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There Might Be A Single World Title Again
There are said to have been discussions among at least one or two people within WWE creative about the idea of building up to a single world title and champion who would headline every PPV and defend against wrestlers on both brands reports The Wrestling Observer Newsletter. The reason this has been discussed is that back in the time when titles were over with wrestling fans they knew who "the champ" was as there was only one top guy. This doesn't happen now with two separate world champions on two separate brands.
Since the creation of two world titles, one for each television show, many feel the company essentially created two Intercontinental champions instead of two credible world champions. The basis for this is that in the 1980s the Intercontinental title was used to main event house shows and drew well, but on its own wasn't going to sellout major arenas. While some title matches in the brand era have drawn well, most haven't meant a thing when looking at PPV buyrates. The general feeling is that the generation of wrestling fans today no longer see the world title as fans may have 10, 20 or even 30 years ago. Instead they see it as a prop and nothing more. It should be noted that when this idea was brought up to Vince McMahon he was said to be completely negative on the idea. So it doesn't appear there are any plans to go in this direction anytime soon. http://www.wrestleview.com/news08/1229895504.shtml |
I wouldn't mind seeing a top champion, and then making the US and IC titles as the top titles for Raw and Smackdown respectivly. ECW Title would stay ECW of course.
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I can see Batista always challenging when the Champ has to face someone from RAW. Him and his 326,458,521 rematch clauses.
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As long as there's a roster split, a shared title is dumb.
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<font color=goldenrod>Good, I liked how it was when the split first happened with a champion that floats between shows.</font>
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I don't see how having a shared title is dumb. It accomplishes several things. Firstly, it does give you a definitive top guy. Also, I am sick of Triple H being called a "twelve-time WWE Champion" or "twelve-time World Heavyweight Champion" depending on which title he is going for. No, he's a seven-time WWE Champion and five-time World Heavyweight Champion. If the belts were unified, there would be a WWE World Heavyweight Champion, and Triple H can call himself a twelve-time that. It also smooths out the resume of guys like The Undertaker, Chris Jericho, Edge, John Cena and Shawn Michaels -- people who have held both "World Titles."
The only problem it leaves schematically is that you historically have to note the history of the World Heavyweight Championship and WWE Championship being separate, so people can understand that there were two sort of "twin" titles to go between the brands. As it stands, though, the line between the WHT and WWE Title is already blurred, though. Another positive of it, is that it moves up the priority of all the other singles championships. The ECW Title is no longer the "third belt," but a special sort of niche belt for the ECW brand to wield as its own. It'd technically be the second highest belt in the company, I assume. The Intercontinental Championship and United States Championship would then also gain more status, as when a SmackDown! guy is challenging for the WWE World Title, logically an IC Title match should get high play on RAW. It would also make for a big PPV event. The crowning of a WWE World Heavyweight Champion would make for an event that your average wrestling fan "can't miss." Yes, it's a one-off payday, but it could work out to be very momentous for the WWE when John Cena wins that title. And yes, you know it's going to be him that does it. |
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That would be wise, considering you won't likely hear the end of it, even when not applicable. But, if you disagree with KK, he perceives it as arguing with him. Because I've come in and said that, you won't get an earful, but you could have expected some kind of sarcastic comment in your direction.
I'll take the brunt of it now, because I'm good that way. |
The WWE has really dug themselves into a shit hole over the years with this mess of a roster split. It will take a long time coming, if ever, before any title in the company has any credibility.
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Hope they make the World Champion represent all the 3 brands whereas have the Intercontinental, United States and ECW Champions exclusive to their brands.
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Each brand has it's own audience. A portion will be universal, but many only watch "the good one", whichever that may be in their eyes. With a champion of each brand, as opposed to a champion of the company, the selective audience can enjoy their program without having the other shows thrown in their faces. The counter argument would involve the Rebound segments, as well as the inability of the creative teams to work with the wrestlers on their rosters and the illegitimate necessity of cross brand promotions. But that would happen, regardless of the top title situation. In fact, most of that happens due to the limited number of of tag titles. This has been going on for years, making the "Draft" the most impotent thing in WWE history and probably the warm-up to try to make the pitch for a floating Champ to Vince, anyway. I suppose, if they cut down to one Top Title, they should cut to one Tag Title, as well. That would only make sense. Then your floater champs would kind of make sense. Then the Divas "title" goes away and we get a floater Womens champ that we can not watch on every show. And then, we get to the point where we eliminate the brands entirely, making it one show, three times a week. Then "the good one" is gone, as well as, arguably, 2/3 of the roster. |
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I wanted this since they made 2 world titles.
