Jump The Shark Moments
 

So for this weeks podcast, we are going to be talking about classic "Jump The Shark" moments in wrestling history, and as always, we want your nominations for ones in your own wrestling viewing experience.

The question of course, is what moment was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you either stop watching a certain promotion, stop watching in general for a period of time, or that turned friends of yours off the world of wrestling, and why? Feel free to elaborate.

As always, the best contributions will be read on the show and you'll be credited accordingly. So what moment stands out for you as when a wrestling company jumped the shark?

EDIT - The show discussing Jump The Shark Moments in wrestling history, and your nominations, is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....arkMoments.mp3

When John Tenta literally became The Shark in WCW. He even changed that tattoo on his arm to a shark thinking that gimmick would go places. In hindsight, they should really have called him the Manatee.

Why don't you try and jump John Tenta, mmm?

Rollins constantly losing to Cena and WWE putting Brock in a match with Big Show at MSG instead of anyone else.

The Sting v Hogan Starcade match, particularly the finish. A whole year of Sting not speaking or wresting, finally gets in the ring, for the world title, loses clean. Then Bret Hart comes out for no reason, and inexplicably restarts the match, with Sting suddenly finding his wind and beating Hogan.

It was such a clusterfuck of a finish and poorly booked match that I officially gave up on WCW.

When every bitch and their brother was nWo. I was a guy who flipped stations during the monday night wars. Then, this got really overdone, and I'd stick with raw and catch/tape the nitro rerun.

When every hardcore match, WWF or WCW, degenerated into "Let us just throw a bunch of bullshit into the ring for no reason/only use one or two of those things, and fight outside the ring for awhile". You could get the "anything goes" vibe across without the stereotypical dumbness of what people *think* a hardcore match was. Became a piss break for me in either promotion.

Fake Razor and Fake Diesel. Might hage worked if they were masked wrestlers and didn't have to promo ever. But this wasn't the case, and just fucking stupid. Stopped watching WWF for a bit on that note.

Cena wins.

I am completely uninterested in any Cena match because he most likely wins. When he lost to Owens it was great but you knew he'd win the next two.
Bray wyatt vs Cena was a very interesting fued until lol Cena wins.

Over the years it's been the same thing. He only loses to icons like Rock or Lesnar even though he beats them half the time.

I get it, he is the top draw but he buries everybody. It's not like HHH burying everyone becuase he was a heal and the chase was what made it exciting. It's not like Hogan burying everyone because it's every week.

So to me Cena jumped the shark becuase lol Cena wins.

Saying Cena buries people shows a lack of understanding.

Mae Young giving birth. Took a fun angle (the absurd idea of mark henry and mae young having an affair) and make it cringeworthy TV.

<font color=goldenrod>The hardcore division was one of my favorite things about the Attitude Era, but then again I was a kid at that time and matches like that appealed to me.

As I've gotten older I've realized it was mostly terrible. And while the 24/7 rule allowed for some fun and unique backstage skits, it's impossible to watch any old WWF show from when that rule was effect and actually care about the Hardcore Title match. You knew it would always just devolve into a million run ins and the original champ would most likely end up with the belt after 5 title changes.</font>

People are tired of Cena winning.

Also, let us not forget that he was killed by The Nexus on the floor, then got up at 9 to beat a 10 count, and proceeded to Superman them all to "overcome the odds". That was a bit much, even for Cena.

It started as a noble concept, and was something different. The problem ended up being that that's what everyone "thought" hardcore wrestling epitomized was just aping New Jack's gimmick. It is akin to the whole idea that thinking wrestling fans on the internet today are the small circle of "basement dwelling virgins" from 1995, and not, say, everyone who likes wrestling and has a smartphone in their pocket.

<font color=goldenrod>I feel like the Nexus was the biggest "Jumping the Shark" moment for me in recent history. My interest in general just dropped like a stone by the time that whole debacle of a storyline had finished.

They took one of the most unique, hottest angles they've ever done and then just whiffed on the execution. Most people point to SummerSlam as the point that the angle lost all credibility (and by most accounts - including Cena himself, the Nexus should have gone over). But even in spite of that they still had numerous opportunities to salvage the storyline and botched it on each occasion.

