UFC runs a better wrestling company than the wwe does
 

Think about it... at most, 2 shows a month and 80 per cent of the shows are very good- excellent.

The build up to the big fights is usually about 5 months. The results actually mean something. When someone goes over the top and goes apeshit (see Brock Lesnar and Dan Henderson this past saturday) it actually means something because people don't see it every single fucking week. When guys actually have a feud, people really care about it, there is actual emotional investment. Again, look at Bisping vs. Henderson, the young cocky upstart running his mouth against the aging, much respected veteran who people were questioning. The way the fight ended was definitive and unpredictable. If you want to see heat about something go into the mma forum and see how much people are going nuts about the controversy.

There's drug tests after every fight. There's bonuses for submission, ko and fight of the night. There's insentive to perform. It doesn't matter if you're the top guy, you can get knocked off at any point, one punch changes everything.

Big signings actually mean something, because they can actually succeed because it's really up to them how they do.

Most importantly, MMA holds the inpredictability wrestling so desperately craves.

Essentially mma pretty much nabbed the attitude demographic, the demographic that craved the in your face unpredictability that wrestling used to offer.

The undercard fights actually mean something as well. Every fight has implications one way or another, there's never a throwaway fight.

Vince needs to start taking notes.

Plus they have Joe Rogan.

I dont think the two are that comparable. The UFC can do what they do because the competitions are real. The emotions for the most part are real.

WWE is entertainment.

There are still similar platforms. As Dave Meltzer said, you are still selling characters. People wouldn't care about chuck lidell if he wasn't the ice man. People wouldn't care about Brock if he wasn't a wild card, rabid animal. People wouldnt care about Rampage if he wasn't a wisecracking negro.

The main difference is MMA is a an actual combat sport while WWE is a staged exhibition..

You ever heard the saying "you couldn't make this stuff up", well that right there is why WWE will never have the emotion and unpredictability that UFC does..

Plus, Joe Silva (UFC's head match maker) knows the sport through and through so that's why you get so many great match-up..

Also, this

The element of realism is key... but again, that's what hurts the wwe. Suspension of disbelief is one thing, but when everything flat out insults your intelligence is makes the viewer not want to watch.

UFC is kicking their ass in ppvs because they are building compelling fights that mostly deliver. And they build their fighters well and they build their fights well. It's not EXACTLY the same thing, they just have similar platforms.

If WWE managed to make everything mean something like everything means something in the ufc, and made things unpredictable like it used to be, they'd be way better off. I mean right now they don't need to since they're the only show in town and running a successful business, but still, for the sake of the viewer.

Just because it's scripted does not mean it has to be lame and predictable.

I think Joe Rogan would have to pay alot of fines if he were in the WWE, if you know what I mean.:shifty:.....

Bottom line is, WWE will never be what UFC is.. Just step way from the darkside and into the light.. I did as soon as WWE acquired ECW (IMO the greatest prowrestling promotion of all time) and made it garbage..

No.

Also this belongs in the MMA subforum.

Ouch

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In the sports forum cause you know, MMA is a real combat sport..

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EXTREME hugging.

Also, still a Subforum.

Now get back in your boat and out of my forum.

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http://www.mmaturf.net/dev/smf/galle...08_1_41_06.gif

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I'm not the one talking shit.. I started posting here when pro wrestling was still entertaining.. Haven't watched for years and only come in here when MMA is being discussed..

WWE will never be as good as ufc that's for damned sure.

lol tho I must say I like wrestling when it is at it's best... so I don't understand when pro wrestling fans get all butt hurt over comparisons to MMA.

I watch both, But Dale and Krispix are totally right. Funny thing is, it's not like MMA just showed up one day and took WWE's audience. The 'E has been doing everything it can to kill its own product for years. It all started with the botched Invasion, then super saiyan HHH for years, Randy Orton's premature title reign, putting a stop to Paul Heyman's great booking, the watering down of Cena, etc, etc and here we are in 2009. MMA went from human cockfighting to a legit sport with a HUGE worldwide following and WWE is for kids again.