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I'm just saying KK isn't challenging noid in this thread so far. Noid has started taking pot shots, and soon KK might deside to answer the pot shot, then noid will play the "every one is ganging up on me card."
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Afterlife is spot on with his Chicken vs. Egg comment. Only, the round one thing is probably a few hundred behind on the count... |
If they do it, they're still going to need a top title per brand ANYWAY. It also means one brand loses a world title feud for months at a time. There's really no reason to do this as long as the split is intact as there are wrestlers showing up on either brand whenever they like anyway.
And before we get into it, ending the brand split is impossible with the size of the WWE's roster. |
K, don't come crying to me when he retorts.
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In essence, this is only superficially a "similar situation." It's similar in the sense that there's a proposal that would make a multi-brand title and there was once a territorial system in NWA. Despite Noid's comments, this isn't disregarding your statement or history or logic. Hell, part of history is understanding that if the basic findamentals change, so does the outcome. Applying logic requires one look at the history in question, and how things might have changed since them. In fact, in the spirit of keeping things logical....I'm just going to start ignoring Noid. So if you want to carry on, feel free. :D |
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Also, I'd like to throw out there that I can actually see the WWE running a test for this with the Tag Team Titles. John Morrison & The Miz have "officially" taken the belts over to ECW with their latest win, and are still being included in their roles on SmackDown!. How long do you think it will be before we see John Morrison & The Miz bump into Carito & Primo Colon backstage, and we see a match for both sets of titles? |
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Why is it a stupid idea? The ball is still in your court. |
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First of all, "the last time it was done" was at the very start of the brand split. There had not been three World Champions between three shows. There was one between two. There was also one Women's Champion between both shows and one set of Tag Team Titles between the shows. There was no US Champion, and things were generally out of balance. It is a different lay-up, and it made people question why there was a brand split at all. Having one World Champion between two different shows, otherwise with their own title hierarchy is actually a lot different. We're almost seven years on from that moment, which is when Jim Cornette, who knows a lot more about the business than any of us here, suggests that angles can be safely re-tried. My question still stands, but is a little modified: Why is it a stupid idea NOW? |
Because the last time WWE did it, it killed of rating and ppv buys, that is why.
The harder I think of it, the worse of an idea it is. First off you couldn't have lengthy feuds over a title because thec champion would be bouncing back and forth between brands. I would propose a test run with someone winning both titles but them being seprate titles, instead of being an undisputed champion. If that works, then maybe unify. But really in the long run, a single champion for 2 brands probably won't work so hot. |
The biggest problem here is the feuds. Everything else is secondary. If you do this you can have up to and over four months without the title on a brand, which is completely unacceptable in this day and age. Likewise to shortening feuds to one or two months.
Yes, you can elevate the midcard title, but what's the point when you already have two top-tier titles? This also kills WrestleMania's main event entirely for one brand. |
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I still maintain that the last time the WWE did it, you cannot argue that the buyrates went down because there was one champion between two shows. The whole concept of the roster being divided roughly in half confused the crap out of people. Yes, a practice run first would probably work best, but that's what the WWE could do with John Morrison & The Miz with the Tag Team Titles. I also wouldn't put it past them to do that first. Perhaps with the Money in the Bank winner next year winning both their home brand's title, and then going over to the other one and winning that one. Sure, one title between two shows means that RAW will miss out one month while SmackDown! gets the next month, but just how well are stories built up in today's landscape? Not very well at all. If you're worried about RAW vs. SmackDown! vs. Champion matches, we've pretty much got Triple Threat Matches happening every PPV main event at the moment, anyway. |
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If you're pumped, fine, but I can't help but think of it as "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." |
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Plus as Xero said, it would leave one brand out high and dry every mania. |
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I've also felt the whole concept of a WrestleMania main event has lost so much meaning over the years. Two titles matches at WrestleMania? It's just not special. The Royal Rumble has suffered, because the idea used to be that one guy would get to go on and main event WrestleMania. Now the Rumble winner doesn't even get to do that some years. In fact, the Rumble winner hasn't headlined a Mania since 2005. The Rumble winner would be from one brand, and they would get the title shot. Maybe even have the Rumble winner shift between both brands, to really hype the WrestleMania main event? |
Noid, you are so fucking retarded.
