Why WWE doesn't Want To Make Stars. Another outstanding commentary from OTRS.
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wsFkBABOyJM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


This guy hits the nail on the head again.

racist

I would ban all racist posters if I was still a mod

:y:

Make TPWW Great Again....

No racists
No backyard sports entertainment.

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none" src="http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2016/08/WWE-SummerSlam-2016-Finn-Balor-Seth-Rollins-850x560.jpg">

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none" src="http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/tumblr_ocpcla5njc1qksbhvo1_1280-1472551578-800.png">

To be fair, the Universal Title really doesn't mean shit.

It's still a top title on its respective brand. It's still the main event belt for its roster. That means something.

It's an achievement award.

Well yeah isn't every title?

I'm sure the belt means something to the guys that go out there and bust their ass.

I'm just waiting for the "ever since I was a little boy, I wanted to be the Universal Champion" promos.

Does it mean as much as being the actual World Champion. The actual World Champion right now is either AJ Styles or Brock Lesnar, depending on how you look at it.

Ya, it does not mean anythkng. It is just the main title on the show that has the most wrestling fans watching on a weekly basis. No big deal. Now if Owen were the ROH champion then it would he a big deal because of the 100 fans that watch it would appreciate how awesome their title looks.

The champions are Kevin Owens and AJ Styles because each holds the top title of his brand.

What championship is Brock Lesnar holding right now?

He has the prestige of walking in and basically making either of them look like they don't belong in a wrestling ring with him. He has a prestige of being the biggest active star in the industry (could be debatable if you include The Rock). If Kevin Owens vs. Seth Rollins was taking place at the same event as Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Orton II, which do you think would headline? Exactly.

That doesn't make him an "actual world champion." He's a special attraction since he wrestles 4 times a year. Of course he'd headline. It wouldn't make sense to bring him in once a quarter and put him in the middle.

Lesnar is the modern day Andre the Giant.

Noid, we get that you think that the title is ugly with a dumb name. It's nothing to get cranky about, though. It's there as the top title on the flagship show. Maybe you should take a nap or something.

Yeah, I'm so disillusioned with wrestling at the moment. It doesn't make sense and it seems like everything is designed to cool people's interest. I'm thinking about taking a break from everything. The idea of coming back a few years down the track and catching up on things historically could be a nice little surprise. It'd be a wonderful feeling to come back in three years and see that Cesaro is the World Champion at WrestleMania and a wonderfully charismatic heel, for example. It's just hard to give up something that I love so much just because it has been really cruel to me over the past few years.

But then I think: When was wrestling actually really good? There have been periods where NXT was something I would look forward to every week, or heading into WrestleMania XXX where Bryan and Cesaro were huge stars (but not as huge as they should have been) and that sort of thing -- but then it all gets pissed away. Even the stuff we remember as good wasn't that good, was it? It makes me think that I possibly shouldn't be so critical of what's in front of me at present because it might one day have its own nostalgia value, but it's just so terrible to me. I dunno.

And I'm not the only one who thinks so. Wrestling is in the fucking toilet at the moment.

Validate yourself however you feel you need to, but I've really been enjoying it lately. I'm not the only one who has been, either.

I won't argue that wrestling is at any kind of peak but I enjoy the likes of Ambrose, Rollins, Owens, Wyatt, Charlotte, Sasha, and Becky, and even more established guys like Miz and Ziggler are finding new relevance. Cena has a good, non-smothering role, Orton is easing into a comfortable veteran status and Lesnar shows up to do his thing when needed. A few more ingredients stirred into the current mix could really make this a great product.

Wrestling is probably better than its been since 2000.

Everything is amazing besides having Finn Balor and Owens being the Uni Champion. Shit it dumb but overall the product is solid.

Yeah, I've got numbers though. You've got a niche. People shitting on each other has a niche.

This is what really depresses me. I'm trying to think of a good year. There have been good periods, but nothing that was really sustained. I'm just so burnt out on how...meaningless everything is.

Looks like Noid went full circle and has turned into Kane Knight!

I'm just a reverse CyNick.

Smackdown was good in the mid 2000's but Raw was unwatchable.

