The Kliq is overrated
 

Discuss

The only one that's done anything worth of merit has been Shawn Michaels. Nash is one of the worst drawing champions of all time, Hall's personal problems kept biting him in the ass, HHH got over through sheer force and will power after floundering in the mid-card for years, and Waltman barely qualifies as a Kliq member.

Diesel Power

The WWE allegedly ran off of it. Must've been some pretty crappy gas mileage formula.

Unleaded > Diesel

Then....Diesel and HBK were champs in a down era, so you can't blame them for their poor draw. They did no worse than Bret Hart, actually better. Scott Hall and Waltman were solid mid carders. HHH was nothing.....then the MSG Incident happened....and a few guys went south.

Now....

HBK is single handedly the greatest in ring performer ever, and he is one of the top guys the WWE ever had, even with a 4 year down time. he trained some of the best guys to ever hit the Indy Scene and has kept the Raw main Event afloat for the last couple years as the Top Face vice Cena.

Nash and Hall made the NWO....and we all know how that went. They won the Monday night Battles for over a year, but lost the war. He may have screwed things as a booker, btu there would be nothing to ruin without him as a single draw.

Hall had hard times, he will never be the top guy he could have been, but being one of the best 2nd tier guys is still amazing, its more than guys like Edge will ever see.

Waltman is till talked about today, he will go down as a 3rd tier guy, along with guys like Val Venis and Rikishi. Guys who had good runs into the Main event but never were much else. He was a huge part of DX and will not be forgotten. He is the type of guys that people who dont watch still ask what happened to.

and HHH like it or love it is the face of this business for the rest of his life. When he steps back he is going to run the company with his family.






So yeah, pretty impressive Group, more so than, say, the Heart Foundation

Then....Diesel and HBK were champs in a down era, so you can't blame them for their poor draw. They did no worse than Bret Hart, actually better. Scott Hall and Waltman were solid mid carders. HHH was nothing.....then the MSG Incident happened....and a few guys went south.

Now....

HBK is single handedly the greatest in ring performer ever, and he is one of the top guys the WWE ever had, even with a 4 year down time. he trained some of the best guys to ever hit the Indy Scene and has kept the Raw main Event afloat for the last couple years as the Top Face vice Cena.

Nash and Hall made the NWO....and we all know how that went. They won the Monday night Battles for over a year, but lost the war. He may have screwed things as a booker, btu there would be nothing to ruin without him as a single draw.

Hall had hard times, he will never be the top guy he could have been, but being one of the best 2nd tier guys is still amazing, its more than guys like Edge will ever see.

Waltman is till talked about today, he will go down as a 3rd tier guy, along with guys like Val Venis and Rikishi. Guys who had good runs into the Main event but never were much else. He was a huge part of DX and will not be forgotten. He is the type of guys that people who dont watch still ask what happened to.

and HHH like it or love it is the face of this business for the rest of his life. When he steps back he is going to run the company with his family.






So yeah, pretty impressive Group, more so than, say, the Hart Foundation

Skippord, I swear to fucking god you just sit around and figure out how to piss me off. Since you gave no points or ideas, I shall return with only a couple of thoughts.

SHAWN MICHAELS: No matter how you look at it, one of, if not the best in ring performer of all time.

TRIPLE H: The best heel in the history of professional wrestling. Not to mention a masterful technician.

KEVIN NASH: The heart and soul behind the nWo. Period. In 1999 was voted in the top 5 most recognizable wrestlers of all time.

SCOTT HALL: One of the most entertaining people to ever step in the squared circle.

SEAN WALTMAN: For being the runt of a group, he was a damn fine worker. Widely credited with introducing America to the small style of wrestling.