Especially considering most who post on this forum don't like the current product... and most who watch the ufc who aren't total marks for "pure mma" (ie. huge homos) love the ufc.

You'll find more fans of mma satisfied with the ufc than you will of pro wrestling fans satisfied with the wwe.

Its that sense of entitlement that the wrestling folk have. The one that causes them to get all "butt hurt" when someone comes down on WWE.

Dale is on the mark here. UFC successfully marketed to the disregarded attitude era types and gave them something real, flashy and most importantly exciting.

As a wrestling fan for a long time, I definitely find that UFC gives me what Vince doesn't.

lol my favourite thing the IWC believes is that Brock was foolish to walk away from wrestling because he couldn't handle it. LOL he's a thousand times more famous and more respected now than if he stuck with wwe.

If Brock was in the WWE stll he wouldn't be highlighted on ESPN....


But anyways, it's like the ufc is a pro wrestling company (because they have such a similar platform other than real meaningful results) but with an air of actual legitimacy. If WWE actually tried to figure a way to make itself come off as legit (and there are ways) it would be such a better product.

For Sure, Brawl For All was very legit and it came out great..................didnt it?

I'm not saying legit as in real results and real fights. I'm saying adding an element to realism to the product.

Blading isnt allowed anymore, they are getting everything censored, so realism isnt their thing, its mostly stories and acrobatics, and they are making money so good for them

lol again you're totally missing my point. Realism isn't "blading". Realism is something like making match results mean something as opposed to just another angle. And not having phony, shitty angles like HHH attacking randy orton in his home. It's really not THAT hard.

But I can see your mind is already made up so have a good one buddy. Keep watching John Cena pander to 8 year olds and enjoy yourslef :)

Your wishing for better, more compelling angles, not realism. Which is what most fans complain about.

ROH! ROH! ROH!

Fuck u czwfans come say shit now.

Yea........................................................................... The 1950's and before hand just called. They want their "It's a real sport" mindset back.

I'll give MMA and UFC all the credit in the world. These guys are REAL FIGHTERS, WHO ARE OUT THERE TO HURT PEOPLE.
WWE, on the other hand, are athletes who are there to put on a show, and are trained to protect each other in a very physical environment.
UFC is based on athletic performance.
WWE is based on telling a story.


It's like you're saying "Pepsi runs a better supermarket than the supermarket because they have better soda than the supermarket." Well it's a damn shame I have more than just cola on my shopping list.

*EDIT*
And one more thing.

No it doesn't. :mad:

This is a wrestling topic.

Fly, I respect you modship, but this guy is clearly praising UFC (that is a real sport, mind you) with a very thin thread of "logic" to intertwine this into wresting. He could write the same thing about UFC, but replace UFC with Hanson concerts, and still have the same amount of topical text on wresting as he compares it to Hanson concerts.

This is not a wrestling topic. MOVE IT.

People acting more realisticaly to situations. I figured it was realism


And this is a wrestling topic, because I want WWE to take notes from UFC on how to run a superior product. MMA is so much like wrestling it is ridiculous.

Good old butt hurt wrestling fans... so typical.

Interesting Bread.

UFC has been building for over 15 years though to where they are now, getting stronger with each year. It would be very hard for WWE to adopt UFC's exact style and to stay in business. What would they do with their TV shows? I think the audiences still want to see wrestling each week. What do you think they should do in general? Introduce weight classes etc?

They don't have to introduce weight classes. But I mean having divisions wouldn't hurt anyone... an IC title division with top contenders and so forth... and world title division etc... and a cruiserweight division so we don't have to see stupid shit like the big show vs. Evan Bourne.

I think NWA used to have a ranking system for who was in line for title shots. That makes every match actually mean something.

Alsol you don't have to have heel turns every 2 weeks, and tag teams always breaking up. More is less, and less is more. If you hold back on all the zany shit and try conduct it as an actual business and not a fucking freakshow, people will buy into it.