Honestly, this is what got me to start getting into wrestling history 3 years ago. I spend my time scouring the net for old WWF shows from 1977-86 and I enjoy the hell out of it. I have over 150 -200 shows from 77-86 saved on my hard drive. I'll watch what's going on with guys like Slater but other than that my time devoted to wrestling is spent on doing research and uncovering old shows and matches.

Just came across Kevin Von Erich and Kerry Von Erich's first Madison Square Garden singles matches from 1980 and a MSG show from 1982 with Pedro Morales beating Don Muraco for the I.C title in a no holds barred match.

Yeah, SmackDown has basically kept me a fan over the years, I think. Holy fuck was Triple H's heel run tedious. Actually, his face run fucking sucked too. Part-time Hunter has made people forget how shitty full-time Hunter was, I think.

SmackDown itself has hit bumps though. I remember parts of 2008 I enjoyed on both RAW and SmackDown, although I have to concede how meaningless that year ultimately was.

I naively thought that 2014 WWE was going to turn a real corner. The most over act in the company had become the World Champion, Triple H was destroyed in the opening match, Kane and The Outlaws were basically squashed by The Shield, Cesaro had won the Andre Battle Royal and had a Hogan moment with Big Show and got the literal rub from Hogan, the streak ended and Paul Heyman carried that energy with him into a partnership with Cesaro, Bray Wyatt lost to Cena but set himself up as a major player.

Holy fuck, was I wrong...

Fuck numbers. Justin Bieber does numbers. That doesn't make him great.

I never claimed wrestling was doing great business right now. I'm just saying that I am really enjoying it as a fan these days. It's really easy to when you don't concern yourself with numbers. They don't appear to be in any danger of folding, so what could I possibly have to worry about?

No, but it is a reasonable measure of success. You can like eating shit for all I care, but I can say that I don't. We are both allowed to have our opinion, but if you were to try and make a case for it, I can at least point to things like stats on why eating shit isn't the best thing for you. Go ahead and have your opinion. I'm glad you're enjoying it -- that immediately makes you happier than me with your television choices right now, but you only have that opinion. I can at least back up my opinion with the fact that I am at least part of the majority who would rather not eat shit on a weekly basis; I just love wrestling at its core too much.

Oh, and Becky Lynch. I love Becky Lynch.

Why does everything have to be so dramatic with you. Ratings are down so people that like what they're watching are eating shit? Come on. If you don't like it so much spend your time doing something you like instead of coming off so obnoxious like you have been lately.

And if you "love wrestling at its core too much" you'd realize the wrestling is better than it's ever been. Your problem is you're still looking for the engaging story driven content on WWE, when you are not going to find on a PG show. Yes the booking is bad, but what do you want? It's a PG show. Breaking Bad, Game Of Thrones, Better Call Saul etc. are all loved for their storytelling, how many of those shows are PG?

If they were to somehow get Lesnar on a full time contract and start using him on a weekly basis and overexposing him, Noid's point would still stand. He'd headline because he's an actual star. Owens, Rollins, Balor, Styles, etc. are not.

The idea that writing can't be good because it's a PG show is just ridiculous. Come on. What about PG prevents good writing exactly?

Rock and Austin were still around full time for a couple years after 2000. So this is certainly not true.

For a few years I'd mostly tune out on Raw with it just being background noise, or just stop watching it altogether. I would normally tune in to the PPVs which as standalone shows have tended to be good. I didn't watch SmackDown at all for years because it felt pointless beyond measure.

I started watching weekly television again after the draft and have mostly loved it, especially SmackDown. SmackDown flies by for me. Raw still plods along at points and I could see myself phasing it out again, but SmackDown has just been wonderful.

Overall I feel engaged as a fan for the first time in years. I actively want to see what happens next with most of the main storylines.

I enjoy wrestling, so I post about it with other people who enjoy wrestling on a message board, mostly because a lot of my real life friends aren't into it. The last thing I need is to have people HERE trying to tell me how stupid wrestling is too.

