".

I'm a big Anti-Hogan mark over here, but Shawn Michaels feud ending after one match was Shawn's fault.

He made fun of the Summerslam match as he was wrestling said match with Hogan, and then the next night he openly made fun of Hogan and the match on Raw. Don't get me the wrong the whole thing was awesome, but I don't blame Hogan for not wanting a second match against Shawn Michaels.

Hogan was totally right about WrestleMania x8 and being in the main event, IMO (PS - SHISEN WAS THERE...that's an exclusive scoop I got from the man hjmself! WOO WRASSLIN'!)

Hogan is just brilliant.

One thing I will say about Hogan was that he played the game perfectly. He realised very early that you had to play the system to make the money continually. If he was a businessman, he would be getting praised.

Even though he protected himself, he always made money for the people he worked with and encouraged them to "get their share" too. Kamala has said that recently about him.

He was selfish and didn't do what was best for the business at times, but he def made the most out of his own career and made the cash while he could.

Hall had to be pretty bad at politicking to never get a World title. Couldn't even get one when Nash was booking the show. Out of all the Kliq he had to be the worst politician.

Hall had to have been a good politicker to pull all the crazy shit he pulled and still have a job in a prominent position.

True, seemed like he was just content with being in the spotlight.

X-Pac had to be a terrible politicker not to be able to talk the crowds into givibg hin more heat...

Well, Shawn did that promo because they weren't doing another match. Shawn wanted a two match series where they'd split a match apiece, Hogan didn't want to lose to him, so they did the one and done and Shawn buried it the next night and they started the new angle for him during the same promo (with Masters, of all people), so it was over before Shawn did that.

Hogan's got quite the rap sheet. The maneouvering around Goldberg in 98 was horrific, losing the WCW Title on the provision he break the streak, and even when he didn't, the chain of events led to him as top heel, the streak is broken, and Nash is underneath Hogan, top guy, streak over. All the while Goldberg is in lame duck feuds while Hogan's stuff takes prominence against Jay Leno and the Warrior. The damage it did was amazing.

Shisen was at X-8? Why hasn't he mentioned this?

Most of the politicking Hogan did was right. You can't really argue with the results. At least not during his initial WWE run and the business him and all the things he supposedly politicked for did.

Triple H harmed business way more by putting himself over anyone and everyone while people were tuning out in droves.

Using an example of Hogan without him being the spotlight of it, TNA spent the better part of a year building up Bobby Roode as the new top babyface. A day before Bound for Glory where Roode is facing a one legged Kurt Angle, Hogan does a radio interview and says that Roode doesn't have it as a face and James Storm is better.

Roode loses in 8 minutes and on Impact James Storm wins the title in a minute.

Shisen is my best friend off the forums and he has never mentioned being at Wrestlemania 18 to me before. First I'm hearing.of this. I"m hoping Shisen confirms this.

Jesus, dont forget to tickle hulk's balls while you are down there

Why, it's true.

Shisen has mentioned it a bunch of times

My mistake. Hogan did terrible business. Worst draw ever. Definitely should have put Bret over to help lead WWE into that huge boom period he ushered in.

If Hogan wasn't going to be there, he could have done the favour for Bret. If he had done the favour for Bret and given him the rub, it would have elevated Bret in the fan's eyes and made him seem as a big time transcending type character. But instead, Bret was stuck headlining shows against Papa Shango.

I guess you are slow so we have to spell it out for you. Justifying hogan's routine then villifying hhh for the same thing is what makes you the hogan deepthroater. And for the record it was mania 8 where the hogan bullshit got out of control, not with bret

Almost every top guy plays politics

You think its a coincidence while Bret Hart was on top he was working with his brother and his brother in law most of his time on top?

Shawn Michaels had a lot of programs with his buddies.

Austin was notorious for turning down angles and programs if it didnt appeal to him. Hell he walked out on doing ONE JOB. Now granted, I think he was right, but he still played politics.