There is no reason whatsoever that Wade Barrett vs. John Cena in a Title vs. Career match could not have ended up being the main event of WrestleMania 27. The outcome may be obvious as all hell, but who cares? It would have been the logical ending after months of a well-built story where Cena has had to act against his will serving Nexus for months. AND if they were dead set on doing Rock/Cena at WM28, you can still quite easily plant those seeds the next night on Raw.

But at least in this scenario you'd have wound up with Barrett as a legitimate, credible main eventer. Instead not a single member of Nexus got anywhere as a result of being in the group, which means it was a fucking waste.</font>

I was like wtf at that moment

Totally understand that point of view.

Saying he buries people shows a lack of understanding of the business.

I think the mistake they made with that angle was targeting Cena. None of those guys were ready to headline, but they were thrusted in a main event angle because it was against Cena. I think it would have been more effective as an upper mid card angle and let the guys develop from there.

If you compare that to The Shield, which was essentially the same idea (a group of brand new guys), you can see how The Shield was slowly elevated to the main event and it was far more effective. Plus Nexus was such a cluster with like 8 guys or whatever. Nobody could really stand out. Should have been a 4 or 5 person group from jump.

That said, many of those Nexus guys are still around. So in the long run, they were not hurt by what happened with Cena.

The idea that Barrett was ready to take the ball with Cena at WM27 is utterly absurd. The guy isn't even ready to headline NOW and its 5 years later.

How about Bray Wyatt? Far and away one of the creative and interesting characters they've brought up in ages. Completely stands out, cuts excellent promos. Good group built around him.

2013-2014 looked like it could be his year. Defeated Kane in his debut. Took on Daniel Bryan and beat him clean. Went over Reigns in the Shield v Wyatts match, then entered an interesting feud with Cena, only t lose that feud and ever midcard hell since.

He entered a useless feud with Jericho, who hasn't beaten anyone in of note in ages, feuds with Ambrose, who was already going nowhere after being used to elevate Rollins, got fed in an at the time one off with Taker, after carrying the entire build on his own, beat Ryback, which meant nothing, started a feud with Ambrose and Reigns again, only to be used as a feeder system to build Reigns back up. Maybe he's salvaged with the reviewed Undertaker program, but to this point, Bray not being the top heel in the company is ridiculous. He went from being one of, arguably their hottest act, to being a midcard jobber to the stars who loses every big match he's in.

Cena at Mania-lost
Taker at Mania lost
Reigns and Ambrose at Summer Slam-lost
Reigns at HITC lost

Funny how having two Mania programs as a heel against Cena and Taker is somehow seen as a burial.

Might as well, Wyatt should be the #1 heel by now. He should have gone over Cena and Taker. Now they are trying to make him relevant by taking Taker and Kanes souls when he should have taken Kanes when he debuted and Takers at Mania after he beat him.

When I discovered the IWC and it made me hate wrestling lol

So now he's what? The #2 heel? Oh the horror.

Nobody looks at the idea of keeping Bray Wyatt relevant for 15 years instead of 15 months.

Except me

Stay off of it and let me know if you enjoy sports entertainment more. I bet you will!

Seriously, if he was being wedged in the top heel spot the cries of "blowing their load with Wyatt!" and "forcing him down our throats! would be deafwning. Wyatt is being slowly tempered in the midcard, and NOT winning all of these feuds will add to his value in the long run. He isn't losing any credibility at all. Want proof? As many losses as he's had, he does one bit with Taker and suddenly the buzz is "TAKER VS WYATT AT SURVIVOR SERIES WHO WILL BE ON TAKER'S TEAM OMG THIS IS AWESOME."
You know who hardly ever got high level wins, let alone clear-cut feud wins? Jakes Roberts. That didn't diminish him at all. (Certain things did but a run of bad Mania matches and feud losses weren't it.)

#2 is a stretch if you ask me. They have presented weak and one of his own stable mates is presented stronger. And as far as being relavant if it wasnt for his promo work he wouldnt even be that.

