So if Foley wasn't supposed to fall through the top of the cell
 

how were they supposed to get down?

Foley only climbed back up because Taker was still up there and Foley was concussed and raging with adrenaline?

Well, either that, or both bumps were planned and that's why the section of the cage roof was rigged to fall open on hinges.

It wasn't planned.

yea, Foley and Taker never planned on even going up. It was pretty much ad-libed

Climbing down?

I mean come on, people have actually climbed down in matches before. It's like asking "If JFK didn't plan to be shot, how else was he going to end his car ride?"

Which is why Terry Funk has continually taken credit for coming up with the idea for the bump the day before, and telling Foley about it? Or how about the fact that Foley has recounted several times how the Undertaker tried to convince him not to go through with it before the match?

There's never been any real doubt that the bump was planned. It is the mysterious second bump which is often disputed ('was it planned or an accident?). I say it was set up, but then I don't know.

I invented the internet. See how easy that is?

While I'm at it, I am responsible for the Attitude Era, I created ECW but gave credit to Paul Heyman (Mostly because he let me use his basement) I put the needle in Benoit's arm, and I actually bought Nick Hogan's beer.

Now, I'd address the rest, but the notion that Foley has said Taker tried to dissuade him is a new one to me.

Yeah, well I screwed Bret. I win.

Foley admitted himself that it was Funk's idea in an interview with Power Slam in the UK which is a reputable magazine which doesn't embellish or kayfabe its material.

Pretty sure that was in his first book. I've definitely read Foley saying that a couple times, can't be 100% sure where exactly, but Have A Nice Day sounds about right.

The first one was planned, and Foley had talked about going up to the top with Taker to start it off before the PPV. It's all in his book.

The second fall wasn't planned. The cage actually did break away and Undertaker really did think that Foley was dead.

If you murder your opponent, is it a win or a DQ?

If they were just going to climb down without having another bump planned, how would they have made it believable?

Not trying to be sarcastic here. I can't think of a scenario where they would both climb down without someone taking a bump and make it look like part of the match.

Depends. Like if you choke him to death but you break before 5, it's a win. If not, its a DQ.

Wasn't Taker already half way down the cage when Foley was getting off the stretcher?

I swear I read somewhere or even heard Foley say he got the idea to start at the top when he came down the isle and Taker had no choice but to follow him up. Then when they were up there Foley told Taker to toss him. I think it's on that DVD. I'll have to rewatch now

If the cage had held after Taker had chokeslammed Foley, he could have climbed down and worked the crowd a bit, gone inside the cage and maybe tossed the steps into the ring or tossed some chairs in or even just paced around with his hands on his hips. Or maybe start to walk away like even he couldn't believe how ridiculous Mick Foley was while he climbed down then they meet back up in the ring.

He's said it a couple of times, and I think I have it on DVD myself. Though he did spend a lot of time concussed.

Chris Benoit wasnt suppose to kill Daniel

ok, now that I think about it, I'm sure he said he talked to Terry Funk beforehand about starting on top. That's on the DVD. but I don't think he told Taker about it. And I'm sure he mentioned he wispered to Taker to throw him off when they were up there

Yes he was. Hitler took credit for giving him the idea in "Mein Kampf"

I think he would have gotten down from the top of the cell by climbing down.

Taker had a broken foot going into that match. Plus he's THE veteran of the WWE and I'd wager calls and lays out the majority of his matches, most likely ALL of them.

Foley - in 1998, or ever in fact - didn't have the clout to go over Taker's head and force the guy into that situation without clearing it with him first. How was he to even know if Taker could physically climb the cage with his broken foot?

I'm just saying what Foley said, that's all. I'll post it later when I get home

i'm far from an expert on this stuff, but I recall Foley said the first was planned and claims the 2nd wasn't that the section of the cage "gave way" but there was also speculation he was lieing because his wife flipped out over the 2 bumps and wanted to assure her the 2nd one wasn't planned.

In Foleys first book doesn't he say how he had the idea on how to start the match and spoke to Taker about it and was told by him that he was insane but eventually went through with it anyway.

<font color=goldenrod>I always laugh when I see Taker drop down from the cell into the ring after Foley's 2nd bump. You can just tell Taker is thinking for a second "FUCK why did I do that when I have a broken foot?"</font>

From my memory it went something like this (from various interviews and Foley's books):

Terry Funk and Foley were in the ring coming up with ideas for the match on the Saturday at the arena. Funk told Foley he had to come up with something huge to top the awesome HBK-Taker HIAC from the previous October. He then suggested starting the match on top of the cage, and (perhaps jokingly) suggested taking a bump off the top. Foley, I believe, shot it down but later started seriously considering it.

The next day he told the Taker, who refused to do it. With Foley nagging him, he must have eventually agreed to it.

