Should Orton win at Mania to lose to Miz?
 

Pretty much being a transitional champ? I say this because Miz is on fire now.

Or perhaps Miz wins the title from Bray in a triple threat after Mania by-passing Orton all together.

I voted no. Only because as good as Miz has been touted here, I think Aj is still the top heel and him knocking Orton off for his second reign seems like a better idea.

Although I guess having Miz carry it through Summer Slam isn't a bad idea.

AJ vs Orton could be good, doesn't really need to be for the title.

I am enjoying Miz on the mic more than AJ at this point in time but they are very close.

No. To be totally honest outside of that one really great Talking Smack promo I haven't been feeling the Miz like everyone else on here. He's stepped it up, sure, but I just can't find myself being interested in him as the top guy for any length of time. Maybe if there was some payoff to be had with the Daniel Bryan stuff, but I don't see any way for that to happen since Bryan can't wrestle and I can't think of anyone that WWE could really try and have Bryan pass the torch to in this scenario.

No. The Miz needs to face Daniel Bryan at Mania, otherwise all the BS Bryan has put him through would not be worth it. If WWE it dead-set against Bryan wrestling, then they need to have Shane accept the match on his behalf. Miz beats Shane at Mania, then becomes the challenger to wrestle a face Orton/Harper/Bray at the next PPV following the obligatory rematch.....

Only problem is that leaves A.J. Styles without an opponent for Mania, which is very unfortunate....

Miz should become the champ but not for awhile. Unlike most people, he does not need the belt but his amazing work deserves another run.

No in regards to Orton being a transitional champ since Cena is supposedly already filling that role. No need to have back-to-back champs being just the transitional type for no real reason.

Also they can do a lot more things with Orton as champ than with the Miz. Miz's main appeal right now is the Bryan stuff which is always going to be limited because of Bryan's health status.

Miz can always win the MitB case later this year if they want to give him a title reign as part of his character's ultimate opportunist gimmick.

No. Miz is a mid-card heel. He fills that role perfectly. If you place him higher up on the card, it's like giving a main event push to the Honky Tonk Man. It wouldn't work, it would expose Miz and it would recreate the problems that stemmed from his first run. Just let him occupy that needed position of "heel mid-card act you can actually justify putting on WrestleMania" spot. It's not a bad spot for a dude who has the limitations Miz does. Pushing him above his station will destroy the good will he has built up. Don't do that to him.

Why do you think it would destroy him?

Because his gimmick can't handle the position. His ring work isn't as good as people say it is and his promos are great for an antagonist with a sour grapes rationale for why he isn't in the main events but can still win mid-card championships. Miz is great as the guy you want to see get beat up...and you do! Yay! As a dominating heel champion? Ugh. A chickenshit championship run would just be like a less credible JBL run again. How did that do for ratings? How did The Miz's last run do for ratings? He's a lot...well, he's got a lot of the gimmicky things down, but he's not that much better. He still looks the same, he's still as goofy in the ring, and he's still occasionally good on the mic. But we've been there and we've done that.

Not everybody is an ideal World Heavyweight Champion. That is fine. Some guys are immensely valuable in the mid-card. Miz is perfect for working with these indy guys they bring in without a personality developed. If you want to get Hideo Itami over, bring him in and have him kick Miz in the head. Instant pops for Itami. If you want to get Roderick Strong over? Have him come in and have Miz tear him down for not being in his Superstar league and then have Strong give him backbreaker after backbreaker after backbreaker. That is Miz's wheelhouse. The goal should not be to try and make him the star.

Also, part of Miz's charm is that pretends he is a big celebrity because of his relative WWE success and movie career. If he actually won an Academy Award and was actually presented as the most legit guy on the roster, then where is the heat coming from? He's no longer some delusional douchebag -- he is right. Putting the WWE Title on Miz would be like peeling back the curtain in WCW and revealing that there really was a conspiracy to screw Chris Jericho. Don't ruin a good thing.

Imagine if Honky Tonk Man won the WWF Title instead of the IC Title. That is what people are asking for. He gets to be in a PPV main event as one of six men on Sunday. That is probably the ceiling for The Miz right now. Maybe when he is about to retire he can put everything he has on the line for one more title shot and lose that in his Cleveland after accepting that it is truly his hometown or something. Then people can wipe away a tear and say goodbye to Miz and a career well done. You don't need to be trying to present this guy like Edge or something, because he's not.

There will be a time and a place for Miz to occasionally challenge. Maybe he'll get a faction around him at some point. But right now, he's a mid-card heel you love to see foiled. In the Chamber, he's probably the best option to be the first guy eliminated, because that way he can talk about how everybody was so threatened they had to team up to take him out. That is what he is great at.