Theo:

Exactly. And he doesn't lose to random guys. He loses the blowoff against guys like Cena and Reigns along with a one off against Taker. I don't think some people understand that's what a good heel does.

At some point Wyatt will have a babyface run. If he's plowed through everyone as a heel, what's the point of doing it again as a face?

I said this once or twice before, but if you read a lot of the stuff on here, nobody in the top half of the card should ever lose a feud. Except Cena. He should lose all of them.

He just came off a high profile program with Reigns and now is married to Taker. If he's not number 2 who is? Actually, you're right #2 is a stretch because Rollins is out. He's #1 now.

Jake also has one of the better winning percentages in history. Wyatt jobs on a regular basis.

Should have went over Reigns.

Apples and oranges

Everyone had a good winning record on TV because of enhancement matches.

Wyatt to me doesn't lose a ton....waits for the guy who keeps tracks of wins and losses to chime in.

This just seems like "bookings you didn't agree with" rather than "jump the shark moments"

Mae Young giving birth to a hand, Hornswoggle running through a "tunnel" painted on a wall like a looney toons character, the Eugene character, Robocop helping Sting etc all seem like they would be legit responses to this thread. Embarrassing, cringeworthy moments that are usually tried to be passed as comedy.

So then people could say Reigns was screwed over by jobbing to Wyatt right before winning the championship. Result would have been this post by someone luke Noid

Reigns: BURIED
WWE Championship: BURIED

Wins the thread

<font color=goldenrod>Oh bullshit. The man could cut a promo like nobody's business from the second he walked into a WWE ring. And in the ring, he was quite good. WWE wouldn't have been throwing him in main events against Cena and Orton for much of fall 2010 if they didn't think he could handle the spot. If WWE wanted to have the big Cena/Barrett blowoff at WrestleMania 27, it could have easily been done and would have been believable. And of course he doesn't seem like he can headline now...because they've given him precisely nothing to work with in that time.

His body betrayed him with injuries on a few occasions but beyond that they've never treated him as anything less than a midcarder. They stuck the KOTR gimmick on him and then immediately had him doing clean jobs to everybody.

But anyway...I don't think there was any way to have Nexus come in and go on a tear WITHOUT getting Cena involved. Why would Cena just sit back and allow a group to come in and destroy Raw without him intervening? The problem I feel was just rushing things too quickly. Once he got "fired" after Survivor Series he was back in a freaking week and single-handedly killed every member of the group in less than a month. And really once he got "fired" they booked themselves into a corner because they were never going to willingly keep him off TV, so they had no choice but to wrap things up quickly.

Instead had they just had Cena bite the bullet and unwittingly help Barrett win the belt over Orton at Survivor Series, they could have put the seeds in motion for the eventual WM 27 match and allowed the angle to work itself out naturally over the coming months. Cena would keep doing Nexus' bidding to the point where his friends (other faces) continually question his integrity, but Cena never goes full heel because you know his job is on the line and that he really has no choice.

Then at the Rumble he can have his proper "screw this Nexus bullshit" moment, and turn on his brethren during the Rumble match itself. Cena wins the thing and Barrett can no longer fire him since the Rumble winner is contractually guaranteed a title match at Mania. Hell during the time between the Rumble and Mania you can end up having Cena destroy the Nexus one by one like Orton wound up doing in the build to his Punk match. At least then it's not rushed and building to a big moment. And then of course Cena gets the win, Barrett is dethroned, and you go from there.

You really think people wouldn't have preferred a long-term, well-built program like that to Cena vs. Miz, which featured Miz being a complete afterthought in the whole build despite being the fucking CHAMPION? I loved the Miz at that time and even I thought that build was completely rotten, and a big part of the reason WM27 was completely forgettable.

Oh and as for the whole "they're still employed so Cena didn't hurt them" bit, that's not the point. It's not that many of them were hurt by being part of Nexus...it's that absolutely any of them could have been debuted at a later date in the gimmicks they're in now and be in the same exact spot. Nobody looks at any of them and says "oh yeah, that guy was a part of the Nexus" because the Nexus angle was a complete flop.</font>

<font color=goldenrod>Little People's Court was atrocious as well.</font>

Totally forgot about Nexus, probably because lol Cena wins.