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Too many top guys/egos now. You really think Dancing Dave or Trips are going to take a backstep and feud over the US title or something instead of the big/spinny belts. Never going to happen. Enough people round here bang on about how the roster split created stars. Batista, Cena erm....yeah. Those two. One title and many of the youngsters/deserving guys get lost in the shuffle as Cena vs Batista part 8902932 takes place. Where would Orton go? Would be subjected to the overused already '8 man battle royal'/tournament to face John Cena every Monday after the PPV? Punk, Kennedy, MVP, Christian, Regal - upper midcarders that could step up to main event would have little or no chance of doing so anymore. You want to see promising stars leave or start to phone it in - then this is the way of doing it. I'd imagine that talent morale would drop through the floor at the thought of this. Hell, Christian left because he was told he'd be midcard for life in a two title situation...where would the others go? Say Batista off Raw is facing Cena for the Undisputed Title at a PPV. What happens on SD during that build up? Cena turns up and beats MVP, Carlito, Jeff Hardy in that three weeks whilst on Raw they build their feud. Batista might 'invade' SD and attack him a couple of times. Not much for SD viewers to buy into that month. Then the next month it happens on Raw. One cross brand title will not work on a brand split. It would make one show a month boring, unless every PPV has a triple threat match as the main event. This idea only has any way of working (imo) if you had the brands working as one against each other. But then, you are back to the ego problem, the big star problem and you are pretty much getting rid of the brand split. |
I don't get this whole "it didn't work last time" thing. Yeah, it was clunky last time, but who says it'd play out exactly the same? You actually have supporting titles now, and a belt floating between both brands would be far more special.
The egos, you might have a point with, but guys like Jeff Hardy got a crack at the title then. It may drive home the point of ECW being more of a "younger wrestler league," but guys would ultimately get built-up more. Sure, Triple H has an ego, but he's not WWE Champion right now, is he? He's learned to bow-out from time-to-time. And a guy like Mr. Kennedy could get as much mileage out of headlining house shows and main eventing PPVs for one brand as IC Champion as he could being World Heavyweight Champion in a two-man act. |
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Things would go much smoother if you read what I had to say before bitching me out. Merry Christmas. |
The thing is, it's the way the titles being booked that makes them look weak, not the titles themselves. Just combing the titles isn't going to magically make the booking better. In fact, I believe with good booking this problem of the two titles looking weak would disappear.
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What the fuck does that mean noid? Despite what everyone else claims, I'm not a redneck as I don't do physical labor.
Also, don't you see the brand split is the only protecting the lower midcard right now. If they got rid of the brand split, the shows would start looking like the current ppvs, which isn't a good thing. Every show would be dominated by Taker, Edge, HHH, Orton, Cena, Batista, Jericho, HBK, Kane, Bigshow, and maybe Khali. Guys like MVP, Kennedy, the Hardies, CM Punk, and Miz and Morrison might find there way on occasionally. The rest of the roster would probably be cleared out. |
If your goal is to save the lower card or make the US and IC titles look relvent, the key is to book exciting fueds and matches with the undercard featuring the US and IC titles, not combining championship and joining brands. The problem is neglagance and bad booking, not too many titles.
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Well, you'd hope so, anyway. |
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I'd also like to say a lot of the argument seems to assume a fair and equitable split. I doubt that's ever going to be the case with a single shared title. Imagine Triple H or John Cena holding the title for a protracted period. It's easy if you try.
It's also going to lead to the same four challengers across multiple brands. This is most probable. I know if you slap on rose-colored glasses, it's easy to disregard that the roster split was supposed to fix the main event scene, and it really didn't. It's easy to pretend they won't push the same guys on both brands, but they've done that on and off during the roster split, and there's ample reason to believe they will do it again if they have a single big belt. There's no real reasoning that dictates it'll be any more fair than the usual round of WWE booking, save for wishful thinking. |
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I completely disagree on the point about the brand split ending. |
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And then there's the full pressure of the champion having to carry the shows. If ratings go down because Cena or Triple H are boring as champion, then the WWE would be forced to make some changes. It may not happen right away, but I think things would become slightly more diplomatic over time, out of necessity. But I'm just playing devil's advocate. It's only guess work you can do in this situation. |
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It's all a fabulous idea, elevating the midcard titles - but to what? Can you honestly see the likes of Trips and the rest feuding over it? Orton vs Batista at Wrestlemania for the IC title? Never. Going. To. Happen. |
I would be content if they went back to Lesnars WWE Title
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Also, why would it become dilpomatic as long as Vince is in charge? Where are you coming up with these notions? Certainly not on past events. |
Also, depsite how you (noid) feel about the IC/US title, they are lower card titles.