Everyone does it. And why wouldnt you? You want to work with guys you are comfortable with. You want to put input into your storylines, because it matters to you, and you have the boss' ear.

That goes for any line of work, not just pro wrasslin. Gotta protect your livelihood

But the point I'm making, is whether it's Hogan's fault, or Vince's fault for giving Hogan too much clout.... Hogan not doing the favour for Bret really kicked Bret's push in the balls, and realistically, losing to Bret would not have hurt Hogan.

I justified it because business was amazing when Hogan was doing it and business turned to shit when Triple H was doing it. I said that was why. Like... I said those actual words. In clear English.

Bret losing to Shawn in Montreal would have kick started HBK as a heel champ, and would have set the stage for Austin to beat him

Austin losing to Brock would have set the stage for Brock taking over as the top guy

And on it goes

Bret would have done the job outside of Montreal and would have done it the next night (whether or not he should have done it in Montreal is another conversation). And losing to Michaels in Montreal could conceivably hurt Bret, especially having been made to look like such chump change in the lead up, and WCW apparently had brought him in especially for the Canadian marquee. Plus, Michaels had his part in Bret not wanting to do business.

Austin had no problem losing to Brock (so he claims) if it wasn't just a one off match on RAW with no real build and Brock did not need Austin's scalp because he was on a tear as it was. Such rushed booking would make seem Austin look like an afterthought and therefore hurt him.

I don't think those examples hold much weight.

Hogan not jobbing to Bret really could have aided the transition into the new generation and it wouldn't have hurt hogan a bit. He was on his way out and he went into business for himself 100 per cent. It was straight up vindictive nonsense.

All of those instances would have helped the guy going over. The guy asked to do the favours refused. Thats the end of the story.

I really think it was because of the HBK promo on Raw after SummerSlam why he backed out. I'm like 95% positive it happened that way. Either way Hogan is a douche.

But it's not, because I added other variables. But you know, feel free to argue circularly and ignore my points :)

Realisticially, there was NOBODY for Hart to go over in that time that would make him seem on the level of Hogan, upon Hogan's exit other than Hogan himself.

Brock had the entire damned roster and could have had a match with Austin with build down the road.

Shawn had already beaten Bret and was already a great heel at that point.

As I said, your examples don't hold that much weight. I'm a fan of Hogan's work, and I get his politicking, but sometimes he was far more of a cunt than most, this being a HUGE example.

Politics is what makes the world go around, and is in every job in any line of work. You have to learn the system, and know how to play it.

However when it's completely detrimental to a company like Sting at Starrcade is when someone above the wrestlers have to step in.

Also I don't believe Hogan paid Nick Patrick to botch the count, but I fully believe Hogan was involved 1000%. It's still the dumbest end to huge angle in the history of wrestling.

Thank you McLegend. That's all I'm getting at. Whether it's that bullshit WM9 Finish leading into NOTHING with Bret, or that bullshit with Sting, is when it's just fucking ridiculous.

And with Hulk, yeah I think somebody needed to stand up to him. You let someone get away with so much, of course they're going to keep pulling the same horse shit.

I'm going to think about Starrcade 97 all night now.

I'm kind of pissed.

lol just a seething ball of nostalgic adolescent rage

I wasn't even close to being a smart fan at the time, but even I knew it was the dumbest thing ever.

There is no way 6 people sitting around a table come up with that decision. That was done to just benefit one person, and that one person is coming with that idea.

I'm making a wild claim here.

If Sting wins that match cleanly he is viewed way differently today. It's not is Sting a legend? Like it is today. It's Sting is a legend. Hogan hurt Sting's entire career that night.

I hate that match so fucking much.

it's just so bush league

Except you are talking out of your fucking ass.compare the list of who hogan wouldnt drop to to that of guys hhh said no to. Whi hasnt beaten hhh in his 22 year career. Hogan in that time has clean losses to what,2 people?

... There's no way you're a real person.

