American Daniel Bryan Danielson Dragon
 

There's talks around the internet that he was a different beast in the ring last night. Personally, he definitely looked reinvigorated and... maybe motivated (can't think of a better word right now). He was moving at a different pace, pulling out more submissions/moves/holds than I've seen him do in a very long time.




Whatcha think? He seem to take it up a notch?

Yeah he was unchained. Got to break the dumb rules of WWE. Also he was ripped!

all i know is that seeing cattle mutilation was really the icing on the cake for me.

He looked great. Physically the best shape he’s been in in a long while. In ring he can still obviously turn up the dial and wrestle at a break neck pace. Plus he’s a crazy man taking those bumps he did.

I don't think I've seen him so aggressive and fast in a very, very long time. Was a helluva good showing.

just hearing The American Dragon Bryon Danielson makes him seem more legit

Haven’t seen the match, don’t know if I care to.

It really was a good match. Get rid of whatever letters drive you nuts and just enjoy two great talents burning it up.

Loved everything about his match against Omega.

Avoided the biggest problem Andrade had with his AEW debut match by not being a bit rusty or not completely shaking off the WWE "stink"/style to his ring work.

If NJPW had suddenly gave him a call to replace Naito in their G1 tournament, he wouldn't look out of place or out of step based on how great he looked in his AEW debut match.

Clown

I looooooove his match against Lesnar at Survivor Series. To me it was the best match he has had since ROH. And it’s one WWE’s best matches ever. Last night was better.

Danielson has always been over with me. ive been singing his praises since 04. guys a goldmine. what makes him better than others is he works for the audience he has not the audience he wishes he had.

people clamour about him "being faster" or "unchained" simply dont get it. he was great in the wwf because he was always able to find a way to reach the largest portion of the audience he had and thats exactly wha he did with his match with omega.

its the same brush making the same strokes in the same way. read the room. he's beyond excellent at it. remarkable even. he doesnt play to the locker room.

Simply put he wrestled like ROH Danielson.

I feel like with his injury history he shouldn’t be able to do a lot.

and this is always a big pop

Dunno. Seemed to me like he was just rassling his normal style. I loved the match though. Probably the best showing from Omega I have ever seen, and as I said in the other thread it is a shame that Omega chooses to waste his talent most of the time.... but being in the ring with a serious rassler who knows what he is doing like Daniel Bryan made him "step his game up".

Can we also talk about how Danielson’s jump to AEW has made CM Punk… kind of irrelevant?

i would like a program where danielson calls out punk for stealing best in the wrold from him. winner gets the handle

My only problem with that is who believes Punk is currently the best in the world

people believed it once. wasnt true then either.

aew production team showed this match in the proper light. bryan's eyes and intensity was palpable, because we got to see it, and ross calling it out proper


top of his game, which is no slight to punk, who did well despite any rust


it's funny that wwe is the company that emphasizes the facial emotion and they're always cutting away to something else before you can let it sink in

Bryan > Punk. Always has been, always will be.

I disagree. Punk has a great relationship with the AEW fans and is super over. Sure a program with Team Taz isn't amazing but he wanted to work Hobbs. Give that match a chance it was great live.

Bryan and Lesnar was a marvel.

Bryan/Lesnar is free on YouTube! Go watch it because it’s fucking perfect.

That match was so sweet...

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Forgot about Lesnar having Bryan's boot print on his face for the rest of the match after Bryan did that face stomping thing

https://i.imgur.com/4d3LCOU.jpg

I’ve watched Bryan and Lesnar so many times. Proof that wrestling can be good.

It absolutely is. It’s also why fans get frustrated with Lesnar; we all know he can do that.

Eh, Brock’s usually pretty great, in my opinion. He makes stuff count when it’s important to. I think people get bogged down on internet talking points. “He doesn’t work hard” or enough. He doesn’t like wrestling. He’s an asshole. That sort of stuff. When it comes to his actual work — he’s basically peerless. Just seeing him sell for Bryan, or work in the 2020 Rumble, or him walk out with the Money in the Bank briefcase...he’s perfect.

For all the talk of WWE hot-shotting and them burning through everything they have, it’s funny to think that Brock hasn’t had a free televised match since his return almost a decade ago. Yes, there was that “match” with Kofi Kingston, which was basically an angle to switch the belt. But he hasn’t gone out in gear, presented as an actual match participant and worked his magic on television since 2004. And I don’t think the guy has worked a tag since he’s been back? Imagine Brock taking a hot tag or being in a Survivor Series Eliminator.

If Vince gets REALLY desperate, you’ll probably see Brock Lesnar working on TV and being the best thing in wrestling. They’ve got so much unturned soil with him even a decade into this run. They’re careful with him.