Who really knows about the second bump, it does seem unneccesarily dangerous and uncontrollable, but also that panel gave way far too easily.

Not disagreeing with you but earlier in the match the two were walking on the top of the cell and Taker's foot broke through part of the cage without any extra force. So I dunno.

and comparing this bump to the bump with Triple H that was obviously planned with maximum safety in mind

Well if the second bump was planned, u'd think taker would've moved the chair outta the way first, too much of a risk to leave it on there knowing Foley was going 16 feet into the ring on top of it with such velocity, doesn't seem smart to me.

Foley says in his book and on one of his VHS's that the throw off the cage was planned as an attempt to top the HBK fall.

This

Second bump wasn't planned. Foley has said this countless times.

It's obviously blurred.

I know the first bump was planned. I wasn't talking about that. My question deals solely with the chokeslam through the cell down to the ring and the alternative plan they may have had in mind.

Not planned. Dunno. wouldn't have nearly as cool whatever they did I'll assure you.

Yeah exactly which is why I had the question in mind in the first place. What could they have possibly done to get down from the top of the cell that would've been exciting or believable? Just climbing down wouldn't work.

It would work, just have been boring. When Foley got thrown off they weren't supposed to go back up you have to assume. But with his brain being all fucked I really dont think he was plannig to far ahead. The rest is history...

How much after the first bump through the Spanish announce table was planned? If bringing in the stretcher and having Foley get off the stretcher to prove his toughness was part of the plan, it would seem silly to not have the next step planned. Alright Mick get off the stretcher aaaaaand improvise!

The stretcher wasn't planned to my knowledge...

*wasn't

To me this match created a disappointment for me in the HIAC matches to come. Both of Foley's bumps in this match gave me a want to buy PPVs when a HIAC match was to be broadcasted. However, no one would ever be as crazy as Foley. After each HIAC I would be upset becuase no one was thrown off or put through. The WWE reshaped my mindset though when Brock Lesnar wrestled Taker in the cell. They made me enjoy HIAC matches once again, though nobody took a hellacious bump.

Lesnar/Taker was sooooooooooooooooo good.

I swear to god I read or heard somehwere Foley wispered to Taker to throw him off when they were up there. grrr, I'm going to find this.

Also, this was the first match where Foley wore a shirt over his Mankind gear. Probably to hide the padding!

Foley and Taker agreed that to top the original hell in a cell match, a good way to start it would be on the top of the cage, and also with a huge spot. The start was planned with him throwing Foley off the top. It then would have wound up in the cell or whatever.

However, as we know that first fall was a lot further than they thought it would be, and he landed badly. After being knocked out, he impulsively went back up there to restart the match up on top where it was supposed to start.

As you could see early on, the roof of the cage wasn't supporting the weight of the two sizely men. The cell had never been traveled to the top of, so it wasn't engineered for that. They had no clue it would be so vulnerable. As you can see a few times they almost go through on their own weight and begin to use careful footing on the structural beams instead of the chainlink panels.

The chokeslam, which was pretty dumb of them (especially the conscious taker) knowing the weakness of the cell just from their own weight, naturally broke the cage material and he fell unexpectedly to the mat.

And in response to whoever said it was rigged with hinges, you are wrong. The future hell in a cells that used the same spot were hinged. This one was purely an accident, and as you can see the cage rips and doesnt do so very neatly.
It appears the cage was attached to the structure with twist ties, probably metal ones.

Firstly, this was only the second Hell In A Cell match anyway. And secondly, Taker and HBK battled atop the cage during the first one, so you're wrong on that count.

I thought they only made it to the edge of it?

They tussled for a little bit, and the bump was off the edge. HBK tried to climb down, but Taker stepped on his hands and made him fall.

Okay. This is a pair of screenshots I took from the Undertaker Tombstone DVD.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...dious/hiac.jpg

The things I've circled in red seem to be plastic ties, and they seem to be what was holding the roof up.

Yea. It was a mistake. I don't think that thing was meant to hold two 300+ pounders on it, let alone one of them thrown onto it.

This match is 15 years old. DAMN.

Still so many unanswered questions y'all.

Motivation for bumping this thread: http://deadspin.com/hey-its-15-years...-thr-611685778

They grow up so fast.

I remember reading somewhere that the match was actually supposed to end with the first bump, and that's why 'Taker was climbing down the side of the cell. Foley didn't want to disappoint the fans, so he went back up to the top. It's been years since I read that though, so I could be mistaken.

No that was planned too.

So is it going to be Mark Henry VS. Undertaker at Mania in a cell?

Mick will be scheduled to be the guest ref but he will die due to poor health a few weeks before 'Mania.

Classic Mick. Always willing to put over the other guy.