It's not impossible, but since WWE has been PG how many stories have driven you to watch Raw every Monday while the story was going on? Maybe the pipebomb era til the week Punk came back after he won the title. That's not very much for how long it's been PG. And I also said it because how many other PG shows have won you over like Breaking Bad or the Attitude era did? That was more my point then "It's impossible to write compelling tv that's also PG." But it is very hard to do so.

Guy in the video is an obnoxious know it all twat, who trys way too hard at his attempts at humor. Like pretty much all wrestling youtubers.

Except Steve and Larson. Those dudes are actually pretty fun to listen to because they (gasp) have fun watching wrestling.

Not a lot has been very compelling since the PG era started but it has very little if anything to do with the PG rating. Wrestling HAS thrived outside of just the attitude era and there have been plenty of critically acclaimed TV shows and movies that were PG. It's a ridiculous excuse. WWE's problem is with making the characters credible an interesting. That's not hampered all that much by the inability to have them say naughty words.

PG does not have to equal 3rd grade toilet humor(that's more Vince's perception and sense of humor than anything else) It also does not mean you absolutely cannot do certain things you can still do them you'd just have to be creative in your presentation (Case in point) MLP has a lesbian couple a and has an episode dealing with the stages of grief after someone dies. Its a kids show but they pulled off any way. The big problem with the WWE is that the creative team is only Creative(ish)

The wrestling has been off the charts though I suspect thats more HHH and the fact that Vince can't just put giant immobile roid monkeys in the main event anymore and expect fans to eat it up.

I'm not saying it has to equal 3rd grade toilet humor. But with what we have now in creative apparently story driven content is a thing of the past. Or Vince and company would've changed their tunes and gotten someone else to do it. My point was that since the attitude era, in the pg era I haven't really found anything "can't miss" besides that summer of Punk. So I don't see what Noid is really expecting. It's been like this for over a decade...

We are also not their target audience anymore what you think of as can't miss tv and what that child who buys John Cena merch considers can't miss TV are going to differ.

Also this

I agree with this as well, something I should've also mentioned to Noid.

WWE doesn't seem to know who their target audience is. They seem to try to cater to everybody so nobody is fully either ignored nor satisfied.

I'm satisfied.

The thread title is preposterous, though i have not watched the videp. The WWE is dying to make new stars. The problem is they dont have any on their roster.

I disagree. CWC disproved that. They can make a big impact used the right way.

Im willing to wager we dont agree on what a star is

Over=/= star

Lol the CWC wrestlers will not be stars, get outta here. Wrestled in front of 500 neckbearded that cheer anything.

That was hilarious.

The talent to make new stars is there. They just have a ton of silver medal wrestlers that have yet to really break out like Punk or Bryan did. All a matter of putting them in compelling angles.

I think you're misunderstanding. We're not enjoying the product and then looking at the numbers and using the numbers as proof that most others aren't enjoying the product either, and as a result the product = shitty currently. We're not looking at the numbers to determine whether or not we're enjoying the product or the quality of it.

I liked what I saw of the CWC. I'm a fan of cruiserweight wrestling returning. But how the hell is the CWC even being discussed in a topic about making stars? lol

How many legit cruiser weights became stars besides for Rey?

Depends on what you mean. Jericho was skinnier when he was a cruiserweight.

Did you just admit the booking was bad? And that the stories aren't engaging? Thank you for proving my point.

The wrestling is not the best it's ever been, in my opinion. This does come down to subjective taste, but the WWE style bugs me. The "everyone kicks out of everything" style ruins the drama for me. The 50/50 booking of winners and losers doesn't help with things, but guys are also very 50/50 in the ring too. I'm sorry, but give me Shawn Michaels over Kevin Owens any day. You might say "unfair comparison," but Kevin Owens is in the top guy position now. It's time for him to be a top guy.

And I completely disagree with you on the PG point. Just because something is aimed at children doesn't mean it has to condescend. The best children's movies are beloved by adults too. If the WWE were a children's movie, it'd be one of those shitty ones with a CGI dog wearing sunglasses and dancing around to a pop hit from the early 2000's.

Also, more children would have been watching when wrestling was "cool." When their older brothers or the rebel kids at school liked it, I bet you it got more attention than John Cena hamming it up to them gets. I know his relationship with charity is very important and he's a great man, but the idea that you need to be the fucking Wiggles to appeal to younger demographics is just wrong.