Vince being the higher power and Vince being hornswoggles dad wereprime examples of Vince's character jumping the shark.

<font color=goldenrod>Feel like during the Attiitude Era 98% of the time a parent or somebody would come into my room while I was watching wrestling, it would ALWAYS be something raunchy.

I'll never forget my dad trying to do a nice thing and taking me to a house show in early 1999. And he was then mortified by seeing his 10 year old kid participating in "We Want Head!" chants. I thought everybody was just chanting it because we wanted to see Al Snow hit his opponent with the mannequin.</font> :(

I like the way you laid out the storyline, and I agree the booking painted them in a corner when they fired Cena. The fact is you can't have Cena off TV for extended periods of time, so once they pulled that trigger, Cena had to win. But yeah they could have timed things better.

For me watching as a fan, not someone who is biased towards Barrett, I never felt like he clicked as a top guy. There was something missing in his promos and his work. He always felt like a guy who was being shoved down our throats way before he was ready. It wasn't good enough to be a headliner at Mania. Miz was far superior, even though that angle between Cena and Miz ended up being terrible. However, it was always just meant to be a backdrop to kickoff Cena-Rock, which was obviously wildly successful.

Going back to Barrett. Imagine if Seth Rollins was pushed to main event Mania 6 months after he debuted. He would have failed because he wasn't ready. Barrett did what he could, but it wasn't enough. It's a lot to ask a guy to headline Mania that quickly. A select few could do it, Barrett wasn't one of them. I say this about a number of guys, but even today, watch his work. He's not ready to headline. He belongs exactly where he is.

And Reigns is? Barrett could have headlined Mania 27, won and be a top star right now but he's been up and down the card since then.

"Finger Poke of Doom" was the exact minute WCW jumped the shark.

Reigns is more polished in the ring. Plus it's a different thing headlining as a heel vs headlining as a babyface.

Bull shit Reigns is more polished in the ring. Barrett is a better in ring worker than Reigns. Barret doesn't have to rely on moves that are designed to get a pop.

No specific moment for WCW but probably somewhere during the time Jeff Jarrett was their top star. Fingerpoke of Doom might have been when I started to watch a lot more WWF than WCW at the time.

For the WWE, Triple H's "Reign of Terror" in general since at the time my college didn't have UPN so I saw very little of the prime Smackdown Six era while RAW was getting really boring during that period.

As much as I really hated watching Raw during that era, he really did make Batista off of that.

Lol you JUST described why Barrett isn't ready.

Amazing!

Can't believe nobody's mentioned it yet, but at the end of RAW one night in 2002 or 2003, Triple H showed up and said 2 words: Katie Vick.

Now, the storyline was as atrociously bad as it could be to begin with, but then they showed supposed footage IN A FUNERAL PARLOR with Triple H (in a Kane mask abd red shirt with "BIG FREAK'N MACHINE" on it) having sex with a cheerleader mannequin meant to represent Katie Vick....my poor, poor eyes and ears!

The only time ever rassling has jumped the shark is in WCW with Vince Russo and all the "worked shoots".... especially the Hogan stuff.

There have been a lot of "bad", "cringeworthy" stuff..... but the "worked shoots" and Hogan things weren't just bad, they were "destroying the genre"....

The moment I gave up was Bad Blood 2003, and I didn't come back until right before Wrestlemania 27. The HHH v. Nash match made me feel embarrassed, to see two guys who couldn't do anything right try every parlor trick they could to make a match look credible. This was in the midst of the vaunted "HHH reign of terror" and the product, on all levels, was just drab, boring and hard to watch. It was difficult to watch RAW and I moved on with my life. I've caught up since then on a lot of stuff, but the WWE has never truly gotten me back. I just feel that everything went to shit after WM 19.

The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment/mistake/egregious error in writing (edit) (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision.

If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody.

From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history.

The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

"IT WAS ME, AUSTIN!"
The whole Ministry angle was really corny and all but it was at least good storytelling. Say what you want but it made supervillian Vince into a sympathetic figure when Taker was going after his family, forcing him to crawl to Austin for help. Killed the angle dead in its tracks. SON OF A BITCH, indeed.