I mean think about it... Anderson Silva was the UFCs sweetheart... all it took to turn him heel was 2 shitty, god awful fights, now everyone wants to see him get beat more than anything in the world. He didn't hit anyone with a chair, he didn't curse the fans week in and week out... all he did was fight boring but still be the best. WWE obviously can't emulate this exact thing, but it's subtle. You could even parallel his heel turn to CM Punks ongoing heel turn. CM Punk didn't necesarilly do anything over the top or out of the ordinary, he just happened to do a few things to piss off the fans, now they boo him. They don't need to force everything the way they do without any rhyme or reason. Honestly, Smackdown is the only show that has a style anywhere close to resembling what I'm talking about. Competitive, athletic matches, for the most part realistic angles (other than pretty ricky :| and kane being involved in anything).

And I realize there's an IC title "division" but not really. It's jsut a bunch of random matches thrown together. If you actually selected a bunch of guys and palced them into the division, ranked them and had them wrestling for title shots every week, and to make there way up the ranks every week, it would make everything mean something. It'd make it seem like legit competition, even if it's "fake", people would still be interested.

It's like you're telling 7up to take marketing advice from Jack Daniels, while you have no legitimate experience marketing beverages. While they do have some similarities, it's still apples and oranges.

UFC is real.

Such a stunning addition to this thread. Quite profound. Mere words cannot express the excellence in your articulation. While one could make the argument that we have a modicum of gauche logic in our leitmotif the foundation of our argument remains the same.

However, there is one person who'll disagree with the separation of UFC and WWE.

Dale, you have a hell of an ally in this man.

No matter how real the ufc, they are still marketing characters, just like the wwe does. To not see that is completely blind.

I would compare it to Labatt taking advice from Jack Daniels. Beer and hard liquor, they aren't exactly the same but they have many, many similarities. Namely, they both get you wasted.

Also, since you're completely out to lunch I guess I should let you know, MMA's deepest roots are from pro wrestling. Listen to the Bill Simmons podcast with Dave Meltzer. Though I guess you know more than him as well.

It's more like if he was telling Coke to take advice from Royal Crown after RC managed to overtake them in almost all respects.

Pro Wrestling and UFC, like it or not, largely have the same audience. WWE still trumpets their appeal in the adult male category, because that's their core audience, even if it's no longer their target audience. I know this whole thing asks you to go beyond your childish sense of "self-entitlement=reality," but try for a moment.

The platforms, while "different" in your own estimation, can benefit greatly from one another, or in this case, one can benefit greatly from the success of the other. Just because one is an actual sport, and the other is for guys who aren't ready to come out of the closet does not mean that lessons learned from one cannot be applied to the other. This has already been covered in this thread, to which the only rebuttals you seem to be able to offer break down into "that's different, damn it!" Which really isn't true. Not in any meaningful sense.

Lesnar (and maybe Rampage) are the only characters they are marketing, most of the other guys they market are great fighters with personalities ( you know, something that people tend to have).

Some of the guys that were in Pride did pro wrestling for money not because they wanted to market themselves at characters. Sakuraba was one of the few that came from pro wrestling to "shoot-fighting" and he still wasnt a character, just a great fighter.

Lulz you have no idea what you're talking about. Just because someone isn't completely over the top does not mean they aren't a character. Sakuraba had the flash and finesse of any character. Josh Barnett, the baby faced assassin? The guy is a total pro wrestling character, he knows how to pander to a crowd as well as anyone. Wanderlei the axer murderer Silva? They fed the guy a bunch of Japanese cans to turn him into the most terrifying man in MMA, his character is that he's a fighting machine.

UFC? Matt Hughes is a character, a classic heel, but well respected nonetheless. GSP is a classic baby face, people don't cheer him because his matches are overly exciting, since they're so one sided, they cheer him because he's pure class inside and out of the octagon. The Iceman Chuck Lidell? Purely a character, he's known for the one punch knockout, that's what people associate with him, that's his character. Lyoto Machida just brought Karate back... he cut a beauty promo after his fight with Evans, now the fans love him. He represents something they loved as kids, in karate.

