Benoit Taps
 

The Champ made Benoit tap out which was sortof a very late revenge as he had tapped out to Benoit way back in 2003. Cena doesn't deserve such a push over. Actually Benoit should be holding Cena's title and vice versa.
Discuss people.:naughty:

They must be really trying to get cena over by having benoit tap to him.

Actually, yes. I was disgusted! The master of submissions (at least in the WWE at the moment) tapped to a weak looking STF. How could they do this to Benoit?

That was the moment I turned off. What appeared to be a long winded and nothing happening programme made me almost sick by the fact that the STFU made Benoit tap. I don't really recall him tapping out and losing a macth since he's been in the WWE. Not even when he was feuding with the Rock and his dodgy sharpshooter.

I'm not sure I can be bothered to tune in next week after that trash tonight.

I'm not a huge Benoit fan even but I threw a huge fit at the end of Raw last night.

Having Benoit job by pinfall is one thing... Making him tap is a secret vendetta. Benoit must have slapped Steph's ass or something.

Benoit can slap any ass he wants. He's Chris Fucking Benoit.

I thought you were a Cena mark?

Way to tarnish your gimmick dipshit.

He's tapped plenty of times.

Dozens of times.

That's pretty stupid.

Benoit tapped to the Rock once, I think the ref was out though. Tapped to Angle a bunch of times during their feud, and to Jericho.

Though we can all agree:

Cattle Mutilation >>>>> Ankle Lock, Liontamer, even the Rock's sharpshooter >>>>>>>>>>>>> ass punch >>>>> STFU

Huh?

Including to midcarders. Not to mention to a good amount of WWE champions. So where's the problem in it, technically speaking?
Of course I agree that I don't like it, but I realize what it is and see it as what it's meant to do. Make your WWE champion heading into Wrestlemania get a rub off your US champion. It's not like it kills Benoit.
Why is it okay to you when The Rock and Kurt Angle make him tap as champion, or better yet when midcarders make him tap in midcard matches?
But when Cena does it, the WWE fucked up and its "not logical". It's for the same reason now as it was then, to put over the champion big because Benoit's over too.
Just because you don't like Cena doesn't really mean it's a different situation. I dislike it too but I'm not gonna dellude myself as to what it really is, and make the argument that it was okay the other times, or the millions of times a champion has made a strong wrestler tap or lay down, but now it's bad.

Just comenting on that ignorant thought back there is all.

yea seriously Destor. "He can lay down but he CAN'T TAP". :roll: This is wrestling. Benoit is a god to me, but come on. You guys sound like marks trying to be smart. Saying that Benoit can't tap to the STFU because its < other submissions. <THE p angle and lionatamer lock?<>C'mon. Thats absurd. It's wrestling! It's a submission maneuver, regardless of what it looks like, and it's being built to be strong. Thats the way it is. "But it doesn't hurt like those do" C'mon, thats some markish shit. Maybe it doesn't look it, but none of it does. It's a work. If his submission looks shitty or weak then so be it, it's still being built to be dominant to go along with his finisher and superman push as champion.

So in kayfabe it's all the same, in kayfabe it's painful as hell and dominant and up there if not superior to those other moves. Sorry, thats the way it is. I don't like it and you don't have to like it either but please don't say markish shit like that.

OMG! THEY'RE JOBBING OUT BENOIT! HE MUST BE IN TEH DOG HOUSE!

HE'S BEING BURIED!!!!! If you're upset with him jobbing to the WWE champion in a road to wrestlemania match, just wait til wrestlemania. He's gonna job to MVP in the midcard. Rant about that if you got a problem with this.

That would actually be rant worthy right there...

Maybe...

Yes, now THAT sucks. I'm just pointing out that theres MUCH worse things that can happen than lose to the WWE champion superman in a main event leading up to Wrestlemania. And that will be evident in 20 days.

So you think it's perfectly fine that they made Benoit tap to the worst submission move in the business today when a simple pinfall would have sufficed?

For the record, I tend to think of submission finishes to be worth 2 pinfall finishes, and a submission against a guy like Benoit to be worth about 10. Does Cena need it? He's already on top. The sheep already think he's the best thing since sliced bread. A move like that just pisses the smart fans off. For the little bit that Cena went over, Benoit's image took a nosedive. The irony of it is that Benoit taps more than most others because of his tough image, so in the end he looks like a bigger pussy than most.