Suck a dick.

lol

Austin was right in not wanting to job to Brock on an un advertised raw match. Although he probably could have talked vince out of it instead of just not showing up.Saw him there, it's true it's true.

I'm not sure if there is a show I hate more in WCW history than Starrcade 97. If you could write everything you should have done on a piece of paper, then write the exact opposite on another piece of paper, that's the one they went with.

It's always about context with political issues, but they captivate me. Everybody does it in their own interest, but sometimes that happens to coincide with what is best for the company. Case in point, Steve Austin probably shouldn't have been wasting his time with midcarders like Billy Gunn and Jeff Jarrett as they wanted him to, and probably shouldn't have been booked to lose to Brock with no build up for no reason as a punishment for burying creative on WWE.Com.

Should HHH have put somebody over during that big long reign in 02-03? Absolutely, and the numbers bear that out.

But in almost everybody's case, it's a mix of good and bad. I think that's why Rock deserves even more credit, you never hear stories about him refusing to lose or refusing to work with guys, he lost far more than any other top guy, and he still went on to be one of the biggest stars in the whole world.

The Rock is always the case I go to when someone tries to say wins/losses don't matter. Hell, the last time he was there full time as a face, people were sick of him. His face run before that quickly ended up getting the Cena treatment. And it was all because he was a shit-talker who couldn't back it up and no one wants to cheer a character like that. He probably could have stood to politic a little more and put his foot down to keep his character from turning to shit. He deserves all the credit in the world for becoming what he ended up being despite it.

WUT DA HAYELL?!

An über-rich movie star?

Jericho should probably politic a little more.

I don't think Rock being a "shit talker who couldn't back it up" was the reason he got booed. He just got a bit stale as a face, and it was time to turn him heel.

One example of some good politicking is Russo convincing Vince to extend the Chyna/Jarret feud in order for Jarret to get a larger payday.

A well booked face doesn't get stale over the span of a year or two. It was because he was booked terribly.

Well there's a few factors for one thing. First of all... over exposure.... every single week spouting the same catch phrases doing the same thing. Keep in mind, Hogan wasn't on t.v. every single week as a main fixture in the show. Maybe he was on superstars in those promo shots for house shows or whatever, but you get my drift. Week in, week out, Rock was there.

Also, he left for Hollywood for a hiatus, came back, won the championship, and most of the fans knew he was kind of on his way out, and he was ALREADY over exposed at that point, and fans kind of wanted something different from him. Thus, Hollywood Rock was born and he was awesome.

It wasn't wins/losses. You're trying to make your own narrative here, and it just doesn't add up.

And Cena gets booed all the time, especially when he was always winning and overcoming the odds.

Hogan in WCW got booed before he turned heel, and as has been discussed here, he wasn't exactly known for laying down for the 1-2-3. Sometimes it's just time to make a change.

I read what you wrote, its typical IWC, lifted from the Newsletters point of view.

Certain guys who were politicians get a pass because they have 4-5 star matches. The guys who dont, like Hogan and Nash, get buried online and in the sheets. Its standard fare. Ive read it all before. I just dont happen to feel the need to have the millionth debate about whether or not Bret was in the right to refuse the finish he was given. Because as we know the entire country of Canada would have went into a state of mourning if they had to see Bret do a JOB.

Its all the same issue to me regardless of the excuse. Promoter comes up with an angle, the top star kicks up a fuss, and says "no". Promoter then makes alternate plans. Its happened in every territory in every era, its nothing new.

I will say, the issue to me is not who has the better reasoning to balk at a finish, to me its just the act itself which is at issue, and proves that everyone plays politics at the top.

Was thinking Samoa Joe would have to be the exact opposite. Had his career sidetracked time and time again because he continually just went along with whatever stupid shit TNA gave him.

HBK might be the only guy The Rock never wanted to work with mostly due to the stories about the animosity between the two during HBK's first WWE run. Depending on how far back the stories are to be believed, its almost Austin-Jarrett levels in terms of animosity.