Those 5 men changed professional wrestling forever. If it weren't for them, no nWo and no DX. MICHAELS and HALL changed the entire way a match was paced in the 90's. NASH came in and gave big men three dimensions. WALTMAN forged a new path in style for the largest wrestling market in the world. HUNTER may be the best well rounded wrestler of all time. I said I would make this short, but I'll finish with this; there is no group (kayfabe or otherwise) in professional wrestling to make a bigger impact, to make more money, or to have a collection of "Match of the Year" than those guys. You look at the greatest moments over the past decade and a half, and you will see it involved at least one of them...or Austin. :shifty:

The One, I like you, but look how easy it is to spin things like that:

PAUL LONDON: Can work a technical style, and can fly. He's charismatic, got a cult fanbase, and has put on some of the more fun matches of the new millennium. With Brian Kendrick, he reinvigorated tag team wrestling.

BRIAN KENDRICK: Trained by Shawn Michaels, and bridges the gap between serious wrestling and comedy, which is a necessity in this era. With Paul London, he has carried tag team wrestling in the WWE.

VAL VENIS: Carries himself perfectly in the ring. He can bump, wrestle, fly, talk, apply psychology, and knows how to take a match by the reigns and give it realistic substance. If Venis was an asshole, he could be up there with Triple H as a "total package" wrestler.

Seriously, how you can call indie guys overrated, guys who haven't even gotten a chance in the bigger promotions of the industry, and yet sing the praises of these guys blindly is pretty hypocritical.

<font color=white>I wouldn't call the tag division 'reinvigorated'.

:-\ </font>

Meh, maybe, But HBK is God and no one can take that away from him, not even God himself...

Shawn Michaels is a great wrestler. One of the greatest. I wouldn't call him the greatest, though. I won't argue too much with you on this, though. HBK will be remembered for being a great overlooked performer of the past, and training some of wrestling's brightest stars (Lance Cade, Bryan Danielson, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Tomko? All of them are better than some men to hold a World Championship).

Triple H is not the best heel in professional wrestling history. Sure, he really pissed people off because he fluked his way to the top on adequate skills, guys breaking their backs for him, and banging the boss' spawn. He's not a bad technician, but he wouldn't even make the top ten in the WWE. He owes most of his in-ring success to his psychology, which was great at times, especially before he became boring as shit when he came back from his quad injury. While Shawn Michaels will be looked back at fondly, right up until the end, I think Triple H's glory days died several years ago.

Kevin Nash was recognisable. Once he went to WCW. In WWE he was a piece of shit, though. Sure, his buddy bumped like shit for him once or twice, making him look somewhat good, but he does not even deserve a spot in the list of the top ten greatest big men ever. The saving grace of Kevin Nash is his charisma, which he has shitloads of. If he settled into a JBL role, he could wash away the shit stains of his earlier career.

Scott Hall was a great mid-carder. It's a shame he never got the chance to climb higher. He really should have gone over Stone Cold Steve Austin at WrestleMania X8. Hall fucked himself up, though. He has no one else to blame for not getting anywhere but his own premature rockstar attitude. You should only dive into the coke once you are music icons. Hall dived into his shit a little too early. As such, he will be remembered as one of those guys for whom it was "a shame they never made it."

Sean Waltman did help innovate lightweight wrestling in America, you're right. But guess what? Since him there have been so many guys that have done it better. And they don't sleep with Chyna. Waltman is one of those "Rey Mysterio" cruiserweights, though, in my opinion. They got too much push for too little talent. Sure, neither is bad, but neither was too much better than their contemporaries at the time of their segregation. As such, Waltman is the definition of overrated.

HBK: One of the best wrestlers I've ever seen in terms of the wrestling. The only ones to come close are HHH, Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit.
HHH: One of the best wrestlers I've seen (as mentioned). However, never quite captured my imagination like HBK did.
Nash: Great on the mic, but that mic workwas only really found when he went to WCW. As far as wrestling ability goes, mostly bored me to be honest, although he could have a good match with the right opponent (I really liked his match with taker @ WM12?, and his match with HBK at an In Your House.)
Hall: Good on the mic as well. I used to love Razor, but in the end, Scott Hall's biggest problem was Scott Hall. Will be remembered for his bit-part in the NWO and his ladder matches with HBK.
Waltman: He's shite, I don't care what anybody says, I can't stand the guy. I think he's a hopeless wrestler, and I could never buy him as a threat

I wouldn't call Triple H the greatest heel of all-time. ;)

Hyperbole aside, London & Kendrick did get a great run with the belts, and did get some great matches in there. Reinvigorated? Hell no. You need teams for that. But they deserve just as much kudos for doing what they did as Sean Waltman does for jumping around in the mid-nineties.

