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D Mac 07-04-2007 04:19 PM

Fallout 3
 
http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/...result;title;1

Fuck yeah. This better be awesome.

We have a long time to wait tho, until the fall of next year. :(

Fignuts 07-04-2007 05:12 PM

Fallout 2 is tied with Baldur's Gate for title of my favorite rpg. So awesome.

Fignuts 07-04-2007 05:12 PM

I still remember marking out when I got the road warrior outfit in the first one.

diothoir 07-04-2007 07:54 PM

Please let this be as awesome as I hope.

D Mac 07-05-2007 02:13 AM

Looks awesome so far. But it is really early.

Extreme Angle 07-05-2007 06:21 AM

Yeah I'd never heard of fallout untill I downloaded the trailer yesterday.
Was abit weird at the beggining with the war music and broken train and all,
then that weird guy...
Whats the actual story?

D Mac 07-06-2007 04:01 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_(computer_game)
Download or buy the PC games. Fucking addicting.

D Mac 07-06-2007 04:03 AM

Oh and that voice at the end of the trailer was Ron Pearlman. AKA Hellboy. :D

diothoir 07-06-2007 08:53 PM

I marked out like fuck when he talked tbh.

Xerzes 07-15-2007 05:21 AM

That it will also be released for consoles is less than promising. Makes me worried they'll fuck it up.

Here's hoping I'm wrong, and that it will be another masterpiece like the first two. (Fuck you, Nintendo 64 installment.)

Fignuts 07-15-2007 10:57 AM

Its being made by the same people who did oblivion, and thats awesome either on consol or PC, so I don't think you'll have to worry about that.

D Mac 07-17-2008 07:01 AM

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rg9t7uXkLyA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rg9t7uXkLyA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Destor 07-17-2008 10:27 PM

Looks so great I can't even put it to words.

Indifferent Clox 07-23-2008 06:32 AM

check out the pics on the official site (someone less lazy post_ you can do limb specific damage while guys are in the air, like blowing someone's leg off while they are flipping and shit. KIDS ARE WEARING BIRTHDAY HATS AND SITTING AT A RESTARUANT TABLE!!! What is this GTA4 on apocolyptic ecstasy?
SPOILER: show
pun intended

D Mac 07-23-2008 06:34 AM

Yeah they're already saying this is the RPG of the year.

Indifferent Clox 07-23-2008 06:40 AM

I'm already saying this is the RPG of the ever.

D Mac 07-23-2008 06:47 AM

Nah Oblivion is.

Extreme Angle 07-23-2008 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Mac (Post 2226408)
Nah Oblivion is.

:y:

Anyway I downloaded the fallout collection. 1 doesn't work on vista so...
2 Does. Not digging it tbh. The view is abit weird, and I cant see the whole area well.
I'm sure 3 will be great, but 2 looks shoddy IMO. Maybe it was great for its time, but I really can't play it.

D Mac 07-23-2008 07:46 AM

Fallout 3 is using the Oblivion engine, FYI.

Indifferent Clox 07-23-2008 07:58 AM

Oblivion was amazing, probably the top of my list atm. No doubt, but the level of fallout 3 looks to be much more tremendous.

actually my list for top 10 RPGs is

1. Earthbound
2. Oblivion and Morrowind
3. Fallout 1 and 2
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Deus Ex 1 and 2
HM to Jade Empire/ Kotor and the FF and Dragon warrior series

Adventure games are actually my fav genre

Sierra's games (kings quest, space quest, police quest, Leisure suit larry, etc.)
the lucas arts games (monkey Island Sam and Max)
and SHENMUE OMG
I mean myst and riven were great as well.. but too puzzily and not enough charecter ...


I don't know why I got on this

But Fallout may be the best RPG of all time.

GTA4 was amazing though, dunno if ti'll beat that

NoJabbaNoBogRoll 07-23-2008 08:05 AM

Am I the only person who thinks Oblivion is terrible?

U-Warrior 07-23-2008 10:18 AM

I didn't think it was terrible, but its not my favorite rpg. Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Chrono Trigger, and FF 7, were all much more enjoyable for me.

Extreme Angle 07-23-2008 12:58 PM

Yeah FF7 shits on them

KingofOldSchool 07-23-2008 01:06 PM

Earthbound is terrible

D Mac 07-23-2008 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoJabbaNoBogRoll (Post 2226430)
Am I the only person who thinks Oblivion is terrible?

yes

Destor 07-23-2008 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Mac (Post 2226421)
Fallout 3 is using the Oblivion engine, FYI.

Aren't they both made by Bethesda?

U-Warrior 07-23-2008 03:22 PM

Yeah, Bethseda is making Fallout 3.