He was pretty good at doing it when he main evented Mania.

Ratings disagree. I personally enjoyed the Miz's stuff at the time, but it didn't really hold up and he spiraled out afterwards. Filler and pre-shows consistently until this IC Title reign. It was years before The Miz got back to where he is now.

I dont care too much about his in ring work, oh the mic I see him as a hotter heel than styles, hottest on SDL and I feel like a small run would benefit him....

I do not like hot shotting the title though.

Eh, I think people overrated his promo skills. I think he's "got it' now, but I think the reason his Talking Smack stuff stands out is because no one actually really promos with a point -- it's all just emotionless rambling. Miz gets to go off on his own a bit, and he's clearly been doing his homework.

AJ Styles is great on the mic. He's got this charming heel style that has made him one of the most popular acts on the entire roster. He's not just smark over; he's over over now. I keep saying this, but I mean it when I say that I'd keep the WWE Title on Cena until WrestleMania and then have Styles take it off him in a Triple Threat with Orton and himself. It just feels like the most "epic" thing they can do now that they've given the Royal Rumble to Randy Orton. Miz? I'd probably put him in a mixed tag where he gets beat up by a man he and Maryse have been picking on the wife/girlfriend of, or he gets thrown into a Ladder Match where the average fan hopes he gets destroyed. He'd be great in either position.

Ratings have been plummeting forever now. Plus, the draw was Cena and Rock. Miz was a afterthought in terms of draw power much like CM Punj was.

It's kind of revisionist history to point out that The Rock was needed to save interest for that main event, and not that Miz was pushed and it didn't work.

Rock and Cena were the focus for the entire year? What are you talking about. There are so many variables that go with ratings. When was the last time ratings were constantly rising for a 3 month span every week? Your point is Miz failed in the main event because of the ratings. His character was so gold during that time though and ratings were declining before and after him.

If Miz gets pushed as champ Smackdown will be the obvious B show.

The current champ on Raw has not had a clean title victory yet am I wrong?

AJ is good on the Mic. Great when going against Cena but he can't get people to boo him, maybe he's not heelish enough.

I support the Miz mixed tag match for mania but I think after Mania he should move into the title scene.

No they weren't. Rock's first match with Cena came after Miz. In the build to the Mania match, Rock and Cena outshone Miz, this is true, but Miz didn't have the gravitas to make people buy into what he was doing on that scale. He got a few good reactions for mocking Cena and then they ran wild with him after Nexus was the hottest angle and they quashed it. Miz won the WWE Title before The Rock had even returned.

My point is that Miz failed as a main eventer because he isn't a very good main eventer. He doesn't have the ring skills to hold attention unless he is having a surprisingly good match, and his promos really aren't that great. No, I'm not saying he is a bad talker, but how many great promos has he actually had? Two? Three? He's not as good as the internet makes him out to be. He's a harder worker and fun in the mid-card. That is enough.

Probably not, but he's a mid-carder too. It's also possible that Goldberg wins the Universal Title at Fastlane. If Goldberg is the champ on RAW and Miz is the champ on SmackDown, which looks better? When you have two mid-card World Champs you can also fall back on the "which show is more important to Vince?" method, and that is RAW.

It's not that he's not heelish enough, it's that people like him. He's a breath of fresh air. He's a total package guy. He's running in Kurt Angle '06 mode. The dude could kill a kitten and get a pop for it. They're fucking morons for trying to get him booed when he is the most popular guy they have and a better draw on house shows with the kiddies than most of their actual babyfaces, because he is so fucking good.

Styles should be a babyface by WrestleMania and finding himself in the WWE Title match. He should probably find himself walking out of that show as the champ while they've still got him hot and healthy.

Goldbergs contract is up after Mania. I don't see a person who can barely work holding a belt for that long.

What is everybody's fascination with putting Goldberg in long matches? The dude is a Spear and a Jackhammer and it is more over than anyone else they have on their roster. I constantly hear people say "It's going to be interesting to see what happens when they put him in a long match" like that's an idea they should fucking do even if he could do it. The dude is getting older and your only over guys are part-timers, so you want to take this part-timer who is over because he doesn't do much, isn't expected to do much and can actually get away with not doing much...and you want him to do heaps?

Goldberg is over because he doesn't do much. Isn't his best match supposed to be with DDP at Halloween Havoc '98? That didn't even go for 11 minutes. Why you would push that barrier with him at an accelerated age baffles me.

People respect Rollins and still were able to boo him, KO too.