HHH the greatest heel ever? Surely Piper protests. That guy got stabbed, started riots, and never had to get himself in with the boss's family in order to stay at the top.

HBK oversells, and isnt nearly the wrestler nor stroyteller of say, a Bret Hart. Bret at the age of 42 was still putting on clinics. HBk is in his early 40's now and well, he has had some great chopfests.

Owen was the greatest pure athlete of all time. He learned something, anything with ease. He ushered in the new generation of wrestling.

Hart Foundation..greatest tag team of all time.

Nash inside the ring bombed, unless he got to wrestle the Hitman. He would basically place his oppponent in the corner..dish out a few elbows and knees, and then do his amazing focus a camera lens on the guy thing and then dish out another great elbow. No wonder fans got bored during his title run.
Nash is good on the stick and that's about it.

X-pac was so great that he's got the distinction of being a guy who was willingly let go of his contract to go someplace else.

Hall was decent, I dont have much bad things to say about him.

nWo got big because Hogan turned heel. Without Hogan, it doesnt do the business it did.

IN CONCLUSION:

I RESPECT HBK and HALL...the others I dont even really have much of a problem with...except for Trips, who I think is the most underserving, overrated, untalented sack of crap there has ever been, at least in the main event scene.

WOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Skippord is single handedly better than the entire Kliq.

is it Kliq or Clique?

Mission Accomplished

It is Kliq. Maybe the Kliq is overrated. But still, with out them wrestling wouldn't vastly different. They pretty much had their hand in every major event in wrestling for the past 15 some odd years. If it wasn't for the Kliq, no nWo, no DX, no attitude era, and no hope of Cena ever losing the title.

If it wasn't for the Kliq, Bret would have never gotten screwed. If Bret didn't get screwed, Vince wouldn't have become one of wrestling's top heels. If Vince wasn't a top heel, Stone Cold would have an evil boss to play against as an everyman. Is Stone Cold wasn't an everyman, he would have been booked as a superman face, and we would have hated him the way we hate Cena, Lashley, and Batista.

Every watershed moment in wrestling has involed the Kliq in more than a passing way. So while I might be a Nash mark, and defend him blindly, the Kliq, for better or worse is one of the most import groups in modern wrestling history.

The English word is clique, but they are 2 kewl to use grammer!!!1

I don't think that is actually the case. Sure, they did bring us the nWo and DX, but I don't think you can connect them to Steve Austin's success. Bret getting screwed had more to do with Vince McMahon than Shawn Michaels. If Bret was staying, Hart would have made Michaels tap out like a little bitch.

I doubt we'd have seen "Super Steve." His character was always self-powered. Today we might have seen a Super Steve, but not back when wrestlers had a measure of control over themselves.

[QUOTE=BigDaddyCool]Is Stone Cold wasn't an everyman, he would have been booked as a superman face, and we would have hated him the way we hate Cena, Lashley, and Batista.QUOTE]


superman, over the top, talented face Austin > superman, over the top, no-talent SuperCena, Bobby "Guy Smiley" Lashley, and Big Dave.

No matter how you look at it.

The only bit I really disagree with here is the "fluked his way to the top" part. Hunter made it to the top before banging Steph. And at a time when the main event was flourishing with Austin, Rock, Mankind, Undertaker and a strong second tier with Shamrock, Big Show, Kane, Jericho, Jarret, etc. Also, in my opinion Flair is an average in ring performer but his psychology, charisma, etc. drove him to the top.