Assuming that animosity was gone by HBK's return, timing issues and the Rock leaving very shortly is probably why that never happened during HBK's second run.

Cena's "always winning" has been overblown to an insane level. As I've said before he loses more than any top face ever and even when he was winning more at the beginning of his run, after the JBL feud, he was starting to suffer from the paint-by-numbers booking.

As for Hogan... He was a top face for over a decade at that point. He didn't start getting met with crowds hating him a year after his face run began. A great, well-handled character can run out of things to achieve and get bland after over a decade. When it happens go the most charismatic/entertaining man wrestling has ever seen a year after his face run begins on two separate occasions, there's a problem.

Which once again is very circular. We have al discussed how everyone politics at the top, but we are discussing when it has hurt business and when it has been most egregious. The 5 star wrestler bit is nonsense, you are generalizing my statements because you think all of the iwc is the same. Take Nash, I could give a shit about his politicking because he was head Booker, the company has themselves to blame and Nash was just making himself top dog, and it's how hes always been.

And you keep going into this whole thing about whether Bret was right or wrong,and that's not what I'm talking about, I'm saying there were extenuating factors.

Hogans politicking at its best was good for business, at its worst, a desperate vindictive selfish man, doing desperate. Vindictive, selfish things that didn't even really benefit himself in the long run.

Same can be said for some others, but his often come across as the most ludicrous when k poking back, no matter what Dave Meltzer says. And I often defend Hogan.

Ignoring my over exposure and the difference in the characters. Well done.

lol Well put it all in one post, dipshit...

Was Rock any more overexposed than Austin? Austin was on TV every week, spouting the same catchphrases, talking the same shit. You know what the difference was? He didn't lose and look like a little bitch when it came time to back it up. And *gasp* the crowd didn't fucking turn on him. Do I need to name all the other guys who were a face for more than a year or two while being on TV constantly who DIDN'T start to get booed out of the building?

Not to mention you argued my point of well-booked characters not getting stale within a year or two by bringing up Hulk Hogan getting booed in 1995...

Who's writing their own narrative and ignoring things now?

I just wanna point out for the "fan's a dick" bunch, that was totally warranted. Lay off, fuckers. :fu:

MONTREAL :
People seem to think that Bret refused to lose because he was in Canada and it was his final night in WWE. Neither are true.

Bret refused to job to Shawn Michaels after Bret,as the champion, said to Shawn : I am willing to put your over clean, Shawn replied : I'm not willing to do the same for you.

Bret told this to Vince and then said I won't lose to the little fucker until he shows me some respect and puts me over first! - it had nothing to do with the home country thing. People are blurring the Hart Foundation storyline into the real reason.

Also, Bret still had about a month more left in his contract before he left. He was not leaving the same night - he was booked on raw and then all the way until 4th December. Montreal happened November 9th I believe.

This wasn't a case of politics (getting an unfair advantage or burying someone).

In the documentary Bret himself literally says "I'll drop the belt. Just not in Canada."

I'm kind of in the middle on this argument, but just to add my two cents to both sides, when it comes to the fans turning on Rock, if you can call it that, wouldn't say it's him losing so much as the nature of his character. He was a dick, even as a babyface, he was malicious, vindictive, obnoxious and insulting. Austin took no shit, far less to be rubbed the wrong way by.

With that said, I'm replying mainly because the Hogan thing is a little misleading - he was getting booed on house shows in 91, booed famously during the Rumble 92, and was getting mixed responses throughout 94 and 95 on live shows. Point being, Rock getting booed in particular instances was usually a result of circumstance: against babyface Austin in Texas as the hometown guy goes for gold after his big comeback, against Hogan in Hogan's best market in a special nostalgic moment in time, against Lesnar in New York when he was leaving and everybody knew it.

Now, I agree with your point about it taking longer for Hogan, but the business in general was slower moving back then anyway. There's a lot of changes that account for the reactions to Rock at the times they happened rather than he didn't win all the time.