Austin's heel turn was ill advised but the first attempt COULD have worked, it was only in practice that it became a horrible idea. (Though some of the Taker/Kane bits were great. "Who was it that told Austin and HHH that besting up women and commentators made them badasses?") Th thing is that Austin's pre-Invasion rebirth as THE OLD STONE COLD could have justified it all, because the awesome moment where Freddie Blassie rose from his wheelchair & inspired Austin to take his +1 Pool Cue of Dearh to smite the Alliance wouldn't have had the same impact if Austin hadn't become a lost soul over the past few montths. Why they thought something that failed on the launch pad the first time would be any better in an even less believable scenerios is beyond me. At lea st we got the great matches with Austin, Jericho, and He-Who-We-Can-Apparently-Sometimes-Show-On-The-Network-Now. #still999

ORemember when Cena lost those early matches against Taker & Brock and everyone was wringing their hands like "o noes he iz burried now?" Look how that turned out.

<font color=goldenrod>Yep, Austin's mentioned numerous times that while he loved working as a heel, WM17 stands right with walking out before the Lesnar match as the biggest regret of his career. Says if he could do it all over again, he'd have audibled everything in the ring and surprise Vince with a Stunner at the very end, therefore making it appear that he used Vince's help just to get the belt back and sucker Vince in in the process.

It's an interesting point though. Austin turned heel at WM17. 13 months later, the company was re-named to WWE. And anybody I knew who once watched wrestling but has fallen out of touch with it still refers to it as WWF even though the "new" company name has been in place for over 13 years. It just kind of shows how many people completely phased out of wrestling right after WM17 or somewhere around then.</font>

What? No, Reigns can't wrestle so he has to pull off these moves that are designed to get a pop. I mean he's a power house that barley ever lifts someone. Barrett can wrestle and doesn't have to rely on phony pop moves.

The invasion angle....watched it religiously up 'til after that angle finished then and up til now it's been off and on....

Yes I do. Most people here will claim he came in on day one and dominated.

Few will talk about how he got saddled with B squared and managed to turn that into something positive.

Im a firm believer in talent rising to the top.

Who's a better wrestler Wade Barrett or Hulk Hogan?

<iframe width="470" height="365" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WI37V4Cqesg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Might make a small argument that the final episode of WCW Nitro could be an earlier jumping the shark moment for the WWE.

What should have been the ushering of a new era ended up being just another McMahon family feud that evolved into the Invasion storyline and Austin's betrayal of the WWE. Austin turning heel being due to the Vince-Austin feud having no real reason to continue once the threat of WCW was gone.

Ratings-wise, WWE lost around a third to half of what it had during the Attitude Era within that short period of time and never got it back.

When Nikki Bella fake lost to Charlotte on Raw, Flair comes out for the celebration with tears and all that, only to have it all taken back. Then they do the exact same thing on Sunday with Flair coming out with the tears and all that. That was when the Divas Revolution jumped the shark and I lost all interest in what could have been a hot division for months on end. The culminating moment of months of whatever build that was, was something that had already happened just six days prior. Back to bathroom breaks.

When Chris Benoit killed his family and himself. It was hard to watch wrestling for awhile after that happened.

Hate every time a TNA worker says that "He will be going off script tonight"
I feel like "The Greater Power should not existed or have just been Shane.

Very valid point, which I kind of alluded to at the end of my post. I think in all actuality, WCW dying and Vince buying it was wrestling as a whole jumping the shark because really, it killed the fun of it all and WWE didn't have to be all that good anymore. But I think the ultimate embodiment of that fact was Austin turning heel like any other wrestler, when in all actuality this guy was the biggest star in history, and one thing he should never had done until there was no other option, maybe years and years down the line, was side with Vince McMahon.

Think about it, it took Hulk Hogan (including his AWA days) from like 1983 or something to 1996 to turn heel, and he only turned heel when he really wasn't over as a face anymore. I know it was a different time and slower moving, but jeez have some integrity Vince! You won't turn John Cena heel, who gets booed out of the building (though I can see where he's coming from), but you'll turn Steve Austin heel only 4 years after he started his face run.