No, it mostly had to do with Hart not wanting to lose to Micheals because of things Micheals said and did before that. WWF then felt its hands were tied and did what they felt was right. If it was anyone else Bret was defending against, there is reason to believe he would have done the job.

I love how certain people like to "forget" timelines when it comes to HHH but rant and rave about the timeline with Bret Hart...

:lol: That was awesome. Now do Scotty 2 Hotty.

Hardly a qualifier. Piper was a heel in an entirely different atmosphere; the end of the time when a lot of the audience were drunk 25-40 something men who didn't take much convincing to believe that wrestling was real. HHH had to get himself over as a heel in a time where you had to be more than loud and obnoxious to be a great heel, and a time when if you weren't careful, you might get cheered.

Hart a better storyteller than Michaels... no. Hart tells one story regardless of the circumstances: "I'm the greatest ever and I'm a crybaby when I lose." And that's just kayfabe. Clinics do not good storytelling make, and if you have a problem with overselling, you must have a problem with Ric Flair.

There is a whole thread about Owen's overratedness. He was a part of something big, but he ushered in nothing.

Pheh. If Bret's career had ended when the Foundation did, he would be largely forgettable as a guy who wore pink.

Nash's title run was boring because the WWF was boring at the time. He won the title out of the blue, had no good feuds and no real competition. But the man moves with purpose in the ring and is the best big man champion WWF had for a long time.

Waltman was excellent in the role of a runty little sidekick, either as a greasy little punk or a greasy little prankster. As soon as he tried to get over without his big brothers, he became annoying and useless.

The general opinion of Hall seems to be that he's good, and could have been great if he could only have gotten over his personal problems. Very sad, but in this case I think everyone agrees.

By the same principle though, it doesn't do the business without Hall and Nash. I'm sick of this "Hogan made the nWo" bullshit; it was what it was because of EVERYONE involved at the top; without Hall and Nash and the Kliq attitude they brought with them, nWo ends up being a failed Hogan heel turn.

A "clique" is an in-crowd group of friends, a sort of informal club. "The Kliq" specifically refers to those particular wrestlers.

[QUOTE=Alienoid06]The One, I like you, but look how easy it is to spin things like that:

PAUL LONDON: Can work a technical style, and can fly. He's charismatic, got a cult fanbase, QUOTE]

I stopped reading there.

Alienoid's got a point. It's not like he's saying "PAUL LONDON 4 CHAMPION!!!!" He's saying "Yeah, well, this is what's wrong with spin."

SCOTTIE 2 HOTTIE : Started off in the Tag Division where he cut his teeth, has a great move that the crowd notices and gets behind every time it's used, never fully appreciated by the company, has a great look, gets better with age...

Sorry, I can't fucking do this anymore...I think I'm going to be sick.

What do you want from me, I'm a Republican, the only way we can argue points is with spin. :shifty:

I thought we overrated everyone here on TPWW. :?:

That statement is overrated.

Being overrated is overrated.

Pointing out things that are overrated is overrated.

Yeah, well pointing out that pointing out that things that are overrated is overrated, is overrated. :shifty:

Tovo's new mission in life...to find something that the people of TPWW don't find to be either over rated or under rated.

Tovo - In search of just being Rated.

Hm. Let me see... something that nobody either overrates or underrates...
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Howard Finkel?

Totally over rated. :roll:

I had to stop when I got to the point where you wrote Piper was hardly a qualifier, and then even tried convincing me HHH was a better heel than him.

After getting that out of the way, all you need to do is watch HBK...his matches are just less realistic than a guy like Brets...HBK jumps around, exposing the business at times...yeah that's showmanship, but I prefer the guys that get down with it..that take it to you..not only that but HBK gives the same half ass chops to guys like the fucking big show, as he would to Rey Mysterio...Hart tries to take it to guys of various sizes and stregths differently, as would most smart wrestlers...and he's HBK having fucking chopfests with giants. His psychology has always been a bit overrated.