He sensed that Bearer's death was a boost this year, he's just a team player

The WWF ring at the time had much less give than it does today. I can't for the life of me think that the spot was planned. He's lucky he's still walking.

If it was planned, Foley would be best served going to his grave saying that it wasn't. It just adds to the mystique of the match. Why ruin that?

He got thrown off the top of a cage through an annouce table and then bounced off the ring later. Pretty much anything he could say wouldn't ruin it.

Such a hard bump:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/7977...ugh-cell-o.gif

<MARQUEE>DEFINITELY PLANNED</MARQUEE>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DjQTK_MpFXc?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QfFl_rAH4Ig?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway

As far as adding to it though... I mean, the discussion of whether it was planned or not is what's got us talking about it right now. It definitely would add to the mystique if it were planned to never admit to it and keep people guessing.

Would it really though? Is someone's DVD purchase based on whether or not the second bump was planned?

No but my youtube views are

It definitely adds to the mystique of it. I didn't say it would be a big plan to make more money off of it or anything. But like I said, we're having the discussion 15 years later about whether that bump was real or not.

I was actually just looking for his book because I don't remember him mentioning it in there. That is a pretty big sign if he didn't. It would also make sense that as the legend of the second fall being unplanned grows, he would go along with it.

Who is driving the debate though? I pretty much bought Foley's story from the start. Hell, upon my 68th reading of Have a Nice Day I probably had created memories of the match that didn't belong to me.

So your proof that he's lying is because sometimes people lie.

Gotcha.

I think some people want to believe so badly that they're in the know that they invent controversy where there is none. It can't be that Mick Foley legitimately could have died in the ring that night because of an unplanned accident, it has to be that it was all part of wrestling magic. Wink wink.

It's a business that was built on blurring the line between fantasy and reality. I don't think CSL was saying that to prove his point. He was saying it to explain that Taker's words shouldn't be taken as proof either. It's far from illogical to doubt it when people say "No, THAT wasn't part of the script, though."

And like I said, I don't remember Foley mentioning that it was unplanned in his first book and I don't remember hearing about it supposedly being unplanned until years later. If he didn't mention it until then, I definitely call bullshit.

I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.

He doesn't ever say it was planned.

Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all say it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

"The cage ripping and giving way was a complete surprise to both of us, and it did a lot of damage."
-Mick Foley 2004

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway 2002

"The props guy didn't rig it properly, so when Undertaker gave him the choke slam, Cactus went right through the roof"
-Terry Funk 2006

Who the fuck would lie about something like that? What benefit would there be to it?

Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.

I still love this post.

the concept of kayfabe appears to be completely and utterly lost on you or you have no idea what it really means. Yes, everybody knows it's scripted, especially in this day and age but that doesn't mean it's an open book. Jesus christ, it's blatantly a planned spot, the entire match structure builds up to it for fuck's sake. Do you really think there'd have been the world's weakest looking chokeslam planned AFTER that first bump? That makes as little sense as the your posts right now. Look at how the spot comes about, straight up, grabs him, chokeslam, practically out of nowhere. No thoughts of anything else because it didn't matter, get to the big bump already before you have chance to 8th and 9th guess it and wind up making it even worse. Foley doesn't even come off his feet because he's looking to protect himself and take the safest possible bump through the cage. Next thing you'll be coming in here asking whether Hogan really tore every muscle in his back slamming the 900lb Andre the Giant at WrestleMania.

why the fuck would he be all "yeah, that was planned" if some people think there's a chance it might not have been? Just because the business has been exposed to an unprecedented level over the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that every person inside of it is willing to share every detail anybody might want to know. In fact if anything, it's things like this that are the exact opposite of that, where guys almost get the chance to revel in working somebody. What benefit would there have been for him to not lie about it? You work almost everybody you can as often as possible except for "the boys", it's practically a given right of being in the wrestling business.

this may be the stupidest post I have ever seen from you.

It was probably a weak looking chokeslam since they both couldn't stand the same panel at once.

LOL, It's still real for CSL, dammit.

I've never seen people try so hard to make people who disbelieve a baseless conspiracy theory feel like they're dumb. I include 9/11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers and Chem-trail experts in that statement.

Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

CSL: I too will take the truth to my grave. *crosses fingers*

Mick Foley: Who the fuck are you?

Terry Funk: Some British Vanilla midget I picked up. Don't worry guys, he'll protect our secret...FOR THE BUSINESS!

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.

CSL: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

Also: "That which can be asserted without proof is kayfabe, and also yeah, of course almost killing Mick Foley was part of the plan for the match."

This is a very ironic thing to say considering he's on the side of "it wasn't real, dammit"...

Well, Hogan did say it, therefore it's been proven as fact. I mean... what reason would he have to lie???