Randy Couture? The old man, the grizzled veteran that you always want to win. Nogueira? The classic beaten up punch drunk warrior who never backs down from everyone and always fights back.

Most of these guys are characters, they aren't playing one in all cases, they just ARE characters. It's how you get behind fighters. It's why certain guys can't headline shows, because no matter how fucking good they are, they are just too boring and don't appeal to an audience.

Use your fucking head and stop talking out of your ass.

People are so scared of admitting pro wrestling and mma are alike... I just don't understand why.

UFC 100 sold over 1.5 million beating out the three of the WWE biggest PPV's of this past year combined..


* WrestleMania – 970,000
* Backlash – 185,000
* Judgment Day – 235,000

Sorry for getting technical and throwing facts around..

Also, stfu with this moving this thread to the MMA forum shit.. This is a topic where Jewstead is saying the WWE should follow what Zuffa has done with their product.. This is about changing prowrestling and not MMA..

Yeah UFC outdrew WWE huge with that number. Think about where people are putting their money. Both ppvs are for about 40 bucks, and people aren't going to pay 80 bucks for both ppvs. People are dishing the big bucks for UFC and not for the WWE. I WONDER WHY. It must be because the two producst have absolutely nothing to do with one another :|

K. We're just gonna spam the MMA subforum from now on. Thanks.

lol you're such a fuckwit

Do you not realize I'm a pro wrestling fan? Like are you all actually retarded?

And we will ban you..

:kiss:

GO for it.

I'm not gonna get you banned if you don't break any rules..

Pretty sure the lead UFC has in PPV Buyrates is completely killed and then some by WWE's lead in merchandising. Just throwing that out there. I think WWE needs to do some things UFC like though. Promoting win/loss records being one.

On top of that, UFC having more PPV buys might actually have something to do with it not being visible 4 times a week on free tv, therefore forcing people to actually pay to see it...

Both of those statements are bullshit..

I see alot more TapOut shirts around these days than John Cena shirts.. Also, some form of MMA is on tv every day whether it is UFC Unleashed, TUF, WEC, HDNET Fights, Bodog, Fight Zone TV, etc, etc, etc..

How many times can you see Brock Lesnar fight on free tv between PPV fights?

Possibly 5 cause that's how many times he's fought MMA.. Actually, 4 cause his first fight was in K-1 which Zuffa doesn't own..

I've said they're alike.
Coke and Jack Daniels are both beverages.
Apples and Oranges are both fruits.
Yea, I had an abstract meaning with my metaphors, but it's not my fault no one caught on.

However for as many similarities they have, they have even more differences. One is a show, one is a contest. One has corporate sponsers plastered in the middle of the ring, the other has a clean ring. One is based around people trying to hurt each other, the other is based on people trying to look like they're trying to hurt each other. One championship means your the best, the other means you're marketable. One only has action inside the ring, the other can have home invasions.

Do I need to go on?
So let's make WWE more like UFC, and it'll go bankrupt. If they based things even halfway on athetic preformance then their top stars would need to find work elsewhere. The main event will be polluted with a cornucopia of people that most fans don't care about.
In addaiton to that 2 or 3 shows monthly will prevent anyone from making any money. Let's go ahead and make Noid's wet dream come true and give Val Venis a major title, and watch everyone lose shirts.

Apples and oranges.

Also, if you're not a wrestling fan then why are you here? Don't spam this board just because you're butt hurt because MMA is a subforum while wrestling has more than one forum.

You know that people can't actually fight that many times and not have severe health problems, right?

That is the only drawback to real fighting. The way some of these guys are, if they could do it every day, you know they would. But they can't, not without getting brain damaged. Never mind that it's on pay per view.