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Also, I explained why it could conceivably become more diplomatic. The WWE is in crunch time, and if they put all their eggs in one basket, and it doesn't work, it's time to get a new basket. There is shared responsibility in the current WWE landscape, so Triple H failing as champion means we could see it just two months later. And my point is that the US Title and IC Title shouldn't be lower card titles. Not that they aren't. Although, I would definitely argue that William Regal, CM Punk and Shelton Benjamin are not lower card wrestlers. |
But they are.
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And if the damage has been done to the US and IC Titles, then couldn't one make a case for the damage already being done to all the other titles? |
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Excuse me while I branch off topic for a second..
Noid, although I have watched BDC and KK rip into with a smile why are you seriously jumping on every and I mean EVERY post they make in this thread? Do you want them to rip you a new asshole? Do you cum in your pants when you go to your User CP and see they have just replied to a post you made? |
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A single world title would not make the undercard more relevant, in fact it would push the undercard off the back burn and into the trash. The undercard and the undercard titles are like tire on a car, and currently the tire is flat. You are trying to repaint the car, put in a new engine, and upgrade the stereo by unify the mainevent title. None of that addresses the problem of the flat fucking tire. Paying attetion to the undercard, booking matches with rising stars and veterans that aren't going anywhere is the key, not ignoring it an fucking up the mainevent. |
I want to put my 2 cents in here.
The way I see the WWE set up at the moment, In terms of titles World Heavyweight - Looks the best and has the most history since there were two titles put into service/ WWE - Because the thing looks like a joke. --- Intercontinental/ECW - I put them even, because uppercard/upper mid-card guys are fighting over them. US - Not as much prestige as the above titles, never seemed to have it. World Tag Team/WWE Tag Team - About the same really Womans - Has not been very exciting since Trish left. Cruiserweight - Meh Divas - ... |
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What, I've been cussing him out and calling him an idiot at every turn.
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Nazis.
This thread and discussion are officially over now, right? You're welcome, Lux. :D |
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The Tag Titles situation further blurs that messy line. It suggests that anyone from ECW can just go wherever he wants for a tag title shot, because ECW isn't "real". Same with the US title being on ECW with Benjamin for so long. It shows that you don't need to belong to a roster to be eligible for the rosters prize. It makes no sense, and looks really haphazard. |
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HITLER!!!!!
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Someone please summarize this entire thread for me, I don't feel like reading. D:
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Never.
OK, mostly the proponents of the title unification states the lower titles will become more relevant and it would freshen up story lines. The people against unification are stating it didn't really work the first time around. It will completely bury the undercard. One brand will be screwed out of ppv matches every month. Story lines and fueds will be rediculous. And the only way to have 1 title is have 1 brand. |
What's this "it would freshen up storylines" and "lower titles will become relevant" bullshit coming off of? Logic? Past experience? Or did we just make it up?
Because really, it smells like bullshit to me. Unifying the titles wouldn't be enough incentive for WWE to do any of that, to be honest. |
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It's really no different from how things worked in 2002, until HHH was handed the World belt. I think it could work nicely. It'd be a return to titles meaning something. It'd not only make the WWE title mean more as the lone top belt, but it'd in turn help the IC and US championships. They should do the same with the Tag Team titles too. I don't see how it's a bad thing at all. It's better than the current state of things, and although it's not as good as one singular brand/promotion, it is a step in the right direction. It seems to be happening slowly. First, it was the sharing of talent and rosters more generously from brand to brand. Then the PPVs being merged. Now, the titles. It's only a matter of time before it all ends up under one tent again, if these steps continue. Even if 2 brands having access to one world title is a bit of a clusterfuck, it's LESS of a clusterfuck than 3 world champions running around at PPVs and supershows. If they're going to have tri-brand ppvs, which they have to do to business and talent depth, there needs to be one world title and less shared importance on the card. If the champion is going to be on all the shows, so will his compettitors. There'll be interweaving fueds. Main events will be far better. The pool of challengers will increase, and matchups will be less repetitive. I think it's a great idea on all counts. |
How are there 3 world champions running around? ECW isn't a world championship. It is higher than the midcard titles, but not a mainevent title.
Unless I am mistaken, they had brand specific ppv when there was only one world title. Vince already said he doesn't like those and they were losing money. |
The title situation and the distribution of power and prestige regarding belt holders and status is a big mess, no matter what discourses we all take.