So no, I wasn't being serious when I said he probably slapped Steph's ass. But compare a hard-nosed Benoit to someone with a less tough image like Carlito. Benoit has tapped dozens of times while other guys have hardly ever tapped at all. In that respect, it seems as though the bookers have something against Benoit, making him tap when it's not even necessary.

And to help you in your communication skills, it's more productive to explain your reasoning when being critical of others rather than saying something along the lines of "That's pretty stupid." It makes you look a little ignorant yourself.

What a fucking retarded idea to put over a guy responsible for drawing the WrestleMania buyrate in a convincing manner. Seriously now. How ABSURD.

Seriously people, it was the smartest thing to do.

LOL @ Jeritron.

I wonder if he is Reymon14.

why not LOL at Destor? What I'm saying is true bro, I didn't say I liked it. I just said on the booking side of things thats the way it is.

Seriously dude, I hate Cena too but don't attack me for telling it as it is from a booking standpoint. Why would you refer to me negatively for what I said, when hbk2k and Destor agreed?

Benoit suck, I'm glad he tapped.

BUT GUYS!!! CHRIST BENOIT TURNED WATER INTO TOOTHLESS AGRESSION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you expect Benoit to go over or something? It was completely expected.

Look. Chris Benoit isn't selling WrestleMania, John Cena is. So you can either book the way TNA would, do a bunch of run-ins, end it in a lame DQ because "you have to protect Benoit", and not get anybody over and render it meaningless, or can make the guy responsible for selling the show look like a million dollars on Raw and actually get somebody over, when the truth is nobody will remember the match in three months anyway. It's common sense, it's the right thing to do, get over it. Benoit's bulletproof - he's going to rebound just fine if they need him to.

Thank you hbk2k

Funny thing about that match that I found. Benoit looked great then just at the end Cena hit signature moves and it was over. Other than that Cena looked like shit in the match. It was obvious who carried who.

HE SHOULD GO TO TNA!:mad:

So what, Angle and Jericho are the only ones allowed to make Benoit tap out?

I was disgusted too, and I've never really liked Benoit. As for this being the only way to go other than the "TNA way" of including a bunch of run-ins, bullshit. Cena has the FU.

The only thing I didn't like, was Super-Cena lasting an insanely long time in the Sharpshooter, only to have Benoit tap out quickly to a shitty STFU. As soon as I saw that I knew the ending was inevitable. At least he didn't last that long in the Crossface without tapping.

We all knew this was coming though as soon as the match was advertised.

If Benoit was pinned cleany, I wouldn't have given the match another thought...but for Benoit to tap was kinda odd to witness.

People's problem isn't that Benoit lost, it's that he lost via submission, and it is perfectly understandable. The difference between Chris Jericho and John Cena is that Jericho is a believeable submission wrestler. Cena can wrestle, but he hasn't since becoming SuperCena, and giving him the submission win over Chris Benoit is like giving the Best Actor Award to Pauly Shore over Robert DeNiro.

Cena really should have won the match with the F-U. Out muscling Benoit makes some sense. Making him taps just reeks of "Everyone in their chosen fields must be made to look inferior to Cena, who can do it all!" It's just fucking retarded and it does more harm than good.

I thought Cena making Triple H tap at WrestleMania last year was a little extreme. An F-U victory would have been fine. The WWE wants to put Cena over. They're trying to convince us he's a submission wrestler, though, and it's just painful to see.

Yeah, they are trying to make the STFU appear to be devestating, but it's all fun and games until Michaels is in it 2 weeks from now, and he doesn't tap. He fights and claws his way to the ropes, all the while Benoit tapped in 12 seconds, if that.

I expected Cena to get the win, but not by submission. That's just lame. It's obvious to everyone that Cena can't wrestle his way out of a paper bag, so why build him as something that he is not?

I don't mind the STFU in Cena's offense, but it should be secondary to the F-U.

:y:

Can we all just be honest and admit that we're only pissed because most of us like Chris Benoit and don't like John Cena?

That's what I was saying, but apparently I'm on the level of Reymon14 for defending booking despite personal markdom and preference of wrestlers.

Wow, 20 seconds!

Cena beats Benoit: Fine.
Cena beating a submission machine with a weak-ass submission move to make Cena look like something that a large chunk of fans know he is not: Anything but fine.