Destor 07-23-2008 03:29 PM

That's what I thought. Then it's a shoe-in for best RPG of EVER.

Indifferent Clox 07-26-2008 09:48 PM

After playing all the games again My new tally is

1. Deus Ex
2. Fallout 1 and 2
3. System Shock 2
4. Oblivion/ morrowind
5. Earthbound

D Mac 07-27-2008 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destor (Post 2226687)
That's what I thought. Then it's a shoe-in for best RPG of EVER.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Mac (Post 2226408)
Nah Oblivion is.


Destor 07-27-2008 05:12 PM

For now.

D Mac 07-27-2008 05:14 PM

"Not now, not later, not ever."

:lol:

D Mac 09-24-2008 07:12 AM

Pre ordered my copy! WOOOOOOOOOOO Can't fucking wait.

Hanso Amore 09-24-2008 08:46 PM

I am going to literally fucking the case of this on the way home when it drops.

Destor 10-14-2008 10:10 PM

Just watched the X-Play special on this super hyped. Makers said the main story is about 25 hours, with the potential for 100+ with the side quests. And with as much random wandering as I plan to do I might be able to get 140 out of this bad boy. :love:

Can't wait to get a 360.

Hanso Amore 10-14-2008 11:01 PM

Side note: The main quests on Fallout 1 and 2 were only like 10 hours too. So that isnt that odd.

Destor 10-14-2008 11:05 PM

25 hour main quest is awesome.

#BROKEN Hasney 10-15-2008 05:58 AM

You know how I was saying that the main story was really short? Turns out after talking with some others who have the game, I accidentally skipped a few chapters!

D Mac 10-15-2008 06:18 AM

Haha Hasney

I knew you were full of it. :p

D Mac 10-15-2008 06:19 AM

I feel better about this now, whew.

#BROKEN Hasney 10-15-2008 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Mac (Post 2316331)
Haha Hasney

I knew you were full of it. :p

Not really, I shall tell you how I did it below.

SPOILER: show
Basically, after you escape the vault you're looking for your father. Instead of doing that I was on a side quest to write a survival book. During the writing of the 3rd chapter, I decided to explore some memorial site and I found some holotapes that he had recorded. To get to that point would have apparantly taken 5 hours in itsself following the main quest.


I'm a massive Oblivion fan, but this is much better. Complete awesomeness.

Bad Company 10-20-2008 08:32 AM

Hey Hansey, any idea where I get the dog? :)

#BROKEN Hasney 10-20-2008 12:36 PM

What dog? Other than the ones that try to kill you....

Also, BC, you d/ling Gears of War 2 yet? :D

Outsider 10-20-2008 12:54 PM

Argh! I can only afford either this or Fable.

Which one do I get? :(

#BROKEN Hasney 10-20-2008 01:03 PM

BC, do you mean the dog that

SPOILER: show
is in the computer simulation of a 1950s street?

#BROKEN Hasney 10-20-2008 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outsider (Post 2320830)
Argh! I can only afford either this or Fable.

Which one do I get? :(

Well, which did you prefer out of Oblivion and Fable? They're both very similar to their predecessors so if you know the answer to that it should be easy for you.

If you haven't played one or both then Fallout 3 is the more hardcore game, combat is an in-depth experience using up your AP points and having to repair weapons all the time while Fable 2 is very friendly, there's not even a magic bar for spells, you just have to charge up higher level ones.

In terms of atmosphere, Fable 2 is a very interactive enviroment with lots of things going on and weddings, baby making and all this things to do, especially with your best buddy the dog. Fallout 3 feels like a desolate wasteland, which it's supposed to. Fable 2 also has an awesome sense of humor which is very British.

Overall, I'd say Fable 2 because it feels very much like a Zelda game with a lot of extras but they're both similar only in the fact they're called RPGs, they're completley different in every way really and in a lot of crucial design elements, they're polar opposites of each other.

Fable 2 has more replay value and the co-op sells it for me easily. But DLC could change that for either game.

They're both fantastic games though so if you just flip a coin, you can't lose.

Bad Company 10-20-2008 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasney (Post 2320831)
BC, do you mean the dog that

SPOILER: show
is in the computer simulation of a 1950s street?

Nope, supposedly there's a dog you can recruit to follow you around.

Bad Company 10-20-2008 06:09 PM

And this thread has a few leads to his existance.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genme...5894572&page=1

Destor 10-20-2008 06:35 PM

Hasney, I'm doubting you played this game beyond the prolouge.

Destor 10-20-2008 06:55 PM

The trailer on the first page shows you with the dog btw.