Some of us might mock the ECW title, and others might defend it. Some may prefer the Raw belt to the Smackdown belt, or the WWE belt to the Big Gold belt. Everyone has an opinion on the current setup with titles, but the bottom line is it's confusing and controversial at the very least. I think no matter how you slice it, it's flawed as it is. I say, simplify, and restore meaning to THE world chamiponship. Whether it's defended on one universal brand, or two coexisting brands is really just another can of worms. Making some progress with this problem is better than none at all. |
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I fail to understand how the current title situation is confusing? Cena is the WHC, Jeff Harvey is the WWE Champion, Matt is the ECW champion, which is less in status to the WHC and WWE champion. Regal is IC, Shelton is US, Beth is Women's, Miz and Morrison have the Raw Tag titles, The Colons have the Smackdown Tag Titles, and some dumb hooker Undertaker is fucking has a big metal butterfly. How is that confusing?
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Just about the unified champion "killing ratings and buyrates", what have the ratings and buyrates been doing since WWE had two champions? GOING DOWN! I figured KK would know this since he hates wrestling, doesn't watch wrestling, but keeps track of the real ratings that he can't provide a source for.
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With all the group fueds, and triple threats they book around the world titles as it is, it wouldn't be hard to consistently involve both brands in the world title hunt.
There'd also be no shame in one of the shows taking short breaks from direct world title fueding. Often times, the shows focus on non-title fueds as it is. It's not like main event fueds over the past few years have been over the world title exclusively. Look at this past summerslam, Edge-Taker and Cena-Batista took priority over all three world titles. It's not rare. |
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Also, it creates discrepency over who "the champion" is, and what the championship means. It's too much. It's just a mess to have three world champions. It's an oxymoron. The goal of being a champion is to be the top dog, not part of the top 3 dogs. It's flawed. Do you realize how many times I've watched Wrestlemania or Raw with people who say "so wait, who's the champion?" and when I explain it, find it completely absurd? That's not the reason I'm arguing for simplified world title status, but rather just an example. It's problems go much deeper than that. |
You don't give the "casual fan" enough credit. It is less confusing than how Noriaga is interm heavywieght champ and Brock is real heavyweight champ in UFC.
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It's also ridiculous to call one title WWE championship, as if the other show wasn't part of the WWE.
In addition, the other is called the world championship, as if the other title wasn't world status. The only world title that has a logical name is the ECW world championship, believe it or not. If it's WWE, there should be one WWE champion. As it is, there's a Raw Champion, and a Smackdown champion. The WWE champion is a false title. Unless they want to call Smackdown or Raw by a different name, like WCW or some other promotion operate outside of WWE, the WWE Title should speak for the whole company. |
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That system is derived from boxing to begin with, as well. Wrestling is different. Unless they want to set up weight classes and function like a legitimate ring fighting sport, it's a terrible comparison. |
I think one title would be a good thing.
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Oh, well then UFC has a problem too. Just because UFC has that problem, doesn't absolve WWE. That's what you call an appeal to an innapropriate authority BDC. It's a completely irrelevant argument.
If UFC jumped off a bridge, should WWE too? |
Jeritron, BDC is talking about the whole mess in the UFC with the Heavyweight title. When Couture walked out, they crowned an interim champion until Couture returned to fight. Couture lost the "real" title to Lesnar who will now face the winner of Mir and some other guy for the "interim" championship. The winner of Lesnar vs Interim Champion will be the undisputed Heavyweight champion. It is hard to understand how there can be 2 heavyweight champions when one is the "real world title" and the other is just a "part time title".
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Sounds like HBM and Razor Ramon. Enjoy that controversy, but it really doesn't have relevance here. It's also an isolated incident, correct? If so, that's not a case of analagous title systems, but a temporary problem in one.
I see what you're getting at by citing that, but them having title confusion doesn't clarify any problems in this debate. It's really another issue altogether. |
They do it quite a bit in every division any time Dana White gets his panties in a bunch and wants to act like he is Zeus of MMA
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So is that stuff a work or not? I don't follow it, but some of my friends who do are becoming increasingly suspicious that it's at least semi-worked
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I've speculated that it is, but it really just depends on who you ask.
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If its on TV there is a 50% chance it can be a work.
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It is becoming what boxing has become. The championship matches and big main events aren't about finding out who is the best fighter at a certain weight class, instead it is about who can draw more money. Brock Lesnar got a title fight after only 3 fights with a 2-1 record (1-1 in UFC). While I understand business, for a company whose whole marketing angle is that they are the only legit combat sport in the world, it seems a little questionable. Especially considering the reason Couture left was because he wanted to fight one of the best fighters in the world (no dispute about that), but Dana White wouldn't do it because he wouldn't draw flies on shit in the US.
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It's speculation, but it's based in logic. Also, with less titles the IC and US titles would account for more. There'd be less room in the main event for as many talents to be used at once. There is past experience to base this of off. Did you watch wrestling in 2002, or in any of the years prior to that? |
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