I don't even mind Cena that much though. What I'm angry about is building up any star in a way that is just insulting to another. There was absolutely no reason to have Benoit tap in a normal Raw match when a regular pinfall victory would have been just fine. Hell, if it had happened in a PPV main event after a long and grueling match that left both guys beat to hell, then it would have been fine. Disappointing, certainly, but not an outrage.

That's actually a pretty long time for a submission finisher to be on a wrestler without them eventually putting it over by tapping.

It's also kind of frustrating that Jim Ross himself says stuff like "John Cena may not be the best mat-technician in the world, but he knows how to fight." They can't even figure out whether they want him as counterpoint to professional wrestling, or it's Second Coming.

And Benoit being liked better than John Cena isn't the issue here. It's the method of the WWE took with completely taking casual fan interest away by Benoit losing the way he did. If he lost, fine, it's a loss. The way he lost makes it look like Benoit can't out wrestle Cena, which is fine with me, because in my fantasies the two could end up working a program later, and Benoit is getting more and more political it seems; I can understand why people would be upset, though.

It also gives marks a twisted view of things.

"Benoit is a supreme technical wrestler."
"Oh yeah? Then how come Cena made him tap out?"

Some permutation of that exchange will happen, if it hasn't already.

No, Cena wins with the FU, thats fine.
Cena winning with the STFU = bullshit.

I can't remember the Rock ever winning with his cheap ass version of the Sharpshooter.

who are you calling a mark? You're the one insisting that Chris Benoit's finisher is more powerful and Cena could never kick out of it because he's not a master of submission and a canadian crippler, he's just a chaingang soldier.

Obviously Chris Benoit's a great technician, but the submission manuevers and "level of skill" in kayfabe and such ISN'T REAL. So stop talking about it like Benoit is Roger Clemens and John Cena could never hit his fastball. At the end of the day, its just another submission lock and the booking and creative makes up what "hurts" and what's "more devestating". Since Cena is their golden boy and the champion, guess what, he had a submission maneuver thats "devestating" and makes the US champion tap, who also happens to have "submission skills", thus making Cena look stronger.

As much as it pains me to say it, can't argue with that.

and don't even say that I'm a Cena mark and defending him because you all know damn well that I don't and that I obviously didn't "like" the outcome, from a mark standpoint. And that I prefer Benoit by a mile. Just realize that it's not a big deal, it's a booking decision and the right one.
Not to mention more marks wanted what happened to take place, than there are ones bitching about it. So thats why this happens.

I'm not completely sure, but I'm almost certain Rock has made Benoit tap with the sharpshooter. Back in 2000, when they had a couple of PPV main events, Rock was using that move heavily. I think he even made Angle tap too, along with a string of other challengers.
The difference is it was The Rock and we liked him, so there was no outcry, because even though Rock is no technical master either, he was a mark favorite and entertaining as hell. So since we don't like Cena, we begin to fault him and the creative for things they've been doing along with wrestlers in his role.

So, with that logic, Sting should've never won with the Scorpion Deathlock simply because Bret did it better.

Honestly, the STFU is being booked as a legit finisher for Cena, even if it doesn't look good. As a finishing maneuver, it's got to actually finish matches. Cena's going into the main event of WWE's biggest show of the year. Benoit isn't. Therefore, it makes sense as a booker to make Cena look like the better man.

Am I happy with the decision? No. Why? Simple: because I like Chris Benoit, and I don't like John Cena. I don't need to dance around it with other excuses.

The Rock's cheap ass sharpshooter was booked strongly, even though it didn't look painful and well executed. Why? Because it doesn't matter if its painful or well executed, it matters that its a finisher move that they choose to employ. Not to mention we're the only breed of fans who look at Rock's sharpshooter and Bret's and see a huge difference in how "devestating" it looks.

But we didn't have a problem with them booking Rock to have a new, strong finisher that didn't look that way. This is because we didn't have a problem with The Rock. They pushed The Rock like superman, and they wanted to add a submission manuever that was dominant. They needed to get it over, so he suddenly started using it a lot. He had the People's Elbow and the Rock Bottom, so why did he need to do this? To get him and the move over more.
Cena has the 5 knuckle shuffle and the FU, why does he need the STFU? To get him and new, match end submission over more.

And that is the truth right there. Calm down marks.