Of course, the other hand being I do think he lost too much, but considering his success I wouldn't say it made a real difference in the end. He was so charismatic it didn't matter, but I hate when WWE points to Rock as a "see, Rock lost a lot and he was fine", because he's the exception, not the rule. Almost nobody ever in wrestling has been like that.

I'm on Bret's side all the way on Montreal, but it was still political. When your reasoning is the other guy won't do it either, or it's okay because a clause in my contract allows the right (which is the major point I do agree with, Vince gave him the power to veto, so he can't complain about the deal he signed), it's really not a far stretch from that to Hogan saying no to an angle because he doesn't think it's in his own best interest. Because ultimately it is - he didn't want to lose to somebody he thought wasn't worthy, but it's still using the ability to divert the planned course of business for a personal reason. Again, he was legally within his right, which muddies the water, but then again, Hogan has creative control in WCW and had the legal right as well.

Good shout. Shawn and HHH always had it out for Rock pretty early on, probably because he was a handpicked company guy in much the same way they were maybe? But Shawn messed with Rock enough that Rock wanted nothing to with him, but he still worked with him on occasion. Did the superkick angle on that episode of Smackdown, did the Ironman match, etc. Granted, not the same as working a match, but as you say, by the time Shawn was back wrestling, Rock was only really being brought in for specific angles. Shame in some ways, that could have been excellent...

To hb2k's point, I'm not saying wins and losses don't matter. Someone on the way up, like a Daniel Bryan or a Dean Ambrose needs wins to look legit. And they need to keep winning world titles and being involved in main event feuds and getting the better of heels (after a good build) to look strong.

The Rock on the other hand, was a "made" guy. Wins and losses didn't matter once he was established, the same as it wouldn't for Hogan, his reputation and magnetism were what mattered after the umpteenth title reign.

And hb2k essentially nailed what I was getting at. The business was slower in Hogan's day and he was an ULTIMATE good guy, he was best friends with every babyface, and kissed babies and shook hands. The nature of the attitude era was completely different, plus the Rock was a dick (kayfabe wise) and he was going hollywood (non kayfabe).

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Is Ottawa not in Canada?

And I find it odd saying how the opinion of Bret being down to drop the belt any time and anywhere but that night is "common IWC logic" is bullshit. I see more often than not people who go for the Vince "Bret screwed Bret" logic.

I personally think Vince is a giant dillhole and a bit of a psychopathic carny. A genius in certain ways all the same.

Though Bret is also a bit of a fucking nutter. anyone who wrassles the day after their brother died of kidney failure is out of their fucking mind.

The Bret/Shawn issue has to do with 2 things 1). Trust 2). Respect. It's really that simple when you break it down.

I friggin' hate when a guy like Vince Russo gets on there and says Bret shot down EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY because I think that is complete bullshit. Those possibilities were limited to what McMahon wanted to happen plain & simple.

If Bret really wanted to find out if he can trust Shawn in the ring, and Vince wanted Shawn to go over clean for the title, why not do a double pin first!?! Haven't they done shit like that before!?! They could have either restarted the match or concluded it the following night.

As far as Bret losing in Canada, I think the words used to describe that feeling are always misinterpreted. It was Bret's final PPV event, going against a guy that he has a personal issue with, which whom the company wants as the next clean champion. Bret not wanting to lose in Canada I think is a simple redirection of what he really felt which was he did not want to lose to Shawn in his final PPV event as the champion. Hence the reason why he says he'd lose to anybody else or lose to Shawn on Raw. Back then, PPV was a much bigger deal than Raw.

I still don't understand how people back Bret is that but to each its own.

Bret Hart is awesome that's why. So yeah.

I think you're wrong,

Bret was with the company up until In Your House , Springfield on 7th december 1997.

Raw was viewed by a much greater audience worldwide than Survivor Series.

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1:11:52... "I said 'Fine. If you want me to drop the belt, I'll drop the belt. But not in Canada'."