This thread makes me think of when Batista came out during the Slammys and did the interrupting Kanye bit. Pretty sure it was like, 6 months after the original "event."

Not sure if that fits here, but I keep thinking of it when I read this thread.

I didn't like the decision but I understand why it was done.

Austin was winding down and they felt like they needed to do something different, something shocking. Part of the failure was bad luck. HHH had been built up as someone who could turn face. The Austin heel turn and alliance with HHH would have worked much better if HHH didn't tear his quad and turned face. After Hunter went down and Rock disappeared, they went the comedy route. I think the bigger mistake was making Angle a comedy character as well. I was always wonder how big Angle could have been as a legit American hero if he was a serious fighter instead of a guy who drank milk and looked goofy. Nobody could have predicted it, but 9/11 could have pushed a legit badass Kurt Angle over the top.

As for The Invasion, looking back I think WWE gets blasted unfairly for that booking. The WCW roster available to them was dogshit. In no way would it make sense for WWE to allow legit icons of the era to lose to guys like Booker T and DDP. Yeah they could have dumped money at the real stars, but doing so would have screwed up their own payroll. Oh Nash gets paid double and works half the dates, I want that too. Before you know you recreated WCW where the real stars don't go on the road. In the long run I honestly believe that would have crippled their business.

I know people like to put on their fantasy booking hats and pretend like things like money and morale are not important, but they are. So in my mind Vince made the right call long term. The other factor is people always say they should have let WCW come in and dominate WWE. But those people don't understand branding. WCW allowed their brand to be tarnished by the nWo. Nash talks a lot about how the booking at the time was to build more and more heat. Most so called experts say that's how WCW v WWE should have been booked. When you look at how little value the letters WCW had post nWo you will see Vince made the right long term call burying then.

I understand both decisions. But in both cases, they were the wrong decisions.

As far as Austin goes, I get turning him heel as a wrestling character, opening up other opportunities. But there are intangibles being drastically ignored in all of it, namely that Austin wasn't just a wrestling character to a lot of people. At the time I even agreed with the move, but something about it killed the heart and soul of the company. Not just the bad luck of it all, but everything else as well.

Regardless of what stars you had, you can still book a decent angle instead of McMahon-athon. And slowly but surely, they could have signed more stars.... hell, they signed the nwo in 2002 not much long after the invasion was over.

What the problem was and still is, is a lack of patience and foresight.

I think they should have let Heyman be the leader of the invasion, keep Steph out of it and Shane could still "own" WCW but not do in ring promos (although I don't think he did many).

I think Austin should have turned heel at Mania 17 but instead of aligning with Vince give him a stunner too.

And as far as "burying guys" being the right move. If you bury people, what good does beating anyone that is buried do for anyone? That is wrestling 101 CyNick. Come on, an all knowing god such as yourself should know these things ;)

I thought "jump the shark" was more something ludicrous or over the top that signalled the end of a particular show?

To stick with that definition, I will go with Warrior/Hogan in WCW and the infamous appearing in mirror. Not only was it sad and weird, but that fact that Hogan, fans and commentators could see Warrior but Bischoff couldn't, was baffling and showed where their writing was going at the time...

But like you said you thought turning him was a good idea. It was an era where everything moved quickly. Austin wasn't going to have a 10 year run on top as a babyface like Hogan. As it was they had maybe 2 years left with him. Again in hindsight it was a bad move. But I also remember reading the sheets and being on places like this and reading "its getting stale, glass breaks, stunners, austin vs vince". I think it didn't work primarily because Austin didn't have enough babyface stars to work with.

Sure they signed guys when their contracts were up or at a point where signing them wouldn't upset the applecart. It's all tied into the Invasion angle. How do you realistically put a WCW crew led by Booker T and DDP over guys like Austin, Rock, Taker, Hunter, etc. Not to mention the guys on the next tier like Jericho, Angle, Hardys, Benoit, etc. The only way to create a believable story was to utilize characters the audience already saw as stars (Austin, Steph, Shane, etc) and then hope a few of the new WCW talent would get over. Really it ended up only being Booker T who stood out as a legit upper mid card talent.