I don't think WWE is doing enough to have AJ be boo'd. Perhaps if he tapped out in the EC it'd get people to chant "You tapped out" instead of "AJ styles". He can be protected with the tap out too, no pussy shit. STF with a chain or something.

I'm not asking him to go 11 minutes, I'm not really asking him to be on my TV either.

Ah, so that was the Mania they brought Rock in as the special host to boost ratings? I would still say the focus on ratings is silly because the ratings have been decreasing for like 5 years now straight.

Either way, we have different definition on how good Miz is and what is a successful run. I clearly think he is better than you think due to different taste.

People don't really boo KO. I haven't heard any in a long time. There are slight cheers and laughs during his segments with Jericho. They might boo him against Sami Zayn or something. And AJ Styles is on a different level to Owens and Rollins anyway.

Why try and book the guy down just to get him booed? You're pissing on your own leg and to try and prove to someone it's raining. Just let him be cheered and use him to maximum potential. Why is the dude even a heel basically everyone else they want to push against him gets booed or a lessened babyface reaction because they know Styles is better?

Styles is not Stone Cold Steve Austin, but this is like trying to force Austin to be a heel for...reasons...and trying to make Kane the babyface against him. Maybe if Kane beats Austin in a second the fans will chant "Austin sucks" and we'll finally have our heel? Or you can just let the motherfucker be Stone Cold and make some money.

It's not worth breaking the fans' faith in Styles just to have him be booed. You're not going to get boos anyway; you're going to get a lack of interest.

Owens is such a mid card act that should never have sniffed the belt. Hell, the only reason he is semi useful is because he plays second fiddle to Y2J.

Yeah, that's the one. The ratings mattered more then than they do now. I don't even think they went down that much -- I think he just nullified the usual Mania boom period, but it was just a lifeless time for them. I liked the video they did before the Mania match and there was one week where Miz looked super-serious, but for the most part he was still goofy Miz, because that's what he does well.

Even if you love The Miz, can you really claim that he is a better act than half-a-dozen or so people on SmackDown? He doesn't have the presence of a Cena, Orton, Styles or even Wyatt. Ziggler's been booked to shit, but even he would have more "cred" as a champion. I just don't buy it. I do buy him as a smug piece of shit mid-carder though. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

It's not to shit on styles, it's to get people to boo him. Tapping out won't ruin him. It didn't ruin HHH when he faced brock and 3 months ago it did ruin Sasha OR Flair.

I'd be for flipping Styles as a babyface if he can play one. I have never seen him be great on the mic in the baby face role however.

With that being said he was awful as a heel in TNA and he was doing amazing this summer at it so I dunno.

I'm sure if we ask CyNick he could give us a positive spin on those ratings.

You putting wyatt.....AND ZIGGLER? Above Miz is laughable. You say Miz has had 3 good promo's how many has ziggler had?

I bought him in NXT, but beyond his stuff with Cena, he's been really underwhelming on the main roster. I don't think it's entirely his fault -- he's been booked like every other heel champion not named Triple H -- and he's technically very good. It's rare you ever see the dude not pull off something crisply, and he can talk. He's just lacking some x-factor. He's a great example, in my opinion, anyway, of a guy who can technically do everything right, but can still not have that Superstar charisma.

I'd love him in the mid-card or if he was in a tag team full-time, but I just don't buy him beating the likes of Goldberg, Brock Lesnar, Randy Orton, etc. His height honestly makes him look a bit diminutive out there. He can't be a bully, so he's got to be a chickenshit, and that's such a mid-card gimmick for a champion. He could be sympathetic, but they don't seem to want to cast him as an underdog babyface.

Something about the presentation has jumped the shark too. It worked in NXT where things were smaller, but his ring gear on the main roster stands out like a fat kid too afraid to take of his shirt to go swimming. It doesn't send the message "I don't give a fuck"; it sends the message "I give too many fucks."

He honestly reminds me of Bubba Ray Dudley, if Bubba could do crazier shit. Man, could Bubba Ray talk and know how to make himself look like an asshole, but there's no real "oomph" there to really buy him as a main event heel threat when there are so many badder dudes walking around.

He's getting cheered on the mic now. You just put him against people the fans boo. That's basically anybody that's not AJ Styles and is against AJ Styles. The guy is already a babyface, they're just fighting it.

Do kinda wish the belt went to Y2J the more I think of it. Would mean so much more with Owens stabbing his "best friend" in the back to take the title off of him.