1:12:48... "I told Vince that it would be a blow now to me to beat me in Canada with the momentum that I have as the Canadian hero and it'll be a blow to most of the people across the country which ultimately will effect my going into WCW now."

He may have changed his story up later... but those words came straight from him at the time.

Cena is pretty close to Rock. The one thing about Cena though, is he rarely is asked to put someone over multiple times in a program. Usually plan seems to be give the new guy a win, then have John come back and ultimately win the series.

However, I will say he should never be criticized just for how he put over Brock at Summerslam the one year. That shows to me he is extremely confident in his own ability to outperform the rest of the roster and stay on top

I love it when Montreal gets brought up.

I hear you, and I hear your opinion, I just come at it a little differently.

My thing is you cant go back and re-write history. You dont know who was right when they were playing politics. I am 100% against Bret Hart in the whole Montreal scenario, but at the end of the day, Bret's refusal to do business and Vince's decision to counter that sort of made Vince the star that catapulted an era in wrestling. So at the end of the day, I guess Bret did the right thing. My thing is nobody knows who was right, who played politics the right way. People bring up Brutus all the time, but few people bring up that Owen was going nowhere before Bret got on top, Bulldog was stuck in the mid card, and the Anvil probably shouldnt have had a job in the mid 90s. Its not a coincidence that much of Bret's runs on top revolved around those guys. But few people put Bret in the same category as Hogan when it comes to playing politics. In my opinion, he's just as big of a politician. And I think Austin trumped both of them the more I hear stories about Austin.

Bret admitted to politicking to get anvil work. However it was conducive to good business. When Hogans politics were the very same, I'm right behind him.

The stories of austin are jarrett and lesnar right? Are there others? Are there 2 pages worth like with hogan?

And gorgeous dale newstead is pretty much the man in this thread.respect

Austin refused to work with Billy Gunn

I get both sides, but I think Bret sweat and bled, and put lots of guys over on the way up, and earned more respect than he received at the end of the day. A guy like the Undertaker is always given so much credit for being this fucking WWE stalwart, but Bret was the first. And unlike Taker, Bret didn't sandbag guys on the fucking regular like Taker did, non-stop for years (saying this as a Taker fan).

You're a polarizing guy, Gerty. You love the guys you love, you hate the guys you hate, and I'm sure in your head you don't see things black and white, but you post black and white. Could Bret have handled Montreal better, and not been a big moan to Vince about Shawn? Yeah, probably. But were Shawn and Vince not both impossible pricks to work with, constantly overlooking and shitting on every bit of sacrifice put forth by Bret? Most likely. I wasn't there, but let's get serious.

And to this day, everybody other than Billy Gunn thanks him.

Its a shame austin missed out on that billy gunn kiss my ass match

Surprised Kevin Nash doesn't feature more in this thread. He had the pencil in WCW for a while- surely his "love" for vanilla midgets was prominent at the juncture?

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Why does Shawn have to show him respect?

Bret was leaving the company. The normal thing you do on your way out of a territory is you put over some guys who will be left to carry the ball. Bret decided he was going to pick and choose. To me thats not right. Its not like Vince asked him to put over Savio Vega or Doink, it was HBK.

Nash for all his criticism when he was leaving put over Taker and HBK strong. No fuss, and he still went on to be a bigger star in WCW than Bret was.

The whole thing about losing another night in another town makes no sense. The big match was built for Survivor Series, you cant have the guy who is leaving the territory go over on the big PPV match. It was a outrageous demand by Bret, and Vince was backed in a corned because of it.

Brutus was a far more effective character for WWE than Anvil was.

Always knew there was something I didn't like about Austin.

Hogan outpoliticking Shawn Michaels at Summerslam 2005 in an example that comes to mind.

HBK made a mockery of that match, though.