The point of this thread is to look at WWE's shortcomings and how they've allowed MMA to take their place. At the height of the nWo, I had a wolfpac shirt and you know what used to happen? Every time I wore it, didn't matter where I was people would throw up the wolfpac hand sign or the 4 life hand sign. Complete strangers. I could wear a WWE shirt now and people would just be like "you big gay."

WWE got complacent once they were on top with no competition. They stopped trying to be the best because they were the best on a technicality. They started putting a stop to all the things that made them great. They held down a lot of people and elevated other just to be fed to HHH. Meanwhile, MMA was picking up in the rest of the world. UFC was reorganizing into a legit organization with weightclasses, rules and real athletes. Where were all of Kurt Angle's contemporaries going when he was on top of the WWE? MMA. It was slowly rising in popularity, while WWE had been steadily losing ground.

And it wasn't from competition. They were doing it to themselves. And then it happened: Spike TV, looking to fill the gap left by the WWE signs with the UFC. Now there's UFC Unleashed, UFC's greatest Knockouts ,UFC Fight Night, The Ultimate Fighter. Hell, they've even shown PPVs held in Europe for free on Spike. Now how do you beat marketing like free PPVs?

I mean, it's not like the WWE isn't trying with the cash giveaways, Donald Trump and celebrity hosts, but it's a case of one step forward, three steeps back. It's not enough. And St Jimmy, #1-wwf-fan, 450 and IRodC, we don't say these things because we want the WWE to fail. We say them because we want them to do well. We want them to be exciting and entertaining. Why wouldn't we? We're wrestling fans. If I weren't I'd be posting at The People's MMA Website.

The only thing worse than arm chair booking by fans is arm chair marketing by douche bags who aren't fans.

I'm not saying "shame on UFC for not having it's guys fight twice a week." That's exactly why they don't fight three times a week. But that also means when they do fight it's going to cause people to spend money on it because that's their only opportunity to see them.

Really it's simple stuff like 3 on one attacks should be complete domination. That's what would bring an element of realism back. WWE should book using logic. If A happens, than B should ensue. If person A beats person B, than person A is better and should be in title contention where as person B should not. I think you guys are completely over-reacting to good 'ol Crashbang and that's really all he was implying.

You can see Brock Lesnar fight 5 times on free TV between fights? :wtf:

It's not even a case of changes to product, so much as it is a need to refrain from hurtful practices:

-They need to build credible new stars. They put the title on Benoit after a 6 month build and it was epic. They put the title on Randy Orton out of nowhere and watered him down and it failed.

-They need to give the core audience what they want. The core audience has always been yound men. What do they want? Action. That doesn't mean you can't have Cena and Mysterio pander to the kids, it just means let's not make it the major focus of the show.

-Let's have a little less holding down of people who you don't personally like even though the fans are all over them. No more RVDs and Chris Jerichos being overlooked despite being the most popular guys around. If the fans want them, then push them. Don't cut the legs out of the pushes unless the fans cool off on them. Or better yet, take them in a new direction and try to get the fans back into them. Look what it did for Christian.

I'm neither arm chair booking nor am I arm chair marketting. I'm pointng out what's worked and what hasn't. Call me all the names you like, but the WWE has steadily lost ground between the attitude era and now: FACT. The UFC and MMA in general has been steadily rising in that time: FACT. The UFC exploded in popularity since signing with Spike TV: FACT. I'm not trying to say wrestling sucks, because it doesn't and fuck anyone who says so. I'm saying the WWE is digging a hole it can't get out of and some of the solutions to its problems lie in what the UFC is doing. Note that I said some. Answers and inspiration can come from strange places, so is it so hard to believe that the UFC might hold some of the solutions to WWE's problems?

Correct. No more super saiyan shit. Come on. We're not asking for much here.

They showed his title win against Randy Couture just yesterday.

If they decided to highlight him on UFC Unleashed, yes..

Not really "free tv" anyway cause it's cable..

And you don't need to watch guys fight 3 times a week in the UFC, you know why? Because every match matters! There are title implications in every single match, that's the other thing WWE misses. You know that 85% of their shows are just throw-away matches.