This is a very good point, but the WWE doesn't really seem to hit the target demos it is after anyway. Most people watching are people that would have watched during the Rock 'n' Wrestling period, or the "neckbeards that cheer anything" as Gerty hilariously put them.

I rephrase my point about appealing to these demos not necessarily meaning that there needs to be overt pandering. Kids know when that shit is going on. A true enough point about what the WWE is trying to do though.

I agree that they don't have any on their roster. I also haven't watched the actual video. I will say that I can slightly understand what might be meant behind the idea that the WWE doesn't want to generate stars though.

Well, they want everybody to be a star within the WWE framework. Curtis freakin' Axel got to appear in a movie. They want the brand to be the star, however. After losing a bunch of his top stars full-time, Vince seemed to get a little spooked about guys out-growing the WWE. This seemed to really boil over with Bobby Lashley. Since then, no one has really been given the rocket. AJ Styles might be the only guy since Lashley, but even he had to do duties at WrestleMania.

But with that being said, I was listening to the most recent SCG Radio and Mark Henry beat The Rock at Judgment Day 1998 just prior to The Rock becoming WWF Champion, so maybe it's a thing that Vince has just always liked doing? You're not going to be a star, you're going to be HIS star, dammit!

You mean to tell me that Scotty 2 Hotty wasn't a mega-star?!? Damn you, Destor!!!!

I do actually get what you're saying here. TJ Perkins felt like a star, I'll give you that much. But that's within that little CWC bubble. He's not about to crossover into the mainstream consciousness or anything though, come on. He'll be an over and critically acclaimed portion of RAW each week, like X-Pac in 1998, but just not watched by as many people.

I've been looking for a way to articulate why I bring up the ratings. Thank you, BCZ.

If I weren't enjoying the product but ratings were going through the roof, I'd still not be enjoying it, but I could concede that it seems to be working for a larger amount of people. I only bring up the ratings as a counter-measure to "Well, I think it's really good." You're allowed to, but that's not to say that it's evidently compelling television outside your personal opinion. More people watching =\= good, but viewers dropping off makes a very clear statement about what people are thinking.

If we're going 205lbs and under? No one.

I liked what I saw of the CWC, but I find it weird to have cruiserweights back and have them billed as cruiserweights while you're trying to push Sami Zayn as an upper-card guy. The 205lbs weight limit does exclude some guys like Seth Rollins and Dolph Ziggler who would have been cruiserweights in the WCW days, but it's all a bit odd to me. We're supposed to buy Rollins fighting Kevin Owens, yet Rollins fighting Cedric Alexander is supposed to be some sort of cross-divisional fight?

The matches will be a lot of fun, and I'm hoping they find a way to differentiate themselves from the rest of the roster somehow -- adding a bit of isolated spice to things -- but it's just weird.

I'd rather have Johnny Gargano & Tommaso Ciampa remain premier tag team in NXT (which looks to still be the plan anyway given their CWC promo) and sign the dudes worth a damn from the tournament. That Cedric Alexander cut weight for this thing is just really weird to me.

I feel like this guy's video is actually spot on. Granted I will concede that perhaps there are no stars on the roster currently, I'll also say that I think stars also have to have great stories and characters too in order to become those stars, both of which they have been lacking consistently in WWE for years now. Dean Ambrose I feel is a great example of a guy who could've been a huge star had he not had the restraints of a hyper-scripted environment that watered down his character and had he had great, credible guys to feud with in engaging storylines.

The guy's video basically points out though that because Vince and co. gets most of their wealth from the value of their stock, there's no incentive for them to 1. attempt to let people become big stars like Rock, Hogan, Austin, Lesnar, etc., and 2. it's more valuable to them for the WWE brand to be the #1 star because individual stars can leave, get injured, retire, be difficult, stupid, etc.

That sounds about right. :y:

Man, I've become really down on Ambrose lately. He's my favorite member of The Shield, so I'm glad he got to win at Battleground and that he did get a WWE World Title reign, but it felt like odd timing. I enjoyed his Backlash match against AJ Styles and his interaction with Cena on SmackDown though. I like him a lot better without the belt.