At first I thought this thread was about TPWWs kliq.\

I'm saddened to find that it isn't.

TPWW's Kliq is a collection of gods amoung posters.

Or a cancer that is killing TPWW.

LMAO! Killing TPWW? Let me tell you something, I've been here since the start, and with all the ups and downs in popularity and useage, since the Kliq started doing their thing, this has been the most active the Wrestling Section has ever been. So don't feed me that shit.

Dude, Blitz is the cancer of Tpww.

Makes me remember why I quit coming here.

Also, I've been here longer than the One. And it is true, the Kliq has made people interested about wrestling again.

No one is asking you to stay.

Then stop coming by. The lose of you will certainly not mean the rest of TPWW will shirvle up and blow away like a Canadian leaf.

Nice. Neg repped for an opinion. :)

The Kliq promotes individual thought!

Did I ever say it would?

I neg repped you for calling me cancer. KK neg reps people for their opinions.

Actually, since the stand point of the Kliq is to 9 times out of 10 to go against the flow of the status quo of the Internet World, you very well may have just made an actual valid endorsement....regardless of how filled with sarcasim it may have been.:D

HHH, top this:

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and....

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LjWfARAhSdk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LjWfARAhSdk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

You know, Kliq fan though I may be, I never thought I'd be sticking up for HHH like this. Frankly, I'm sick of all this "Piper=Best Heel Ever" nonsense. What I meant about qualifiers was that you can't say Piper was such a great heel because he started riots and got stabbed. Piper was a heel in the time when all you needed to do to be one was to be loud, obnoxious, and insulting, and he was the most loud, obnoxious, and insulting of them all. The fans in HHH's day all understand that the man is giving an act. I don't even buy Piper as the best heel of the 80s; I'd be far more inclined to give that distinction to Ted Dibiase.

THAT is supposed to be a demonstration of why the man is a great heel? Making out with a chubby-cheeked guy with a mullet and hitting a man with fruit?

And sigs.

No, that's just part of it. Those two segments alone are already better than anything Trips has ever been involved in.

Ted Dibiase was a great heel, but he had a gimmick of I'm better than you because I have lots of money. That's a great way of sticking it to fans who are all hard working class citizens. Of course they're going to boo that man.

Piper acted like himself...he had no gimmick really. He was ahead of his time by a mile...and he drew the ire of everyone just by opening his mouth. He didnt have to flaunt anything. Dibiase never got that kind of heat, otherwise he'd have stuck himself in the main event scene far longer then he ever did.
btw, there is another guy better then HHH at being a heel.

Still though, Piper stands alone. And this has nothing to do with what generation Piper worked in while being a top heel..if we are to believe that the fans back then arent getting that what Piper is doing is all for show and an act, then in actuality my man, you are giving Piper a ton of credit for making them suspend their belief and not only that, but you're saying Piper was so fucking amazing that people actually really thought Piper was exactly like that, and they outright hated the man for it. So basically, Piper was amazing.

[QUOTE=Zen v.W.o.]
btw, there is another guy better then HHH at being a heel.

Edge

Are you on the dope, son?

:shifty:

did i just get neg repped for that?

Yeah. If you're gonna use the quote, use it right, dammit.

Harsh. oh well, i was gonna get negged at some point, shame it was from a pidget

Watch it, little man, I'll poop on your head.

Piper was great

I think that it isn't fair to compare the qualities that heels from different eras bring to the table. Different times = Different heels. Trips is the top heel for a reason. Edge could be a top heel but he keeps hitting that damned glass ceiling!!!!:lol:

Piper = An era of wrestling were Kayfabe was still kept. Do you know how easy it is to get drunk rednecks to hate you? Not saying Piper wasn't a GOD at it, but I'm sorry Triple H had to get over a heel in an era were bad ass (which he was) were considered cool. A time when people knew is was staged and even the most casual fans began to cheer for the dirtiest of heels. The point is, if you transplant Piper to the late 90's or you uprooted Triple H to the mid 80's...Hunter comes out on top. I'm sorry, but there has never been a better heel than Triple H was when he first began working his "The Game" gimmick...which wasn't much of a gimmick as it was a collection of character traits, but still...