With that, I don't need to see Brock fight every week, because I know when I see Cain fight that it's building towards a fight with Brock. Their midcarders matter.

WWE biggest problem has been occurring since they publicly focused RAW as their flagship show which means every year or when they do trades, they keep weakening their other shows when RAW seems to be getting stale or when Smackdown seems to be a better show than RAW.
They were on a decline once they bought WCW and ECW but its not until they focused on the Brand split on just RAW that most of the current problems that could have been fixed seem to be still going on.

Yeah, there's some stuff on both sides of the argument I agree with. WWE really could do with throwing some logic into their booking in order to be bought better by the fans, etc.

But I'm also with #1-wwf-fan on the fact that while UFC 100 apparently way out-bought WWE's big PPVs this year, there is a crapload more to the WWE as a successful wrestling company than just PPV buys. They run way more TV (and movies and books which has pluses and minuses), way more merchandise sales, etc.

Vince judges how well he's running the WWE through profit earned. I have no idea what the UFC is like with regard to profit, but I don't think the WWE would be too far behind... if not ahead.

I can spam, too.

No..

UFC has a highly rated reality show which runs up to three seasons a year, live fight nights every few months, Unleashed, then specials like Ultimate Knock Outs, Top 100, etc etc etc.. As a sponsor, UFC gets revenue from companies like Full Contact Fighter, TapOut, Throwdown, etc etc etc.. On top of that are the PPV which have been murdering WWE's for the past 3 years or so..

Another uneducated mark, speaking out of turn..

This topic is a lame flame war. Congrats.

Also, Forrest Griffin just released a book, which I'd def buy of a John Cena book..

Every post you make is a lame flame attempt so you are fitting in well..

Calling UFC a wrestling company is an inaccurate statement.

UFC and WWE are on completely different wave lengths, and are comparable only in the fact that one is a combat sport, and the other is plays the part of a combat sport. The UFC isn't producing characters in the same sense that the wrestling does. Fighters characters are who the fighters are or choose to be. Dana White didn't sign Rampage for his ability as a character, he signed him because he is one of the top competitors at his weight class.

UFC is a legitimate combat sport, the WWE just plays one on TV.

Real sports aren't entertainment? Why the hell do you watch then?

You are right on one thing though. They aren't comparable. UFC absolutely kicks their arses on PPV and that's where the money is made. UFC can break the 1 million buys barrier on PPV and WWE never will even if they add every international buy they can.

You can't explain this logic and expect wrestling marks to understand.

Same with the Sherdog nut huggers too.

lol it obviously isn't an actual wrestling company I just named the title as such to emphasize my point mon ami.

Dana also puts Rampage as a coach on TUF because of his personallity as well as his abilities as a fighter. Why do you think there are fight of the night bonuses? It's because these guys first and foremost are there to put on a show.

The point is that if WWE treated its own product and fans with more respect and realism, they wouldn't be sucking.

WWE needs to be cutting edge and up to date with modern day styles and influences. But they have ZZ Top on Raw this monday night. Says it all.

what was the ppv rating for ufc 99? figures 100 would have a big number just because it's 100.

Anyone who thinks the real/fake thing makes this different has their head up their own arse.

I feel like this thread is gonna get out of control very soon.

About 380,000. This was for a European show that was broadcast outside of the normal UFC timeslot and never had a solid marquee match. And it was a North American rating. Only Wrestlemania came close to this.

Why? The only problem I can see is the wrestling marks defending WWE like it's their child. They forget everyone posting here at some point actually liked wrestling. Most who stopped watching would LOVE to be able to watch something that entertained them. The wrestling marks (for lack of a better word) can't grasp this.

ufc has a slightly different demographic than wwe though tbh. it obviously has it's wrestling crossover but then you're gonna find it has the boxing fans too and perhaps people into martial arts films. lot of people at muay thai had no time for wwe but were plenty interested in mma. people want to see what works.

didn't know that :$ 98?

lol