He didn't want to go over, his suggestion was get out the match with a DQ (which had been done in two other PPV main events that year, so it wasn't an unprecedented request), lose the night before or lose it any other point between then and the December PPV, which was the original plan. The idea that Vince was backed into a corner was bullshit, and he only has himself to blame for being stupid enough to leave the title on a guy that he suggested sign with the other side, and allowing Bret the "reasonable creative control" clause in his deal that legally allowed him to veto something he felt could hurt him on the way out.

Again, Bret was clearly being difficult because he had a stick up his ass about Shawn, and that's really what it boils down to. But Vince's reaction was drastic and unnecessary, and on paper, completely retarded, because if he didn't want it announced the champion was leaving for fear of the damage it would do and the momentum it could give, this did just as much (in theory) to spotlight Bret, help WCW and hurt the WWF's image. It's a massive stroke of luck WCW ballsed it up and the Austin/Tyson element caught fire when it did, because December 1997 is a miserable month of television in the immediate fallout.

Pretty sure Vince just wanted to make an example of Hart in front of the largest possible audience that if you try to walk away from his company with his property, there WILL be consequences.

It's crazy because if Nash didn't leave there wasn't going to be a streak.

That has literally nothing to do with anything I'm talking about. And I never complained about Brutus at any point, unless it would be about him going over Mr. Perfect or his entire horrendous WCW run. Pretty sure Anvil never went over anybody of note, he was just an effective bit of muscle in the Hart Foundation, and the history he had with the Harts was relevant. You are just assuming things about my point of view, once more.

Thought maybe I said something crappy about Brutus? I don't remember, but I never compared them, or talked about Hogan helping out Brutus as a negative. I literally just talked about how I didn't like how Hogan treated Bret because I thought it was crap for business.

Your logic continues to be circular. I think you think you're putting forth some argument that hasn't been made a bajillion times before, whereas this is the EXACT same argument about Montreal that's been had a thousand times. And it has nothing to do with Bret having amazing matches. Whether you think Bret was right or wrong, it's pretty clear there were extenuating circumstances vs. Hogan just being a giant wang and not wanting to pass the torch. Also, keep in mind, Bret had already passed the torch to Shawn the year before. Bret had jobbed to Sid, and Vader as well, while also helping solidify Austin as a big time player. Hogan "passed the torch" to Warrior by jobbing clean (then proceeding to sandbag Warriors title run), but he never wanted to do the same for Bret, even once. And used Warriors title run (the one which he sandbagged) as a reason not to put over Bret. YET, he put over fucking yokozuna, who anyone and their mother knew especially as a monster heel, was NOT carrying the company.

As far as the rest of it, hb2k pretty much covered how Bret was willing to drop the title at any point other than that night to Shawn. But it's okay, we'll just keep running this ridiculous broken record.

Nash was a bigger star in WCW because he was the first guy to jump ship and by the time Bret came, nobody wanted him there, AND Nash had the book. Come on CyNick you're better than that!

interestingly Bret Hart had already for-filled the number of dates he was meant to work for the WWF, before survivor series. He didn't even need to show up. He could have told them "if the match is with Michaels , I'm not coming - go fuck yourselves." He showed up to try to find an ending that would satisfy both parties (ending in DQ and handing the strap over or having Michaels put him over then he would put michaels over clean)

He also had the law on his side with creative control clause.

Vince is an idiot, he had the same issue with Jarret and warrior - both held titles all the way to their last WWF appearance.

<font color=goldenrod>This isn't related to politicking really, but anytime Bret/Montreal gets brought up I laugh imagining what could have happened had Bret not gotten the lucrative WCW contract offer and therefore decided to milk the WWF for all it was worth with his 20 year contract offer.

Offering a 20 year contract to a guy who was about to turn 40 is just absolutely mad in any scenario. Even if you assume he'd have stayed healthy, how much longer would he have realistically been working a full-time schedule? I know there were provisions in the deal for him to transition to an office job at some point but still...just an insanely long commitment to make to anybody.</font>

I pray you are trying to be sarcastic. Otherwise,you are a dumb motherfucker