CyNick would point out that ratings went down because CM Punk left the commentary booth and got involved in wrestling again. He was a detriment to the ratings because the fans could smell his disloyalty, but Vince still gave him a shot because a few fans wanted it and Vince gives like that.

As for Ziggler, I think he's much better in the ring than Miz, has got a better look and I remember his fired up promos more than Miz's usual shticky talking segments he does every week. Ziggler is also missing something though. Less than what Miz is though.

Yeah but I also remember the lack of "oomph" he had on the mic when he started his face run in the WWE.

They'll probably script him to be lame duck. That would be a shame. They should just push him as he is now and play it off as a hero's welcome. I mean, they removed him from The Club and they had him beat Cena basically clean. They were setting the table for him to earn the fans' respect.

I remember Ziggler screaming.... But that's about it.

That's like every Miz Talking Smack promo.

"I don't get hurt! I am here all the time! You are hurt! You aren't as good as me!"

It's good, don't get me wrong, but there were people on here comparing it to Hard Times. Really? Really?

Miz makes actual points though, Ziggler just says shit.

"I KNOW IF I HAVE JUST ONE CHANCE THAT WOULD BE ALL I NEED!"

Ziggler makes plenty of points about his passion and how far he is willing to go.

The Miz as WWE Champion is still far less exciting than so many things they could do.

Yeah and then he loses.
I don't see it, enlighten me.

Zigglers promos are pretty much "I put on the best match every night, etc"

It's like ok but you are losing those matches. If a football team loses in 'overtime' every week cool it was a great game to watch but you are still 0-16.

He should be cutting that promo to Vince, not the fans.

No, I don't think Orton or Miz should be champ right now. Orton is so boring he shouldn't win the gold at Mania; I don't mind Orton as Champ just not at the big 4 PPVs. Miz could be a transitional champ between ppvs like Orton, but Miz is an IC champ nothing more.

How can people knock Ziggler down for the booking following his promos and then elevate The Miz who has basically been a mid-carder of the same order? I don't get that logic.

John Cena
AJ Styles
Bray Wyatt
Goldberg
Brock Lesnar
The Undertaker
Roman Reigns
Samoa Joe
Baron Corbin
Braun Strowman
Kevin Owens
Chris Jericho
Randy Orton
Luke Harper
The Rock even when he's not there
Hulk Hogan when he eventually comes back
Fucking Kane
Seth Freakin' Rollins
Finn Balor
Probably Sheamus
Even Big Show
Definitely Triple H
Maybe Dean Ambrose
Charlotte
Nia Jax
Alexa Bliss

That is a list of guys more important than The Miz in the WWE right now. Some of them are truthfully probably equal but simply working higher on the card. Why would you put the WWE Title on a mid-carder and have him jump so far above that list of talent? Stop fucking with nature.

Someone gets it. :love:

Orton winning the WWE Title sometime in the middle of the year and that causing friction between him and Bray to main event a SmackDown exclusive PPV would be fine, but something about it feels wrong for a WrestleMania main event.

Noid, you put Boring Corbin on that list. Really? Dude is so god aweful.

I also assume the second half of that list is a joke right? But seriously, fuck Boring Corbin.

of course it is, big show....Kane?

Because his promos were stating how he was better and deserved more opportunities because he had great matches.............which he lost.

Yeah Ziggler has always seemed like a jobber. He was jobbing to Vickie when he was world champ, I don't get the Ziggler hype at all. Maybe his name and whiney voice hurt him too much from the beginning but god that guy is lame

I don't like Corbin, but that's not really my point. My point is that if they booked Corbin vs. Miz, they'd probably use Miz's smugness to put over Corbin as a heel you should actually believe in.

Miz loses all the time. I really don't get your point here. I'm not saying Ziggler has been booked anything other than shit (he's the heel heading into a Handicap Match against babyfaces for crying out loud), but this idea that Miz's promos somehow have a better payoff is just ridiculous.

And as for Stickman's quote, really look at what Stickman is saying.

He hasn't been the same since he turned babyface originally. He's one of those dudes, in the territory days, would have gone somewhere else by now so he can come back fresh. If there's a dude that could use a vacation, it's Dolph. It's hard to get enthused about the guy, and his heel run is already stale.

Dolph really should've left when his contract was last up. He could've used working the indys as a refresher for him while still staying outta the mainstream public.

Really dislike when people say someone should go to the indy scene. Why would anyone want to make less money if they are happy where they are at?

There's a logic to going so that you can come back for more money though. It's not a sure thing, but if you've got money saved there's a creative aspect to entertain too. Personal satisfaction versus financial security is a very real internal debate.