Imagine if Brock quietly signed a semi-regular deal with the WWE to come back and work a lot of TV as well as PPVs to build up for his eventual loss to Gable Stevenson at Mania 40, and he was just masterfully working to keep us on the down-low to not expect him dishing out F5s every three weeks or so.

I don’t think that’s the case, for the record. But just imagine this guy working TV again properly. Fucking wow.

I’m going to watch that Bryan/Lesnar match and I bet it’s pure dog shit compared to Hands Of Stone Ron Garvin vs any jobber in 1986.

Fuck all y’all.

i remember when lesnar beat joe and everyone said it made joe look weak becauae it only took one f5. suddenly a guys finish wasnt enough you needed at least 5 finishes to finish a match.

The Piledriver has a decent argument for being the best finish to be ruined by the devolution of sensible match-ending move combinations into a free-for-all of what looks craziest.
Some of the blame has to go on the luchadores for that. A tombstone off the top rope is a bit much lads. Calm down, especially if you’re not winning with it.

This is such an annoying modern trope. I think a big part of where wrestling lost me is when I saw a match and someone hit their “finisher.” The other wrestler kicked out, because of course they did but it then cut to these fans putting their hands on their face and acting like it was the most surreal thing ever. How could you possibly be surprised at that point? I realized I didn’t want to be a wrestling fan anymore in that moment. Just one of those things that tries to embarrass you.

Beyond the execution of these moves, is it even hard to kick out of an alleged finish by three? That’s not the skilful part of a match. There’s no “art” to that. The skill is in actually building a story and context to the moves.

There are any number of people who have "it" in them, but for whatever reason, don't get to or, more often in the case of WWE booking, don't have to. One of the great "modern" examples of this is CM Punk vs Cena. Most other Cena matches, he was essentially on autopilot. Countout recovery, 5 Moves of Doom, 3 count, done. He actually got to do shit in his match with Punk. He sold more than he usually did, his offense was a little more varied. It was just... different. It was refreshing. But it was also not something he needed to do all the time because he was able to coast for YEARS on just being over and "the indifferent babyface who doesn't give a shit if you cheer or boo".

Brock is similar in that he "gets it", but unless he's into what he's doing, he seems to not give a shit. He doesn't *have* to do anything, and he usually won't. His second match with Goldberg was WORLDS better than the first one ages ago, and Brock LOST in short order via spectacular in-ring storytelling on Brock's part. He was super cocky. He underestimated this past-his-prime old man. He got stuck before he was ready, he was hurt and possibly shouldn't have competed, and then he was capitalized on. That whole thing hinged on Brock selling everyting: his hubris, his shock, his injury, all of that. Imagine if Brock didn't feel like selling? If he didn't care or display the abilities that he has at that moment, that whole thing would have gone to shit and would have been about as fondly remembered as that first match but without a Stone Cold audible to save the day.

Brock can and has gotten by on his look and aura, but he's great when he turns it up. Truthfully, I'd even put Randy Orton in there, because there's a lot of his career where he's been on autopilot like Cena or exudes levels of "fuck this, I'm not digging it" like Lesnar.

But in the end, it's almost unfair to criticize Brock for this, because like the other two I mentioned, he doesn't have to do anything at a high level all the time for WWE. He's over just being Brock, so what exactly is his motivation for going out and doing more outside of the satisfaction of doing it? Yes, it can be frustrating to watch as a fan sometimes, but people will tune in to watch Brock be Brock either way until the day WWE does something that is looking less and less impossible by the week and somehow, some way, fuck up Brock.

I was/am in that camp, but it wasn't merely because "hurr durr one finisher"... it also was another example of WWE saying something without saying it.

Yes, there was (and to an extent still is, just not nearly as much) an epidemic of false finishes of 800 finishers being thown and everyone kicking out all the time. However, they chose *that* match to start scaling back? There were other problems that compounded this as well.

At that particular time, there was nobody really ready or built up to be even percieved as ready to be a threat to Brock. Then that whole angle with Joe happened. He's verbally sparring with Heyman, he isn't backing down from Brock. Hell, he's actively calling out and antagonizing Brock. He's getting the audience hyped and invested. This could be the gladiator who will stop the at that time Conqueror ... and then he loses. Not even in an epic fashion, or with a fuck finish, or having to be brutally put down because he's that big of a threat at an anticipated PPV match. No, he just gets a single F5 and pinned clean in the middle like he was some random jobber in a midcard RAW match.

It was kind of a middle finger moment, made even moreso because of the subsequent injury. A better finish could have been played up like Brock beat him, and put him on the shelf, and Joe's going to come back for vengeance... but instead, he was just disappeared. They told everyone that he was just another in a line of people Brock would just "one and done". He wasn't being anointed or pushed. That's it, Joe, thank's for playing, and here's a wonderful parting gift: the home version of our game called "Perception is reality, pal!"

they had to do it at some point. there was no reason why that match shouldnt be the time

him kicking out of a weak finish doesnt build joe it only hurts the move. joe being in a top billed match against the top guy in the business is a rub even if you casually dismiss it as anything other.

and the top guy in the industry needs a strong finish. its far more important than building joe. its not even close.