And even when they brought in guys slowly, you saw their warts. Steiner was a disaster. Scott Hall was a wreck. Hogan had to be sheltered. Goldberg was great but had limited dates and never seemed to like the business. They got a little bit of mileage out of everyone and it, but none of those guys really made a huge difference. It wasn't until Cena came along a few years later that the company was saved from spinning their wheels. I'm just not sure booking wise how you turn guys like Lance Storm and Kanyom into guys who could hang with Austin and Rock.

Thing is Shane was over back then. Steph was just starting to get comfortable as a TV character in an authority figure. I hear your point, but I think they both added value.

Watch him and Vince at 17 and tell me he wasn't over. So it's not like he was some random cold character.

And Heyman was involved and brought real passion to some promos. So it's like you already had him there doing what you needed him to do.

I hated that too, but to play devils advocate that kind of stuff is done in movies and nobody bats an eye

Sometimes it's necessary

At that time they had TONS of talent. They really didn't NEED anyone from WCW. All they needed was to put WCW on the shelf, brag about killing them off to show superiority, and organize their tape library for future profits. Any bonus money from a WWF V WCW on air program was bonus. Which they got from the Invasion PPV.

But this idea that a faction of guys led by guys like Lance Storm should do anything but go under is absurd to me. Like who would you have had go over Austin (inagine he was represting WWF) to establish WCW? There's nobody close to making sense in that side.

The reality is the war was won long before Mania 17. The fans knew that.

OR it is one of those things where the more hyperbolic statement is the easier way (albeit incorrectly) to explain a situation. When most people say that, they don't necessarily mean John is being an asshole and politicking himself to remain on top. They mean him being booked to win all the fucking time is greatly aiding in the lack of perception of "upper tier" talent, as any steam "wrestler x" had hits a brick wall affer being fed to Cena.

The word chosen was bury. If we're going to just use words incorrectly were going to have a tough time communicating.

But that aside, for the top babyface in the territory he loses a TON! So the statement is competely wrong.

The angle clearly didn't work out for them because it ate shit. If you're just going to bury a bunch of guys then don't do the angle. There's lots of ways around how everything went other than just putting Lance Storm over Steve Austin clean, it just required some outside of the box thinking. Fact is, the product has never had the same amount of steam since, and it's really hard to argue that. I mean I'm sure you will, but it's not really debatable. X7 really was the apex. Vince lost his edge afterwards

They could have added a stip to a PPVevent where if the Alliance won they would hold ownership of smackdown (WCW Smackdown). Then you could do the brand split a bit sooner, have some people jump to WCW and hold off for a stronger invasion next year.

I don't think he lost any booking prowess. I think what happened is somewhere along the way he decided it was best to move the company in a more kid friendly direction. I mean if by having edge you mean he did the Satanism angles, Beaver Cleaver, and an angle centred around a man's penis being cut off, I'll take the stuff today thanks. At least I'm not embarrassed turning on the TV when its on.

The biggest difference to me is the performers were better and more importantly hungrier than most of the guys today. I've said this before but the Attitude Era was like having the 70s Montreal Canadiens and saying the coaching was superior. No, it's that the players were a bunch of hall of famers, which is nearly impossible to replicate. Look at the roster at WM 17 and look at the talent today and tell me the roster today is just as good.

The angles themselves, really not much different then compared to today. It's just now we don't have guys killing themselves with chairs and stupid falls, we don't have the bad language (which I admit i thought it was cool...of course I was 16 then), and we have girls being athletes rather than strip club wannabees. Maybe that was "edgy", but I'm an adult, I don't need my sports entertainment to be porn or a live action slasher flick.

That terrible branding. That's what everyone suggested, hell I probably suggested that on here in 2001. But it was a bad idea. Thankfully Vince had the foresight to see the importance in keeping his shows branding in tact. It's not just a flip of a switch to change SD to "WCW SD" only to change it back in 18 months. And then do you have a tour under the WCW banner? Is WWF coming to town? Oh its "WCW", they are shit, no thanks.