Destor 10-20-2008 07:18 PM

Gameplay vids from Bethesda:

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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wcrRM97DzRI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wcrRM97DzRI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GV2Aja_ibFg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GV2Aja_ibFg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AqfYd0RP2O0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AqfYd0RP2O0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4pBKOtzZkBk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4pBKOtzZkBk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Bad Company 10-20-2008 07:28 PM

I've put about 23 hours into it so far.
Fucking awesome.

Hansey, I'm currently picking up Fable 2, Golden Axe Beast Rider, Moto GP 08, PES 09 and Saints Row 2.

#BROKEN Hasney 10-20-2008 07:31 PM

Add Hasney as a friend on XBox Live and you can see I've completed the main quest and a bunch of side quests :p

#BROKEN Hasney 10-20-2008 07:31 PM

Let me know how Golden Axe is, bit iffy on grabbing it.

Try them all before Fable 2 though, that's kinda addictive :D

Bad Company 10-21-2008 12:49 AM

After reading the review on Golden Axe, I decided not to waste my bandwidth :p

Funky Fly 10-21-2008 02:54 AM

Yeah, IGN, who are pretty lenient, skewered Golden Axe.

#BROKEN Hasney 10-21-2008 04:07 AM

Play gave it a 90, but they said the "lack of multiplayer" was on of its strengths....

#BROKEN Hasney 10-21-2008 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Company (Post 2321584)
After reading the review on Golden Axe, I decided not to waste my bandwidth :p

Well, replace it with Guitar Hero World Tour. That's just been leaked.

Bad Company 10-21-2008 05:43 PM

Sooooooooooooooooooooo. Concerning the end of the game.
SPOILER: show

I've just finished the game, pretty fucken shit that you can't go do other quests after you've finished the main quest. As I was overwriting some of my previous saves, besides the final room, the last one I have was when I was getting the GOECK or whatever it's called, I have to do shitloads of the game again. I'm hoping I can not push the buttons at the end and will just turn around and go back to do some more quests.

#BROKEN Hasney 10-21-2008 05:51 PM

Not sure on that one BC

SPOILER: show
I loaded a save just before starting the final mission and told the bitch I wasn't ready to go yet to do some more quests and half the fucking place was blocked off by the enclaves plasma walls so I couldn't do barely any of them. Not sure after the robot smashed them all up if you can actually go do other quests

I think there's 4 "different" endings, but only a couple of pictures change and the VO changes slightly, pretty gay.

Still a damn good game though, despite the main quest

Destor 10-21-2008 06:23 PM

Yo BC, how many hours did you put in it before you beat it?

Bad Company 10-21-2008 08:54 PM

30 odd hours inc a few side quests, but I bypassed some of the main quest the same way Hansey did, due to me wanting to do cool side quests and falling across more advanced main quest stuff along the way. Beware, if you compete the main quest it seems you are done for as far as completing any other quests go.

D Mac 10-22-2008 05:09 AM

You can't continue after the main quest? That blows :n:

D Mac 10-28-2008 01:53 AM

Picking up my copy tomorrow. WOOOOOOOOOO

D Mac 10-28-2008 01:57 AM

IGN Review:

9.5 Presentation
The atmosphere and style are everything you could ask for and more. A few bugs and camera issues keep things from perfection.
9.0 Graphics
The landscapes are wonderful. The character models and animations could be a lot better.
9.5 Sound
Excellent voice acting and a soundtrack that completely fits the game's mood. The sound effects aren't bad either.
10 Gameplay
A rare combination of excellent combat and deep role-playing.
9.5 Lasting Appeal
A more focused experience than much of what Bethesda has created in the past that begs to be played for hours and hours. This is one game you won't soon forget.

9.6 Incredible OVERALL
(out of 10 / not an average)

U-Warrior 10-28-2008 03:37 AM

Wow, just bought GHWT and Farcry 2, and they're already going to get put away for a while.

ClockShot 10-28-2008 09:55 AM

Small little tidbit you might find interesting.

Bethesda top brass orders all marketing pulled for Fallout 3. From trailers, banners, etc. Word is it's making some people in D.C. a little edgy.

Bethesda Pulls Fallout 3 Marketing 'In Connection with ESRB Guidelines'
by Blake Ellison Oct 27, 2008 6:36pm CST tags: Fallout 3, ESRB

Censorship and Bethesda's Fallout 3 (PC, 360, PS3) are good friends, and the two just got a little closer: Bethesda has asked gaming websites including Shacknews to pull all trailers for the open-world RPG.

The request came from Bethesda marketing VP Pete Hines in an e-mail which is reproduced below. The e-mail does not delve into the reasoning behind the decision, but says the request is "in connection with ESRB's advertising guidelines."