What are we saying is a "star"? There's a bunch of guys over the years that have been big in wrestling, but very, very few who crossed over to be legit mainstream attractions. You've got Hogan, and Rock, with Batista on the cusp. Who else is known outside of the bubble of sports-entertainment; which I'll extend to UFC.

Lesnar is a star in wrestling and UFC but you'd struggle to get an Everyman to came him in a line-up. Austin had mass appeal in the 90s and has had some success in movies/tv but he's nowhere near the level of Dwayne.

That's 3 people in over 50 years.

You've got guys like Cena who branch out but his tv show was a dud, his movies have never had mass appeal, his appearances on award shows are limited to kids (his target demographic), or sports (a world that WWE already has a foot in).

Guys like The Rock are 1 in a million.

You've got that level of star like Bret, Shawn, Goldberg, Warrior, Jericho, Edge, etc that are "big" in wrestling terms but hardly made a splash outside of wrestling but came up in a time when there was a bonefide mainstream level star on the card. Granted there's no "tentpole" star at the minute but like I said there's been 1 of those every 16 years.

I think I'm done posting in hre.

When it comes to discussing "stars," I think you'd have include Austin in the conversation. Andre the Giant probably deserves a mention too. I think then you move down to your Savage, Piper, Undertaker, Warrior, Flair, Nash and Hart level -- they exist in the mainstream consciousness, but just how recognizable are they? I honestly get stuck on knowing where to insert Shawn Michaels into things. I honestly never heard anyone talk about him outside of wrestling conversations, and given that he was gone from 1998-2002, he missed the true money period. He's one of the biggest stars within wrestling, but his success is more an acclaimed one. Goldberg is almost the inverse, because he's not so acclaimed, but is one of the biggest draws pro-wrestling has ever had, just not for a sustained period.

John Cena is well on the way. :y:

I would simply classify a star as someone who is a major draw and has mainstream appeal that can bring in new fans all on their own. You can put their name on the top of a WrestleMania card and no one's gonna be like "THAT'S the main event of the biggest show of the year? Damn, wrestling has gotten pretty ho-hum...". Austin, Hogan, Rock are obvious ones. I don't think there's any "probably" about Andre either. The standard isn't THAT high though. Most of the guys Noid listed can at least be argued. Lesnar and Cena are the only two guys at that level on the roster right now. I also think there are a handful of guys on the roster who actually have potential but the failure is all on the booking.

This.

Goldberg is an interesting case. He had such a short run, but I'd put him ahead of a lot of good names like Bret, Shawn, Warrior in terms of star power. He was the most popular star during the most popular era for about a year until Austin and Rock really took over.

Your top tier imo is Rock, Hogan, Austin, Macho Man in terms of true "stars" since the territory days.

I agree with this. I heard of Goldberg before I knew the rules of a wrestling match. He was a cultural phenomenon.

I never said that you were enjoying the product. I was just saying that I am. I can only speak for myself in that regard. I only mentioned numbers because someone else did.

In case you missed it.

I remember being extremely annoyed by The Rock around that time.

After watching the video, I see what the guy is saying. WWE making stars is entirely doable but they've had bad luck with the guys they've turned stars into. They end up leaving for whatever reason (Austin, Rock, Brock, Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Punk) or they end up having to retire a'la Daniel Bryan.

The only bad luck guys they had on that list you mentioned was Brock.

Hogan had grown stale by the time he left. Savage didn't resign because he was relegated to commentary. Warrior was a shit bag who ruined his own chances and Vince had already moved on from him.

By the time Austin was done the company had already started moving away from him and his shtick ran its course. Same for the Rock. Other than Hollywood Rock, his shtick ran its course and it was time to move on.

Ass big of a fan as I am if both guys during their time in the company, neither Punk or Bryan were stars the way the other guys you mentioned were.

WWE doesn't make the stars. The fans make the stars. Roman Reigns hasn't worked because of that.

I'd point you back to what BigCrippyZ said in his post though.

More and more people are seeing the strings too. When Reigns won the 2015 Royal Rumble, everybody saw the "Cena plan" for him.