I don't think the story lines are as good today as they were back in 1999, but they are better than the simplistic shit that was taking place in 2007-2009 of "I want the title, I will beat you"

I still don't want to devote 3 hours of my Monday to wrestling though, I might check out the PPV when it comes by though, the tourney is intriguing and might put them in a good direction depending on the outcome.

If you build a good product on TV then people will want to see WCW Smackdown. Put Hogan as a headliner of the show and people will want to go to the house show. Have Rock be "drafted" to WCW, people will show up to watch the Rock.

Might have been a possible idea had the WCW tryout match involving Buff Bagwell and Booker T not bombed badly a few weeks into the early Invasion period.

Ended up both killing the original plans for the brand split and the Invasion itself once Vince panicked. The original plans had WCW coming out well enough from the Invasion to setup the brand split era and their control of Smackdown. RAW still stays as the flagship show but Smackdown gets treated a lot better than just as an afterthought it was during most of that era.

Lol at CyNick.

I'm sure you guys are going to address Starrcade '97, Kevin Nash beating Goldberg, the Fingerpoke of Doom, Vince Russo WCW World Heavyweight Champion, David Arquette WCW World Heavyweight Champion, etc. That company almost doesn't need to be touched on.

The Stone Cold heel turn and the Alliance angle are technically the correct answer for the WWF's side of things. I couldn't have said it better than Gorgeous Dale, but if you're going by what jumping the shark actually means, then it's hard to argue with business spiraling after this point in time and never getting back to what it was.

Honestly, Roman Reigns winning the 2015 Royal Rumble felt like a shark-jumping moment to me. It certainly damaged my enthusiasm for professional wrestling, and it still hasn't gotten back to where it was.

Stone Cold heel turn was good because he was actually entertaining then

I was thinking the other day that Alberto Del Rio's character in WWE jumped the shark when he didn't win the World Heavyweight Title at WrestleMania XXVII. I liked Del Rio when he first showed up. He had the cocky swagger that was backed up by crisp in-ring performances, often done with a literal wink. He submitted Rey Mysterio in his first televised match on SmackDown, and would later do some cool things, like smacking the urn out of Paul Bearer's hands in a promo leading up to TLC that year. I liked that because it was some intriguing heel vs. heel interaction, and it highlighted that Del Rio believed in himself and was afraid of nothing. Then he won the 40-man Royal Rumble...and then lost to Edge.

Maybe his character could have been salvaged afterwards -- reflecting on his loss and becoming more dangerous or humble or something -- but after he did lose, it felt like all the reasons for the character to be cocky and confident disappeared, and it felt like he never got back to that level, even after winning Money in the Bank, four World Titles and recently returning to defeat John Cena cleanly.

Yeah, but it crippled the show, bruh.

I'm glad I didn't list Christian being the jumping the shark moment for the brand extension, because that would have really broken your heart, Locky. :(

For me it's Raw going three hours.


That's the point when I stopped watching.

That's definitely a very notable one. It marks a point where I actually got exhausted by professional wrestling content.

Anyone want to touch TNA? They've had a few noteworthy examples. I think Bischoff/Hogan is the technically correct answer for them though.

Jumped the shark way before that.... Maybe with Triple H getting drafted to Smackdown and then like a dozen guys being traded to get him back.... or just after the first few when it became "clear" that they would just draft up and coming Smackdown rasslers to RAW.... and then give back from RAW former SD guys that RAW used up and killed....


Christian going to ECW was a pretty dumb move, though....

That draft with Triple H and Jim Ross heading over was pretty good. Triple H didn't spend enough time there, but I don't think it was a jumping the shark moment. Maybe when they started doing the Supershows or running ECW alongside SmackDown?

The Supershows were pretty much the jump the shark moment for the brand extension.

Or maybe ECW was.

Probably his best singles run though. Just saying.

Look I got to see him live with a belt around his waist. BACK OFF.

<font color=goldenrod>Yeah I loved Christian's ECW run. Then again I loved most things about WWECW. Kinda made me realize that one hour is the perfect amount of time to watch professional wrestling (also why I hope NXT never goes to 2 hours aside from the live specials).</font>

Christian actually got to talk as a babyface in ECW. Well, at least once I can remember.