I think the arguement could end at that. The thing that pisses me off is the crippler crossface looks painful and Benoit can make it seem almost 100% real. Cena on the other hand isnt doing the STF right. Or STFU whatever you want to call it. He isnt around the chin its just kinda making a circle around the guys face. How on gods green earth is that going to make anyone tap out, let alone the Rabid Wolverine.

dude wow

good wow or bad wow?

WOW HE TAPPED OUT NO!!!!

It's Montreal all over again ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Get the fuck over it people. It'll be a distant memory in 3 weeks anyway.

I thought I was the only one who was irked by this.

I don't consider myself to be the usual smart fan....I hate ROH and generally any indy fed out of the big 2. I'm generally not that much of a critical fan but Benoit's loss really pissed me off.

Here's why - okay here's Benoit, one of the best wrestlers out there still performing and busting his ass for the fans. This guy was such a badass in WCW and even in WWE. He goes from World Champion at WM 20 to being stuck in mid-card hell for nearly 2 years with the US Title, rarely if ever cutting a promo, and just being thrown on the card to put on a good match. When I saw him come on Raw, I knew he was going to lose. But I was expecting a nice, long fight. Instead I see a rather weak matchup, and Benoit just giving up to the STFU hold by Cena. It wasnt just the Monday Night matchup, but in general for a long time now it's been making me upset. Ever since his WM 20 peak, his career is going downhill. A damn shame too, like I said..this was the freaking Crippler in WCW and World Champ that people feared. Now he's just "US Champion Benoit...a guy of the past."

One thing most of you guys are forgetting is that the crossface looks just as week as the stfu. I wish beniot would quit using the crossface.

LOL "one of the big two."

I don't get it? What's so funny about that??? Care to explain please?

Big 2 national promotions with PPV days in the 90s...WCW and WWE. Today it's WWE and TNA. Granted TNA is small, but it is the 2nd largest promotion in the US on a national scale, has a primetime slot on cable TV, and has PPVs.

By that logic if MTV had given WSX PPV's we would have had "the big three."

And by your own posts "The two," "Granted TNA is small," you've contradicted your self. You cant be biug and be small. Yeah, TNA is TV, yeah they have PPV, but they have a long way to go before they anything more than an indy company with a TV deal. Making a profit being their first hurdle.

Here's something to consider kids, maybe, just maybe, they thought that putting Cena over Benoit by submission would actually make him look, you know, stronger for Wrestlemania. Yeh, an FU would have been fine, but look how much attention you're paying to the outcome of the match. On another forum there's like 20 pages of discussion on this. Point is, if you're not looking at it from a "OMG, X-FACE IS A SHOOT" retard point of view, then you know that John Cena is a pretty damn big deal and he looked as strong as you can look booking-wise. Everyone that makes any comment about wanting a different outcome, no matter what it is, is saying it because they don't want Cena looking as strong at the expense of Benoit.

Realise that Benoit is going to be fine, his credibility is perfectly fine, and John Cena looked like a million dollars going into a show they are wanting to do a million buys. That's logic folks.

So what you're saying is because it's a fixed sport we have no right to complain about a tool of a wrestler beating one of the greatest ever with his own style? I'm sorry, but in real life there is a HUGE skill difference between Benoit and Cena, and trying to pretend that there is not isn't only inconsistent (the WWE constantly has us believe Cena isn't a catch-as-catch can wrestler), but damn-near damaging.

No, logic would have been to make the US Title, Chris Benoit and their program at WrestleMania look somewhat meaningful.

Benoit's status is hurt by this. A mark now sees Chris Benoit as being completely inferior to John Cena. Now they don't even have the "John Cena is a fighter, Benoit is a wrestler" excuse. Cena beating Benoit via submission does nothing for buys, does nothing for Cena (but make us loathe his status even more, and protect him further, which is NOT necessarily a good thing) and it certainly does nothing for Benoit.

It wasn't designed to help Benoit, that's the point. Cena is the guy in the position to succeed right now, so it's absolutely necessary to have him look as strong as possible. Yeh, of course WWE could make more people mean more and get the US Title over as a big deal, but you're complaining about something that changed in wrestling years ago. The top three matches are selling this show, and nobody will remember this match after Mania anyway, and all Benoit needs is a heel turn or a strong feud with a top line guy and he's instantly credible because everybody takes him seriously. This didn't hurt Benoit much in the grand scheme. The pop he'll get at Mania won't be changed by this at all.