Problem is Brock doesn’t finish most guys with just one F5 and when Roman kicks out of 4 or 5 of them it kills the finish itself.

But I agree finishes should be super protected. It should mean something to kick out. I always think of Kane kicking out of two tombstones which was unheard of. And when Michaels kicked out of one at Mania 25. That shit was nuts because it was protected to the point that it was game over when Taker hit it. Then everybody kicked out of it and the mystique wore off because you knew it was coming.

say what you will about reigns but theres a clear difference in mania match (Reigns vs Lesnar) using a finish as a falsie and random ppv main event doing it. even there im not in love with the idea especially if youre doing it annually but booking a match with the intent to put the finish over instead of the midcarder cant be portrayed as an objective misstep. its obviously not that clear and it very likely isnt the wrong call at all.

and the notion that joe could (or should) ever rise above a good hand isnt being honest. he's never going to be the guy. he was never in a position to be the guy. he never had what it takes to be the guy. what he does have is the ability to be plugged into spots where he can get over enough to have good programs at whatever level you need to use him at.


but those talents are best used getting other things over, not themselves. there's more utility in it.

and to that end there's far more utility in the f5 than there is in joe

so if you book joe v brock the best scenario is you get brock more over than when he came in and the notion that 1 F5 can win a match at any time cant be fairly portrayed as a bad choice. it may even be paramount because when you deliver a marquee match that will have people (unfortunately) inevitably kicking out of the F5 you need that to mean something as opposed nothing and if brock NEVER goes over with the 1st F5 then it isnt a falsie at all.

Destor is right.

I love me some Joe, and I think he could have been more important earlier. Hell, I’d still like Brock vs. Joe in the right context now. But the call itself was good.

Kayfabe being dead and fans thinking they are smarter than they are got in the way of what they intended with Brock/Reigns. Which is the reality and the result of their own shit, really. But on paper, there is NOTHING wrong with Brock vs. Reigns. Which is why they are doing it again with a fresh context.

we can argue if reigns v anyone is the right call or not but i dont think it is reasonable to contest that if your plan is brock v anyone not joe in the immediate future then, since youre putting lesnar over, your goal should be to leave him stronger than when he entered.

What ground Punk loses to Bryan in the ring he makes up for and then some in character work. Bryan still has a tendency to be awkward and terribly unnatural on the mic. I’ve always preferred Punk as an overall performer.

Punk is more well rounded. I think Danielson found his style promo wise but he’s never going to be at the level of Punk. You don’t have to be an in ring general if you can merely talk them into your building.

Punk seems more well-rounded on paper. But it’s the intangibles that split them up. Punk has this ceiling on him. It’s like he’s all talk. UFC shit aside, it’s like you don’t really miss him when he’s gone. Danielson has this glue to him. He’s way more magnetic to me. When he doesn’t do something, I miss it.

It’s why I “controversially” said I buy Bryan as a better promo than Miz. I BELIEVE Bryan. I believe in him. Punk is cool when he’s there, but then you realize he doesn’t really make a big difference.

Both great talents. They don’t need to be weighed against each other. Both no-brainer signings. But Danielson is WAY more likely to get me to pay to see what he will actually do versus Punk, who strings a good story.

They’re Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels to me. They’re both ace at what they do. But Bret had way more meat on the bone, whereas Shawn was this confectionary treat.

Just watched this now and it was sweet. I had no idea they ever wrestled. And it was in the WWE and it was Goood!

On the surface, it was weird Bryan turned “heel” before this match. But it all tied into the in-ring story. If you don’t know, Bryan low-blowed Styles a week before to win the WWE Title to earn the match. He acted like a smug bitch that had a “secret” the whole time. He gets his ass kicked and kicks Brock the same way to make one of the best babyface comebacks of the era. Just ace. The way he shows his face. But he doesn’t betray the questionable heel tactics he showed. He’s “turning” heel through this match. Because Brock beat the “weakness” out of him. So good.

If Bryan didn’t “turn” the week before, his antics wouldn’t have worked the same way. Would have been “out of character.” Bryan turning actually made this seem like it was on its own planet. In a good way.

Watching it back, not a perfect match. Fucking great though. Brock Lesnar’s selling? Mwah!

I remember the way he took the routine kicks. On different parts of his body like he just wanted to get the shit out of town. But the way he gets his leg wrapped around the pole? Jesus Christ. Then he wins the match and immediately sells the knee. I THINK this might be the match that people backstage legitimately thought Brock was hurt because he collapsed backstage. Sold the knee the whole time. Marks.