The move comes on the eve of Fallout 3's release, with thousands of retailers ready to start selling the game at midnight tonight, and follows a widely-reported public complaint regarding depictions of post-apocalyptic Washington DC in Fallout 3 ads.

The ESRB struck last year when news outlets including Shacknews were asked to remove trailers for D3 Publisher's Dark Sector, with the rating board citing "gameplay montages [which] have been deemed to contain excessive or offensive content."

The full e-mail from Hines follows:

In connection with ESRB's advertising guidelines, you are instructed to remove immediately any of our Fallout 3 trailers from your website, pending further notice.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Pete

D Mac 10-28-2008 12:53 PM

Got it. :cool:

D Mac 10-28-2008 03:51 PM

It's Awesome. Didn't know Liam Neeson was in it.

U-Warrior 10-28-2008 10:05 PM

Fucking awesome game. Loving this shit right now.

U-Warrior 10-29-2008 02:44 AM

asdfghjkl

D Mac 10-29-2008 06:10 AM

Played for about 7 hours total so far doing different shit and only gotten as far as Super Duper Mart. Doing the Wasteland Survival Guide quest right now. All I have left is Minefield. Killed that Mr. Burke guy. Gonna be a good guy this time and the 2nd time through I'll be evil.

U-Warrior 10-29-2008 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Mac (Post 2329507)
Played for about 7 hours total so far doing different shit and only gotten as far as Super Duper Mart. Doing the Wasteland Survival Guide quest right now. All I have left is Minefield. Killed that Mr. Burke guy. Gonna be a good guy this time and the 2nd time through I'll be evil.

Thats only chapter 1 of the survival guide. There's more afterwards. Best quest I've done in megaton was bloodties.

D Mac 10-29-2008 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Warrior (Post 2329551)
Thats only chapter 1 of the survival guide. There's more afterwards.

Ugh

U-Warrior 10-29-2008 08:01 PM

Dunno, the supermarket one was fun, what with the robot on your side and everything.

I didn't even do the minefield one. I just lied and said I did, and gave her oneof the mines I picked up on the bloodties quest.

Sepholio 10-31-2008 02:48 PM

Wow, this game is incredible. The only gripe I have so far is the layout of Rivet City. It makes sense due to its location, but come on, that shit is awful for trying to find everyone there.

Indifferent Clox 10-31-2008 06:48 PM

the robot didn't even come out in the supermarket for me :( maybe next time when I'm evil it will.

U-Warrior 10-31-2008 09:24 PM

What? you have to activate it by hacking the terminal next to it.

U-Warrior 11-01-2008 11:33 AM

lol came across a group of raiders doing a hazing ritual. One was in the middle with no armor, and the others were whacking him with sticks, saying "don't flinch!". Targeted the middle one for a grenade strike, with V.A.T.S, and watched as all five flew 15 feet in the air in slow motion. Fuckin' great.

Also, I was on a side quest that gives you an ally. Ran into some super mutants toward the end, and one jumped her while she was reloading. So I ran over with my sledgehammer, since I built my guy up to be a melee powerhouse, and swung for the fences. Aaaaaaaaaand struck a critical blow on my ally instead of the mutant. Yeah she was dead. Good news was I didnt have to split the money for the mission, got her superior combat armor, ad siiiiick custom 10mm. But there are additional missions from the same employer that she may have helped me on. Oh well.

D Mac 11-01-2008 02:58 PM

You can't kill kids. I tried.

Destor 11-01-2008 03:28 PM

gay

Destor 11-01-2008 03:28 PM

So D-Mac, next to Oblivion how does this stand up?

D Mac 11-01-2008 03:30 PM

It's right at the top with it. A few similarities, but overall different.

UmbrellaCorporation 11-01-2008 04:22 PM

Yeah, this game is great.

Haven't gotten too far, as I'm busy exploring, but I just finished the thing where you raid the old Super Duper Mart or whatever it is. And I'm looking for some doctor's android.

It's pretty cool.

Funky Fly 11-01-2008 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Warrior (Post 2331829)
lol came across a group of raiders doing a hazing ritual. One was in the middle with no armor, and the others were whacking him with sticks, saying "don't flinch!". Targeted the middle one for a grenade strike, with V.A.T.S, and watched as all five flew 15 feet in the air in slow motion. Fuckin' great.