Dolph would get top dollar working the independents, work less dates, and broaden his portfolio. I'm sure Cody isn't hurting for cash bouncing between TNA, NJPW, ROH and the other indy feds he's frequented.

Maybe he won't get the same guarantees he gets with the E but I don't think he'd be underpaid. And like Noid said , there's an opportunity for him to do his own thing.

Cody left because he was unhappy though. He wanted to work the Indy scene. He didn't do it to refresh his character.

I don't know shit about how much wrestlers make, just seems like WWE will be the ones to pay top dollar regularly.

Going to see Rhodes. Paid 20 bucks for front row seats.

Would you mind asking him what he made in the WWE and the Indy scene please?

Ziggler could be just as unhappy. Maybe he just says fuck it and takes the money. I'm sure there's more than a few guys that just take the money

No, I'm friends with his agent. I'm not asking him that.

First off I'd like start by saying fuck you to everyone who doesn't see that KO is incredible.

Secondly....No. Orton needs to lose at WM. Bray absolutely NEEDS that win or they may as well retool him. I love Bray but he can only get by so long with the way he's been booked the last couple years. This is the time to pull the trigger on him and see if he can bring back the hype from his early main roster debut and actually draw as champion. A transitional run would be awful for him unless he won it right back and then held it.

Also that would be a probable 3 1 month transitional champs in a row. Cena, Bray, then Orton. No way they flip 3 different people over that fast with rematch clauses always being brought up. They are probably going to play off Cena's rematch as it stands no way they do that multiple times in a row.

This is the year of Bray damnit and he better hold the title til summer slam. And if he loses it around that time I hope they put it on Luke Harper.

I'm not really that keen on them putting the WWE Title on Bray at all. Something about the timing just seems wrong. Let Cena run with it into Mania -- he is their top star and it is fitting he heads into Orlando as their real World Champion.

I do get why you might feel that Bray NEEDS to win, and this is why I feel that The Undertaker's WrestleMania streak has had some majorly negative effects on the business. We now look at a guy's win-loss record at WrestleMania and go against the grain of a story in order to change stats in a rigged sport. Edge went over Alberto Del Rio at WrestleMania 27 and Del Rio was done because they looked at Edge's Mania losing streak in recent years and thought "Hey, maybe we should give the guy a win?". They put Big Show over Cody the following year because he also had that terrible Mania record. That was sort of Big Show's job though -- be the obstacle that is overcome on the grand stage.

Jeff Hardy never won at a WrestleMania. Vince McMahon has never won at a WrestleMania. Big E has never won at a WrestleMania. Shawn Michaels' WrestleMania record is pretty atrocious. John Cena's SummerSlam record is 4-9. You don't need to go over at certain events to be a star. If the story calls for Bray to lose at WrestleMania, then he should lose. I'm personally holding out hope, beyond reason, that Bray puts over Harper at WrestleMania this year.

I don't know if Bray is championship material to be honest. I love the gimmick, I do agree he needs to win more than he loses, but I cant see him being a wrestlemania champion. He is a transitional short term champ if he ever gets it.

I am definitely good with an Orton win. Would love to see him hang on to the belt at least until SummerSlam.

I also seem to be more of a fan of The Miz than most. I think he's gold on the mic, and has a look/charisma that harkens back to the 1980-Flair days. I understand he works safely in the ring, but that in no way makes him a less than stellar worker, IMO.

I would love to see him have a run. I see a feud between him and Orton working really well.

I see your point. The good thing about Bray, if WWE actually books him correctly, is that he doesn't necessarily need title runs to be $$$. In my mind, he is this generation's Undertaker... just run some good, creative storylines with him, give him some amazing entrances and match types, sprinkle in a belt every once in a while, and he is, if I may use the term, money in the bank.

I wasn't trying to make the point that Bray needs the win at wm or any specific event. I mean he just needs it in general. Orton damn sure doesn't need it, his role is permanently secure. Especially if you're gonna turn around and have him lose it to miz yet another month or 2 later.

I do agree that Bray should put over Harper but I think WM is too quick for that. We're going to have rowan back very soon and they will obviously build his involvement in that angle as well. That's why I think bray putting over Luke for the title at SS. The Wyatt gimmick has been awesome and the breakup of the family deserves proper build and attention.

Really though, the break up of the family is why wyatt needs the win. He may never be the biggest star, but they do need him to fill a role near the top of the card for the forsee able future. He's Been made to look like he relies in the family for everything so he needs this big moment so people will believe he is credible on his own after the split.

Sorry for my grammar lately. My phone screen is spidered atm and I'm not dealing with my awful autocorrect transgressions any longer.