Plus, in the ring, Triple H is easily in the top 10 best ring workers of all time. Piper, doesn't crack that list.

The man is a great heel. LONG LIVE LEVESQUE!!! *slurp*

lol, Piper got the most out of the crowd, Piper could work them much better than HHH ever could for one.

Stop making excuses. Piper is a heel umrivalled by anyone today, especially HHH. HHH isnt even top 5 for this generation. If he was so good, he wouldnt have gotten cheered over Cena while being a heel. Piper would have made Cena look like an uberface, easily.

HHH tries to be cool, tries to do things that will get pops over faces..something a good heel knows not to do.

Piper was badass, something HHH tries way too hard to be, but just cant pull off.

As for matches, Piper was a great brawler. He stuck to that style. HHH is a great bore. Technically better, but hey, the guy is so methodical, he usually relies on his opponent to carry the match enough to keep the fans intrigued.
Piper had them intrigued as soon as the bagpipes started playing up his entrance, he was that fucking amazing.
As an overall performer, and for impact, Piper is elite. HHH is nowhere near it.

Zen, you may be the first and only person I have ever met who could topple even me in the department of blind fallowing of favorites to the point of making arguments which are so far from the truth that it calls into question your validity as a legit fan in the first place.

I mean, I still am probably better at it than you are, but you're at least giving me a run for my money.

lol

Fuck Piper had grown fucking men attacking him. I dont care what era you're apart of, grown men should know pro wrestling is NOT REAL.

Piper got them to forget that because he was too fucking good. Or should I say......"That damn good".

Sorry Trips.

HHH needs to keep politicking his way to simply stay atop the ladder. He had HBK get him his first push, then he had the rock and foley make him look decent, then he dumps his boyfriend chyna for the boss' daughter, and he claims a bunch of titles he had no business touching.

See, HHH figured he NEEDED a bunch of awards and titles to look credible, to look like a big time, main event player.

As everyone else stated, Piper didnt need that because he looked the part all on his own, and it's true.....it never failed him.

I have been questioning your sanity since the begining of this thread, The One.

I am slightly aghast.

I do think holding ten world titles in 5 years is a little much.

BAGPIPES!!!! You went nuts for bagpipes?????



you want to see a pop wait till Hunter's music hits.... THAT'S A POP!
well, maybe not the conan one, but nobody's perfect....

The Rock is the Rock because of the NOD/DX feuds, Triple H made the Rock look good too.

Triple H repackaged being a heel, and the heel stable(GOD I miss evolution!)
While 10 straps in 5 years is a bit much, so is holding a strap for a god damned decade HOGAN!

Piper never held a belt because of the orignal glass ceiling.... HOGAN! Championships DO matter, don't fool yourself.

Nah they dont anymore really. Just look at the roster today. Name a guy that hasnt worn a title of any kind. There are so many, and so many title swappages nowadays that they dont mean nearly as much.
Titles today are mere props. They are used to get a guy over moreso then giving it to a guy that got over and deserves it in a big way.

I mean hell, three world titles are now up for grabs. It diminishes everything.


btw I just love bagpipes. One of my fave sounding instruments. They move me.

Bullshit.

I agree with you on many points, but on this one, you're full of crap.

I'd also like to note, in the "times are changing" category, when I was growing up, it seemed like cheering a heel was a good way to get lynched. That really changed.

Even as a kid I always like the bad guys, I remember likingn Razor and Shawn both when they were heels back in 92-94. I also never liked Hogan.

Wow...Um...So?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...usAlliance.jpg

How bout what each of these 6 individuals have achieved?
Maybe not money wise, but definitely more talented in my opinion.