Also, I was on a side quest that gives you an ally. Ran into some super mutants toward the end, and one jumped her while she was reloading. So I ran over with my sledgehammer, since I built my guy up to be a melee powerhouse, and swung for the fences. Aaaaaaaaaand struck a critical blow on my ally instead of the mutant. Yeah she was dead. Good news was I didnt have to split the money for the mission, got her superior combat armor, ad siiiiick custom 10mm. But there are additional missions from the same employer that she may have helped me on. Oh well.

lol shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

Sepholio 11-03-2008 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Warrior (Post 2331829)
lol came across a group of raiders doing a hazing ritual. One was in the middle with no armor, and the others were whacking him with sticks, saying "don't flinch!". Targeted the middle one for a grenade strike, with V.A.T.S, and watched as all five flew 15 feet in the air in slow motion. Fuckin' great.

Also, I was on a side quest that gives you an ally. Ran into some super mutants toward the end, and one jumped her while she was reloading. So I ran over with my sledgehammer, since I built my guy up to be a melee powerhouse, and swung for the fences. Aaaaaaaaaand struck a critical blow on my ally instead of the mutant. Yeah she was dead. Good news was I didnt have to split the money for the mission, got her superior combat armor, ad siiiiick custom 10mm. But there are additional missions from the same employer that she may have helped me on. Oh well.


LOL nice. I let the girl take flak for me while I popped the muties from a distance just so I could get that sweet gun she has. I have far better weapons now, but for 10mm ammo, that gun is the best shit I have found. When you whacked her, did her head fly off?

Sepholio 11-03-2008 12:59 PM

Oh yeah, does anyone have anything better than Tesla armor? I have a pretty mint set w/ the helm on and it is the godliest equip I have found yet. When you wear that and pull out the Shiskebab you look like the most badass mother fucker that has ever lived.

U-Warrior 11-03-2008 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seph (Post 2333293)
LOL nice. I let the girl take flak for me while I popped the muties from a distance just so I could get that sweet gun she has. I have far better weapons now, but for 10mm ammo, that gun is the best shit I have found. When you whacked her, did her head fly off?

No, unfortunately.

I don't care what anyone says, knocking someone's head clean off with the sledgehammer is way cooler than shooting it.

Sepholio 11-06-2008 10:07 PM

It's also awesome when using the Supersledge, Fisto! or Shishkebab. I fucking LOVE the shishkebab.

Big Fat Mike 11-06-2008 10:25 PM

I seriously bought this expecting something else completley, and yet I was so pleasantly surprised with what I have so far. I got it last night and I haven't been able to stop playing - yet I haven't done dick outside of the vault yet except kill things and people with my baseball bat.

Sepholio 11-07-2008 12:58 AM

I just exploded Moira's head with a well-timed Fisto! shot from behind. Seriously ROFL moment. "Don't mind the smoke, it is perfectly safe to bre-" KerSPLAT.

Also, The Pintsized Slasher is my fucking hero.

Does anyone know roughly where the UFO is by chance?

U-Warrior 11-07-2008 02:00 AM

Sweet, there is a UFO in this one? I whad a faint hope that a bridgekeeper would be too.

Sepholio 11-07-2008 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Warrior (Post 2337641)
Sweet, there is a UFO in this one? I whad a faint hope that a bridgekeeper would be too.

Of course theres a UFO. It is where you get the alien blaster.

U-Warrior 11-07-2008 02:53 AM

Cool. Love all these little nods to the previous games. Bethseda definitely did their homework.

D Mac 11-07-2008 12:06 PM

All I have left for the Survival Guide is the Library.

Funky Fly 11-07-2008 07:36 PM

Just got this and Dead Space. Not gonna play it till next year tho, with Fable 2 and Smackdown 09 up in my shit.

Destor 11-07-2008 07:44 PM

I got to play this. It's REALLY great.

Sepholio 11-08-2008 12:05 AM

ROFL just ran into Uncle Leo. Serious wtf moment. I was gonna blast his ass, but he didn't seem hostile. Seriously though, a friendly, half-naked super mutant who was laughed at and exiled for wanting peace. Gotta love this shit.

FearedSanctity 11-09-2008 09:49 AM

My ending didn't come out right :-\

SPOILER: show
I chose to be good, so the first half was right, talking about me not giving in and all that shit. But for the sacrifice part, it said I'd refused to follow the father, despite me going into the control room and entering the code. And didn't even mention me not putting that virus thing in the water. Lame.

Hanso Amore 11-09-2008 01:27 PM

Just got this to pass time while I am on the mend.


I played for 9 hous straight.

HOLY FUCK IT IS AMAZING!

I am a total ass. I kill randoms and loot them for no reason! :)

I found Tenpenny tower, and allowed the ghouls to murder everyone while I looted the place to the ground!

What an amazing fucking game. VATS system is AWESOME.

My only problem is the hacking game, it is totally hit or miss.


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