No one has convinced me that giving Cena the submission victory was so much better than if they would've just let him use the gay FU to get a pinfall victory. Cena did not need that match to end by submission. All that does is piss people that think like that off even more, and I know we're not the only ones. This has more potential to turn fans on Cena again than it does to help him, in my opinion.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense, and that it damages Benoit's credibility. If I'm going to enjoy wrestling I have to be able to watch it as a mark. If things are going to happen that take the nature of the work and slap me in the face with it, I'm not going to be able to do that. It's still real to me, dammit, at least while I'm watching the show. I'm not complaining as a Benoit mark or even a wrestling fan, I'm complaining as a fan of good storytelling, and jobbing Benoit to a weak-ass STF is equivalent to watching a vampire movie in which Dracula gets killed by blunt-force trauma to the head from a lead pipe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0chewbacca.jpg
That does not make sense!

kinda lazy so I'm just gonna run through the points.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't touch Benoits, credibility, what makes your marking out more important than the kids and other marks WWE is catering too with this?, and you are complaining because of who the wrestlers are

THIS IS RIDCULOUS! LETS RIOT!

I'm not saying that the group of fans that would have a problem with this (I'm not putting them on the "mark", "smark", or "smart" side, because there are people from supposedly all three among this group and on the other side, I guess.) are more important than the other "marks/kids", but if there's something that would've left a better taste in both sides' mouth, why would you not use it?

well I wasn't talking to you, but fine. The entire reason they were doing it was to make not only Cena look strong but that move. You don't make Cena and his submission look strong by pinning the US champ. They did what they did for a reason man.


I just think this entire debate should die. Some people are upset because they personally don't like the match outcome and Cena, I fall into that category. But to fault the logic, the booking and the pound for pound nature of what happened is unfair.
A handful of people seem to get it, another handful are letting their opinions and personal preferences influence their standpoint on the issue and it sounds pretty markish at times. That's fine I just think this should die.

You don't make it look weak by doing that either. There are plenty of other ways they could build up that move, and I'm starting to wonder why that move is even so necessary anyway. And while I will continue to say that I'm not a fan of Benoit, talking about "pinning the US Champ" in that light is absurd, when they try to put Benoit over as a "former World Champion". It's not like he was Orlando Jordan.

I mean, by the "they did what they did for a reason man" logic, there should be no debates about anything, ever.

Thats not true either. Theres the questioning of logic, or the debate over whether it was there or not, or what should have been done. And theres the debates over the past, the future and so many things.

I just think this particulary debate is pointless, or at least has gotten carried away. I think it has taken off and personal opinion has stood in the way of fact, and the whole thing is blown out or proportion.

Yeah, but everything that's ever been done has been done for a reason.

Not a good one. Or a pretty simple to understand one.

All opinion, there.

not really

You say everything that has ever been done has been done for a reason?
Somewhat true.

I say, not always a good reason, or a simple to understand one?

I'd say that's a fact.

are you trying to say the holocaust was done for a good, understandable reason?


HATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, really. Whether something is a "good" reason or a "bad" reason, or even an "understandable" reason is not factual. You can make cases using facts, but that doesn't make said cases fact. Some people may not agree with the reasoning in this case. Others may think that something you think was a bad decision happened for a perfectly good reason. Opinion.

If you want facts with no opinions, go to the newsboard (though granted, you'll also get ridiculous ads there :p).

In Mr. Hitler's opinion, it was a good reason. I'm sure you could find more sick bastards that think it was done for a good and simple reason too. Does that make them right? No, but not by fact.

Very probably, we've pretty much gotten to the point where everyone is just repeating their arguments.

I won't really argue that, as most points on both sides were made like three to five posts in.

Its called perpetuating them, which happens in every thread as long as theres people who disagree still.

But yea, this thread fuckin sucks. Let it rest til you all come up with the sequel on April 1st. Thats when MVP pins Benoit for the US championship, cleanly.

But damn it, I'm not gonna give a damn about that one. :(

Which you can immediately cop out of by "it was done for a reason, man."

I'm actually against Benoit tapping.

I'm all in favor of making Cena look strong, but Benoit shouldn't tap in like a 5 mintue match on Raw.

Benoit should tap after a 25 mintue match on a PPV.

So wait, when Benoit was World Champion he shouldn't have been going around cleanly making people like HBK, HHH, Kane, and Orton tap out?